BAC/Sud Aviation Concorde - Development, Variants, Projects

[blackkite]

http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/documentation/plans/

"The Super Caravelle is a project studied in common by the French companies South-Aviation and General Aviation Marcel Dassault (GAMD)

The first for his knowledge of civil transport aircraft, the second for its supersonic jet expertise.

Average plane supersonic mail, the Super Caravelle had to be capable of carrying 82 passengers over a distance of 3500 km.

Designed in 1961, the Super Caravelle was to succeed the legendary Caravelle and gave a first draft of what would become the Concorde."

This 1961 Dassault design had four engines.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Source ; Avion Concorde
Bristol 223 wing was twisted same as Concorde.
Sud Super Caravelle had double delta or ogee wing.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
This Bristol 1961 design had 6 engines and double delta wing without twist. Is this plan called Type 198?

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=10397&start=2940&hilit=mey

Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Type_223
"STAC
By 1956 there was enough official interest in this research for the Supersonic Transport Aircraft Committee, or STAC, to be formed under Sir Morien Morgan to investigate the creation of a supersonic transport. Its first report, in 1959, recommended two designs. One was an M-wing Mach 1.2 medium range airliner and the other a straight wing, Mach 1.8 design with six wingtip engines. Soon after, however, studies at the Royal Aircraft Establishment began to favour the gothic delta and design contracts using this planform went to Hawker Siddeley and Bristol in late 1959. Both were asked to look at both Mach 2.2 aluminium alloy and Mach 2.7 stainless steel structures. Bristol's Mach 2.7 design was labelled the Type 213. Their designer, Archibald Russell, was influenced by the constructional problems and expense encountered with the Bristol 188 and favoured the lower speed alloy aircraft.

The thin wing design of the Type 213 was preferred by the STC and a 1961 contract encouraged a detailed series of studies of a 130-seat, Mach 2.2 aircraft powered by six Bristol Olympus engines under the generic Type 198 label. Aware of the great expense of the project, STAC required Bristol to share the cost with an overseas partner. In 1961, Sud Aviation revealed their plans for the Super-Caravelle at the Paris Air Show, a smaller aircraft than the Type 198. Bristol proposed a design which came between the Super Caravelle and the Type 198 which they called the Type 223; the French were looking at a slightly larger version of the Super Caravelle and the two companies had a specification for agreement to build an aircraft jointly. Throughout 1962 they and their respective governments negotiated the formation of a consortium to share development and production costs, estimated at £15m-£170m.On 29 November 1962 an agreement was jointly signed by the UK Minister for Aviation, Julian Amery and the French ambassador, Geoffrey de Courcel and the Concorde project was underway.

hesham-san's great contribution.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783307.pdf

 

[blackkite]

Russian site say thta this is Type 198. (Early type 198 design?)
http://testpilot.ru/uk/bac/223/bac223.htm

Owner's great contribution.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/cp/0815.pdf
Type 198 SST topic.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2319.0.html


Another information.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/aircraft/types/type-details/aerospatialebac-concorde.htm
"The Bristol Aircraft Company had been a leading player in developing a workable aircraft configuration for STAC, producing several successive designs under the generic label Type 198. In 1959 further contracts were awarded to continue design studies and by January 1960 the Type 198 had evolved into a shape recognisable as an ancestor of Concorde. It featured a tail-less slender delta wing with a gentle curved leading edge, six engines in two groups of three in nacelles under the wing, and was to carry 136 passengers at Mach 1.8. A comparative study of a Mach 3 version (made of steel to withstand the increased air friction heating) was designated Type 213, but soon dropped as uneconomic."

 

[thrax]

thats why i love this forum

 

[blackkite]

Hi! My poor guess for Bristol/BAC SST design evolution.
Also please confirm page 5 of this topic.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Concorde prototype model and production model.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Concorde prototype and production model three side view drawings by Kikuo Hashimoto and Sachio Suzuki.
Especially Suzuki-san's twisted wing front view is excellent.
Hashimoto-san's prototype model front two window shape is little strange compared with actual picture.
There were only limited information, but Hashimoto-san struggled in order to approach the truth desperately.
Source : AIREVIEW MAGAZINE.

Concorde prototype pictures. I want to measure wing tip twist angle at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in Yeovilton, Somersetthere.
https://hiveminer.com/Tags/002,concorde

Heritage Concorde. You can see prototype Concorde nose motion movie.
http://www.heritageconcorde.com/who-built-concorde

Technical specification
http://www.concordesst.com/dimentions.html

Concorde bomber.
http://generaltate.deviantart.com/art/BAC-Concorde-Bomber-Bombcorde-387790402

Wing photo.
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/263516/f-wtsb-aerospatiale-aerospatiale-bac-concorde/

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)

Concorde - Endres, Gunter G.: 9780760311950 - AbeBooks

Concorde by Endres, Gunter G. - ISBN 10: 0760311951 - ISBN 13: 9780760311950 - Motorbooks Intl - 2001 - Softcover

www.abebooks.com

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Perhaps Pre-Production model three side view drawing.
http://www.british-caledonian.com/BUA_Supersonic.html

 

[galgot]

Hi Blackkite,
here you have a 360° view of the first prototype at Le Bourget museum :
http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/panoramas-360/360-cabines-de-pilotage/panorama-360-concorde-001-f-wtss/

 

[blackkite]

Oh my dear galgot-san!! Thank you very much for your super information.
Do you know overall length of prototype Concorde ? 184ft4.5in(56.20m)?

 

[Arjen]

Concorde Airframe

Airframe Dimensions

www.heritageconcorde.com

First and second prototypes:

Shorter fuselage and only small windows in metal nose visor.

Larger passenger cabin windows.

Olympus 593-1, 2B or 3B engines

OVERALL LENGTH – 51:80 M

FUSELAGE MAX EXTERNAL WIDTH – 2.88M (9’5”)

FUSELAGE MAX INTERNAL WIDTH – 2.63M (103’:4”)

FUSELAGE MAX EXTERNAL HEIGHT – 1.96M (77”)

WING SPAN – 23:80M (83’10”)

 

[blackkite]

Thanks a lot Arjen-san. I feel 51.8m is little short.

WING SPAN – 23:80M (83’10”) is mistake. 83'10" is 25.552m.
FUSELAGE MAX INTERNAL WIDTH – 2.63M (103’:4”)???

 

[Arjen]

I will have look at my books to determine what went wrong with the wing span figures. If I remember correctly, the prototype was considerably shorter than the pre-production aircraft - which, in turn, were a little shorter than the production aircraft.

 

[Arjen]

Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1966-67 gives 58.24m length, 25.50m span in SI-units.
Oddly, in Imperial measures it gives 194 ft 10 in length, 83 ft 10 in span - which, with a conversion factor of 2.54 cm to 1 inch, translates to 59.39m length, 25.56m span.
Image from reply #77 shows 3.73m as the difference in length between production tail and prototype tail:

I'm guessing 58.24m is closest to reality.

 

[blackkite]

HmHmHm..........
Thanks a lot Arjan-san.
I feel this drawing for Concorde production model is reliable.
Overall length is 61.661m(202ft4in), Span is 25.6m(83ft10in).

File:Concorde v1.0.png - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Production model nose down video.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9yAROE3s1M


Pre-production model nose down demo.(Please take care about short tail.) So pre-production model nose shape is same as production model.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oiv4249sRU

 

[blackkite]

Concorde prototype roll out video.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHnYtiP-9Fw


Concorde prototype construction video. You can see wind shield moving mechanism. (1:05 to 1:48 and 3:42 to 4:00)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOh2nl5TdIM

 

[blackkite]

Prototype nose pictures.

F-WTSS (001) | heritage-concorde

www.heritageconcorde.com

Interesting videos.

Concorde nose

Design and operation

www.heritageconcorde.com

Interesting information.

Concorde Nose and Visor

Engineering of Concorde nose and visor

www.heritageconcorde.com

Nose design evolution. Production/Pre-production model nose is longer than prototype.

Concorde Nose and Visor

Engineering of Concorde nose and visor

www.heritageconcorde.com

 

[blackkite]

I found another drawing for production model.

http://concorde.moitry.fr/francais/contenu/detailstechniques.asp

Perhaps main cabin length is common between prototype, pre-production model and production model. Pre-production model had short tail, if production model overall length is 62.1m, pre-production model overall length seemd to be as follows.
62.1m-3.73m=58.37m (191.5ft) (There are another data, 193ft and 194ft)

Concorde Airframe Design and Development

Concorde Airframe Design and Development

A survey of the CONCORDE supersonic transport aircraft programme has been made, starting from initial studies in the late 1950's and ending with the proposed developed type B version. The survey covers the aspects for which aerospatiale in France was responsible, with only a minimum of r

papers.sae.org

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
British Aircraft Corporation: A History
Stephen Skinner

British Aircraft Corporation

The British Aircraft Corporation was formed from The Bristol Aeroplane Company, English Electric, Vickers-Armstrong and Hunting in 1960. In its short, seventeen-year, life, the British Aircraft Corporation built some of the most important aircraft and missiles of the 1960s, 1970s and beyond: its...

books.google.co.jp

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)

Concorde - Endres, Gunter G.: 9780760311950 - AbeBooks

Concorde by Endres, Gunter G. - ISBN 10: 0760311951 - ISBN 13: 9780760311950 - Motorbooks Intl - 2001 - Softcover

www.abebooks.com

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)

Super data.

 

[hesham]

From Air Enthusiast.

 

[blackkite]

Is this aircraft also Bristol design? I feel Armstrong Whitworth.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=728.0;attach=579949;image

Home

"Much more radical however was the W wing model, effectively like two swept-forward plan forms on either side of the fuselage and combining the proven advantages of a swept or delta wing with aerofoils closer to the front of the fuselage to enhance low speed handling. A similar effect is nowadays achieved by the use of canard foreplanes such as those found on the Eurofighter Typhoon, although back in the 1950s the W wing was seriously considered by the Bristol Aeroplane Company. "

ARC-CP-773 Free Flight Measurements of the Drag and Longitudinal Stability of a Transonic M-Wing Aircraft.pdf

ARC-CP-773 - Abbott Aerospace UK Ltd

Free Flight Measurements of the Drag and Longitudinal Stability of a Transonic M-Wing Aircraft

www.abbottaerospace.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

JALプラザ有楽町、東京～ニューヨーク線50年を振り返る展示企画。12月29日まで実施 JAL仕様の「幻のコンコルド」を展示。歴代制服を着用したスタッフが接客

JAL（日本航空）は12月15日～29日の期間、東京都千代田区のJALプラザ有楽町において、東京～ニューヨーク線就航50周年にまつわる当時の航空券や機内誌、搭乗客へのプレゼント品、さらに「幻のコンコルド」のモデルプレーンなどの展示企画を実施、JALグランドスタッフの歴代の制服を着用したスタッフが接客を行なっている。

travel.watch.impress.co.jp

PLAN CONCORDE BAC SUD AVIATION by olivelebasque on DeviantArt

olivelebasque.deviantart.com

 

[blackkite]

"DOCAVIA CONCORDE(ISBN 2-84890-000-8)" says about this aircraft that....

"Before concluding an agreement with Sud Aviation, Dassault has studied an independent draft, an 82-seat aircraft. The wing is the homothetic, Mirage Ⅳ, designed shortly before."

Side view of this aircraft in DOCAVIA CONCORDE is little different.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=180.0;attach=1257;image

I feel French wall is unreasonably high!! Why?

 

[blackkite]

Wind tunnel test model picture and line drawing of this aircraft is different. ???
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=180.0;attach=130029;image

 

[blackkite]

Super contribution!!

Another site.
http://enperspective.pagesperso-orange.fr/pd.html


On the other hand, "FRENCH SECRET PROJECTS Post War Fighters" says that this is Nord's vision of a Mach 3 aircraft had evoluved into this design powered by four turbojet engines. ???
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=180.0;attach=1257;image

 

[blackkite]

Re: Super Caravelle

I believe someone has three side view drawing of this design. 457 wing and airintake looks like MirageⅣ

http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/documentation/plans/ Low wall? ;D

"The Super Caravelle is a project studied jointly by the French companies Sud-Aviation and general aviation Marcel Dassault (GAMD)
The first for his knowledge of civil transport aircraft, the second for his know-how in the field of supersonic aircraft.
Supersonic medium-haul aircraft, the super Caravelle was to be able to carry 82 passengers for a distance of 3500 km.
Designed in 1961, the Super Caravelle was to succeed the mythical Caravelle and gave a first draft of what would become the Concorde."

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD53Er62GrE

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSQ2EGDoh4

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bjzoh3iQJc

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2UbR3CVOs

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAFGBbU0f5g

 

[blackkite]

Concorde wing.

Concorde wing

Description of the Concorde wing

www.heritageconcorde.com

"The separated vortex flow represents an alternative method of lift generation. The airspeed in the vortex is high, and so the pressure is low. Thus, lift is still produced by exposing the upper surface to a low pressure than the lower surface; this low pressure is produced due to the vortex motion above it.
At low angle of attack the generation of lift is the same as in the convention wing the effect of vortex lift comes into play only in high angles of attack."

Vortex lift.

What is vortex lift?

In a recent question I asked, I was given an answer by Peter Kämpf and he described something about lift being created by a vortex used on delta wings and the Bird of Prey wing. How exactly does v...

aviation.stackexchange.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpd506RpSU

 

[blackkite]

Very famous Concorde fuel transfer system.

Concorde fuel transfer

A description of Concorde fuel transfer systems

www.heritageconcorde.com

 

[hesham]

From Le Fana 389.

 

[VictorXL188]

Further to the posts showing the various customers which eventually cancelled their Concordes, I thought members might like to see this taken from an article written during my time with Aerospace Publishing, and published in an aviation part work magazine, which unfortunately never saw the light of day apart from in two areas of the UK.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Two side view of Caravelle S and TWA Museum Guides Blog.

TWA Museum Guides

Welcome to our very first article on the TWA Museum Guides Blog. We're excited to bring it to you. It was inspired by the museum's recen...

twamuseumguides.blogspot.jp

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

CONCORDE S.S.T. OF BRITISH AIRWAYS & AIR FRANCE

Concorde was the only successful SST (supersonic transport) ever existed . The SST was a join-venture project between the government of t...

langkasa-norul.blogspot.jp

Variable exhaust nozzle.

Concorde Exhaust

Description of the Concorde exhaust system and buckets

www.heritageconcorde.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Concorde wing.
試作型 : prototype, 量産型 : production model.
Source : Aireview magazine 8/1971.

 

[Arjen]

Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)
https://www.abebooks.com/9780760311950/Concorde-Airliner-Color-History-Endres-0760311951/plp

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)

Super data.

Prototype Concorde 001 F-WTSS dimensions on Musée Air + Espace site:

Envergure : 25.56 m [Span]
Longueur : 56.24 m [Length]
Hauteur : 12.11 m [Height]

Pre-production Concorde 101 G-AXDN dimensions on Duxford Aviation Society site:

Length : 202 ft 4 in (61.66 m) [61.67 m assuming 1 inch = 2.54 cm]
Wingspan: 84 ft 0 in (25.60 m) [25.60 m]
Height : 40 ft 0 in (12.20 m) [12.19 m]

 

[jsport]

Wasn't there a bit recently on BBC radio about someone trying to raise money for a new concorde?

 

[blackkite]

Thanks alot Arjen-san. Pre production model length(Pre-production Concorde 101 G-AXDN dimensions on Duxford Aviation Society site) is little long? Pre production model had short tail.