BAC/Sud Aviation Concorde - Development, Variants, Projects

[Archibald]

According to Key Publishing (I just hate this forum, so don't ask me why I browse there!) there had been studies for an improved concorde.
- No reheat
- another stage compressor on the engines
- 25% more range
- leading edge slats
- more fuel
Of course, this went to nothing because of the economic failure of the concorde.
I really want to know more about that, but I have doubts on the engines (The olympus was pushed to its limits, and on this case they get ride off the afterburner? ? bizarre!)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Reheat on the Olympus was only partial, and not used during cruise. With some increase in dry thrust, it could be removed.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

http://www.concordesst.com/concordeb.html

 

[Archibald]

With the improved range (up to 5000 miles or 8000 kms) could Lufthansa (or Swissair, or other "central-europe" based airlines) used the Concorde from Germany, flying at subsonic speed over France?

 

[elmayerle]

what areas were filled with the movable leading edges? the whole le. or just a portion?

I'd guesstimate that the straight section of leading edge wss the main portion that was moveable. Trying to do that on the rest just starts getting messy to deal with aerodynamically.

 

[PMN1]

CONCORDE SST : CONCORDE B

Does anyone have any other information on a proposed Concorde B that would have removed the need for afterburners?

 

[elmayerle]

In all honesty, I'd love to see a detailed comparison between that upgraded Olympus and a dry P&W JTF16 (their losing SST engine). Without the need to go Mach 3, they might well have been able to meet the Concorde B's requirements in a dry condition. Since this engine would already be a turbofan, it might contribute to further noise reductions.

 

[PMN1]

Elmayerle has mentioned on my repost of Concorde B

'In all honesty, I'd love to see a detailed comparison between that upgraded Olympus and a dry P&W JTF16 (their losing SST engine). Without the need to go Mach 3, they might well have been able to meet the Concorde B's requirements in a dry condition. Since this engine would already be a turbofan, it might contribute to further noise reductions.'

This would be interesting, we could have a scenario of a US engine manufacturer supporting a foreign aircraft - not so strange now but back then.....

 

[flateric]

Concorde B topics megred. Enjoy.

 

[Rafael]

Yeah, I know I'm an ignorant, but since I read here that the Concorde B's engines would not have reheat, ¿would it then be possible to design such an airliner around the new crop of super-cruising engines, working without after-burning to achieve supersonic speeds?

Rafa

 

[elmayerle]

Elmayerle has mentioned on my repost of Concorde B

'In all honesty, I'd love to see a detailed comparison between that upgraded Olympus and a dry P&W JTF16 (their losing SST engine). Without the need to go Mach 3, they might well have been able to meet the Concorde B's requirements in a dry condition. Since this engine would already be a turbofan, it might contribute to further noise reductions.'

This would be interesting, we could have a scenario of a US engine manufacturer supporting a foreign aircraft - not so strange now but back then.....

Well, at the time UTC had a minor share in SNECMA, so they could've supplied the data that way, much as JTF10/TF30 data was supplied earlier.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the BAC 223 SST aircraft are well known aircraft which later
become the Concorde.

http://www.translate.ru/url/tran_url.asp?lang=ru&direction=65538&template=Default&autotranslate=&transliterate=true&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etestpilot%2Eru%2Fuk%2Fbac%2F223%2Fbac223%2Ehtm

 

[Just call me Ray]

Hi,

the BAC 223 SST aircraft are well known aircraft which later
become the Concorde.

Not entirely. The best features of the BAC 223 were combined with the French Super Caravelle to create Concorde - basically the wings of the 223 with the fuselage of the Caravelle (increased in diameter)

 

[red admiral]

Preliminary aerodynamic models of Concorde showing differing wing/body designs from fully blended to historical. Text reads;

Wind Tunnel Models. These seven wind tunnel models demonstrate stages in the development of Concorde's ogee wing plan. A variety of forms were assessed to find the most efficient plan for this supersonic passenger aircraft.

The big model in front is a drop model, dropped from an aircraft and allowed to glide to earth to observe the aerodynamics.

Pictures are from Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton

More pictures
http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c84/AviationImages/FAA%20Museum/

 

[Jemiba]

Super Caravelle

"do you have the X-220 Super Caravelle projects ?"

In "Concorde" by Pierre Sparaco, Docavia several early studies of the so-called
Super Carvelle could be found, illustrating the way from a type, that really showed
the Caravell relations, over delat canards to the final formula, which became the
Concorde.

(from Aviation Week 18/1961 and the above mentioned book)

 

[hesham]

Re: Super Caravelle

Thank you my dear Jemiba,

and can I ask about if the X-230 and X-240 were also airliner projects or not ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also from Flightglobal;

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964%20-%201705.html

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I spoke before about the BAC-223 and the projects which
led to Concorde,here;

[link removed, topics merged - admin]

and from google,some early Concorde designs;

Avion Concorde

Un ouvrage historique et technique qui nous fait découvrir le parcours de cet avion hors du commun : la genèse du projet, sa construction en 1964, les essais en vol, la mise en service en 1976, l'accident du F-BTSC le 25 juillet 2000 à Gonesse et sa fin de carrière.

books.google.com.eg

 

[Grey Havoc]

Topics merged.
Hesham, please just add posts, if there already is an appropriate topic, instead of
creating a new one.

On the other hand, the search engine still acts up at times, so creating duplicate topics is all too easy.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783307.pdf

 

[toura]

From an old "Aviation magazine"

 

[GTX]

Wind Tunnel model of one of the early designs.

 

[Michel Van]

about the W and M wingform
were there feasible and how fast would the craft fly ?

 

[robunos]

Michel Van, see here :-

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/armstrong-whitworth-awp-22-m-wing-sst.13319/

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Michel Van]

THX Robunos

 

[hesham]

From an old "Aviation magazine"

For RAE SST proposal,please see;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2435.15.html

 

[dannydale]

The RAE SST thing looks like a Skylon with 1950s aerodynamics. ;D

 

[hesham]

Here is the Super Caravelle with nuclear battery;

Nuclear Powered Aircraft In Future? - Airliners.net

 

[Delta Force]

about the W and M wingform
were there feasible and how fast would the craft fly ?

I remember seeing this picture before and I recall the caption stating that the wing is actually on the same plane. It's simply a swept wing with an embedded engine, it's not a gull wing.

 

[Skyraider3D]

Wind Tunnel model of one of the early designs.

I photographed that windtunnel model just a few weeks ago. It's on display at the Farnborough Air Sciences Trust (FAST), a small, free entry museum next to the Farnborough airport runway.

There were various other models as well, some Concorde related, others appeared to be ground attack designs (including a nice and large Jaguar model). The M-wing was definitely the wildest one! Sadly it appears to have lost its tail fin. These models only recently went on show: http://www.airsciences.org.uk/fast_news_2013.html
Well worth a visit if you're in the neighbourhood!!

 

[GTX]

Re: Super Caravelle

See here for model of Super Caravelle - similar, if not identical to the delta version shown above. Also see here for some description including of proposed engines.

 

[blackkite]

JAL CONCORDE MODELS.

 

[galgot]

Found two images of the Super-Caravelle model :

and a plan showing the differences of the two projects Super-Caravelle / Type 223 :

 

[hesham]

Nice find Galgot.

 

[CNH]

Outstanding technically.

Economically, a disaster.

 

[Stargazer]

Economically, a disaster.

What is your definition of a disaster? An aircraft type that is used on regular schedules for 28 years hardly seems a candidate for this word to me...

Granted, it was not a high commercial success and probably cost more money than it made, but that's because the market wasn't ready for it (and also presumably the fact that the U.S., unable to develop their own competitor, banned supersonic airliners flying above American cities, certainly didn't help).

To me, a "disaster" is a type that shows a high accident rate early in its service life, or whose operational career is very short. The Concorde was a highly reliable aircraft with a long career, so to me it's not being fair on it to call it that.

 

[CNH]

£1 billion at 1960s prices for 16 aircraft?

Yes, an economic disaster.

 

[blackkite]

I fogot to tell you that she is little noisy especially supersonic cruise and landing.
When she wants to decrease speed at landing, she must increase the power. Concorde high angle of attack condition is draggy.
Generally people don't like this noise, nevertheless I love these exciting sound very much. ;D

 

[Richard N]

Economically, a disaster.

What is your definition of a disaster? An aircraft type that is used on regular schedules for 28 years hardly seems a candidate for this word to me...

Granted, it was not a high commercial success and probably cost more money than it made, but that's because the market wasn't ready for it (and also presumably the fact that the U.S., unable to develop their own competitor, banned supersonic airliners flying above American cities, certainly didn't help).

So, was Concorde allowed to fly supersonic over French cities or Europe?

There is a big difference between saying the US was unable to develop an SST and the US being unwilling to use taxpayer money to subsidize SST operations that were not economically viable. Should the taxes of people who could never afford an SST ticket be used to subsidize the supersonic flights of the wealthy if the SST operators could not run profitably?

 

[galgot]

Lol...


Anyway, fact is, it was a beautiful aircraft.
Funny , I remember reading that when they merged the two projects , they took the wing of the Type 223 and the fuselage of the Super-caravelle. Now seeing that plan above , i see the inverse for the Concorde.