Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

Mat Parry said:
Take a look at the pics Triton posted in reply #26 of the US Army Advanced Composite Airframe Program (ACAP) thread
I Think a UH-60 baseline is still the most likely story here but, I couldn't help look at the tailboom (particularly the "point" behind the vertical stabiliser) and think..... Hmm I wonder if that's a progenitor of the shaping used on Bin Laden's Hearse
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Funny you should mention these ACAP pics with regards to the so-called Stealth Hawk... On seeing them I also thought of this very topic, but not because of the tail... What struck me was the way the fuselage was faceted, in a way that predated the Comanche and of course the Stealth Hawk...
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Funny you should mention these ACAP pics with regards to the so-called Stealth Hawk... On seeing them I also thought of this very topic, but not because of the tail... What struck me was the way the fuselage was faceted, in a way that predated the Comanche and of course the Stealth Hawk...
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Rotor angles are a better clue ;)
 
ACAP has always in my mind been the most important clue to what the NEPTUNE SPEAR helicopter is. And in particular the Sikorsky S-75.
20 years beforehand Sikorsky took the twin turboshaft engines, transmission, and main and tail rotors of a S-76 and wrapped a new composite airframe around it. The 'Stealth Hawk' would appear to be the same thing done to an S-70. With a bit more focus on signature management.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
With a bit more focus on signature management.
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Horse hair, and Horseheads, have long been good for signature management.
 
I'd rather have a quiet helicopter than a radar evading helicopter. I spent a lot of time evading radars by keeping low and letting ground clutter help. Now even that does not help because radar can see things other than just the helicopter. Flying around with a noisy rotor system and turbine made it hard to sneak up on people.
 

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Yeah... that and the ability to do mach 1+
 
yasotay said:
Yeah... that and the ability to do mach 1+
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And telescoping cannon barrels.

In vague seriousness: I'm always impressed at just how freakin' loud modern choppers such as the Chinook and the Apache are. The Army does some practice out here in rural Utah due to the similarity in terrain to Afghanistan, and you can hear them coming many miles off. And yet... you'd see vids from Iraq & Afghanistan where an Apache is watching some dumbasses unload rockets and such from a truck, apparently oblivious to the fire-breathing death machine hovering within plain sight.

Huh.
 
The videos are shot from some distance, and there are probably helicopters all around. If you stopped doing things in Afghanistan every time you heard a helicopter, you would probably starve to death.

I don't know what the hills are like around you in Utah, but they can redirect sounds from low level flying machines quite nicely. Can you come up with a reliable bearing when you hear those helicopters?
 
Bill Walker said:
The videos are shot from some distance, and there are probably helicopters all around. If you stopped doing things in Afghanistan every time you heard a helicopter, you would probably starve to death.

I don't know what the hills are like around you in Utah, but they can redirect sounds from low level flying machines quite nicely. Can you come up with a reliable bearing when you hear those helicopters?
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Spot on. The new sensors on the nose of the AH allow them to see clearly what a target is or is doing from a number of kilometers. As Bill said they get used to the sound. In urban environments it can be overwhelmed by the city sounds. The videos you are seeing are the Darwinian losers. There have been a good number of videos also where a group of dudes staring at a spot on the road have suddenly stood up and walked away from whatever they were looking at on the road. Aircrews pleading with the lawyers at the other end of a radio that they were surely up to no good usually falls on deaf ears for lack of hostile intent.
My reasoning for liking quiet, is that aural acquisition is by far the most common initial acquisition means. If they don't know you are there they tend not to be at the ready to engage. One reason that I am something of a tilt-rotor fan is that when they are in prop mode (airplane) they are VERY quiet. I have been overflown by MV-22 twice and did not know they were there until they were literally directly above me. Once they transition to helicopter mode they are as loud as a helicopter, but if done right they are landing very shortly there after. I used to joke with my USMC friends that I could hear a CH-53E and take a nap before it came into visual range.
 
I remember seeing the XV-15 fly, somewhere around 1990. What stood out about it's performance to me was how quiet it was in flight. Even in helicopter mode it just sort of purred. Granted, it was much smaller and lighter than a V-22, but it seems to me that a very quiet TR could be built as a scout.
 
Bill Walker said:
Can you come up with a reliable bearing when you hear those helicopters?
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Sometimes. I live a big flat area with the walls of Mordor about 10 miles away. There is a set of low hills a mile away; that can mess with things, but often the choppers direction is pretty plain.
 
Theres little else of interest apart from (perhaps) when Stratfor's Fred Burton met some former SEAL's in Dallas (May 2011), and theres a hurried exchange of internal mails to Burtons Blackberry in a brief Q&A.

Some of it is highly questionable, however - some quotes...:

"60 is BRAND new"
"Mock up at Bragg was built inside a hanger"
"Stealth Little Birds floating with snipers nailed one in the yard"
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(https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/18/1896118_re-tactical-mesa-asap-any-questions-for-seal-team-6-devgru-.html)

But unfortunately also later...:

"Re 60, no stealth technology"
"New ECM technology to make it invisible"
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(https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/19/1956245_-tactical-seal-60-bird-and-blackhawk-crash-.html)

Before really ruining things with:

"Helo makes no noise"
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(https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/19/1966208_re-tactical-alpha-seal-60-bird-and-blackhawk-crash-.html)

To which a Stratfor Analyst (with some nonce) wakes up and says:

"nothing makes no noise. But significant reductions and changes in acoustic signature can be achieved that have real operational value and effectively achieve surprise, particularly at night and particularly when they don't sound like things people are used to hearing."
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(https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/11/1121723_re-alpha-seal-60-bird-and-blackhawk-crash-.html)

I mean really, is there nothing worth leaking any more??....
 
Mr London 24/7 said:

"New ECM technology to make it invisible"
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That would be courtesy of the Ace Tomato Company, which provided "EW" and "MASINT".
In quotes because these are new capabilities that don't quite fit those categories.
 
These guys are saying that GRASS BLADE started in 2007 (I'm pretty sure that was 1980's?) and that the operational name became TRACTOR PULL....

GRASS BLADE was the developmental nickname for two Black
Hawk helicopters built in secret by the U.S. Army Integrated Aviation
Systems 21 group, working under the umbrella of the Applied
Aviation Technology Directorate at Fort Eustis, Virginia.

For three years beginning in 2007, engineers and technicians developed
sound-dampening devices, mixed special resins and paints, and
laboriously and rigorously subjected the resulting helicopter prototypes
to radar and acoustic tests. Once assembled, the helicopters
were transferred to Groom Lake in 2010 and given the operational
nickname TRACTOR PULL. At Groom Lake, pilots from the U.S.
Joint Special Operations Command Aviation Testing and Evaluation
Group practiced flying them. To those who didn ’t know about
TRACTOR PULL, the gray helicopters often seen at the Groom
Lake looked like mechanical wolves and soon acquired the nickname
“Air Wolves.” Had the program been compromised, the military
would not have had a way to clandestinely transport Navy SEALs to
Abbottabad on the morning of May 3, 2011.
Click to expand...
 
Unfortunately most of that material is provably inaccurate.
 
quellish said:
Unfortunately most of that material is provably inaccurate.
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I don't doubt you, but I'm curious if you could point out some of the specific errors.
 
TomS said:
I don't doubt you, but I'm curious if you could point out some of the specific errors.
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Sure. 0604813A TRACTOR PULL was from the late 80s to 1992. 0604313A and 0603317A, GRASS BLADE was from the 80s.
In 2010 TRACTOR CARD, TRACTOR HIKE, TRACTOR ROSE, TRACTOR CAGE and others did exist, but not TRACTOR PULL as the author states (again, that was long in the past).
 
Weren't one of the parts found in the wreck confirmed to be manufactured in late 00s? Of course that alone does not prove this story though...
 
Quellish, I appreciate that. It's good info that probably just saved me from spending money on that particular book.
 
Black Dog said:
Weren't one of the parts found in the wreck confirmed to be manufactured in late 00s? Of course that alone does not prove this story though...
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Dates of manufacture on fragments from the wreckage were 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009.
 
I am sure the Pakistani Abbotabad commission report will be of interest to some:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/binladenfiles/
 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/jedi_ghost_seal_copters/


Interesting article.....
 
U.S. raid in Syria supported by secret Stealth Black Hawk helicopters?

By David Cenciotti
According to some sources, the evasive MH-X may have taken part in the raid that killed Islamic State member Abu Sayyaf.

In the night between May 15 and 16, U.S. Special Operations forces killed ISIS high level operative Abu Sayyaf, in a daring raid that took place in eastern Syria.

Little is known about the raid.

According to the CNN, the operation was conducted by U.S. Army’s Delta Force, which was carried to a residential building in Deir Ezzor, to the southeasth of Raqqa, by Army Blackhawk helicopters and Air Force CV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft.

It’s pretty obvious many other assets were actually involved in the raid, including support assets providing electronic support to the intruding choppers and drones, as happened during Operation Neptune’s Spear, for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

The presence of some Air Force Special Operations Command Ospreys during a raid against ISIS is not a first.

U.S. Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft probably based in Kuwait have already conducted missions in Syria and Iraq: on Jul. 3, 2014, some V-22 aircraft were used to carry Delta Force commandos to a campsite in eastern Syria where ISIS militants were believed to hold American and other hostages (that had been moved by the time the commandos attacked the site).

On Aug. 13, 2014, V-22s deployed military advisers, Marines and Special Forces on Mount Sinjar to coordinate the evacuation of Yazidi refugees.

What could really be a “first” is the possible involvement of the Stealth Black Hawk helicopter exposed by the raid in Abbottabad, Pakistan, back in 2011.

For the moment it’s just a hypothesis, but Homeland Security suggests that the Delta Force team were transported deep into ISIS-held territory “via presumably stealth equipped Black Hawk helicopters” of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) “Night Stalkers”.

The U.S. Army special ops force provides support for both general purpose and special operations forces. They fly MH-47G Chinooks, MH-60L/K/DAP Black Hawks, A/MH-6M Little Birds, MH-X Silent Hawks (the latter is an unconfirmed designation for the Stealth Black Hawk), maybe stealthy Little Birds and stealthy Chinooks, as well as MQ-1C Gray Eagle drones.

160th SOAR’s Black Hawk helicopters presence in the region was first unveiled after an unspecified variant belonging to the U.S. Army took part in an unsuccessful raid to free captured American journalist James Foley and other captives from ISIS in eastern Syria in August 2014.

Even though American aircraft have already demonstrated their ability to operate completely undisturbed well inside the Syrian airspace, we can’t rule out the possibility that the Pentagon, as done in 2011 when the time to kill Bin Laden arrived, considered the importance of the most recent raid against the senior ISIS leader and the failure of at least a couple previous raids, decided to commit the most advanced and secret Black Hawk helicopter to the delicate mission against Abu Sayyaf: the stealth variant.

http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/17/stealth-black-hawk-helicopter-in-syria/
 
So... Speculation.
 
And the only "source" Cenciotti cites is Homeland Security Today (he leaves out the last word to make it look like its some sort of DHS official source), which itself is only guessing.

But why risk losing another of these very scarce, very expensive assets to penetrate airspace with no functional air defense or even air surveillance capability?
 
TomS said:
And the only "source" Cenciotti cites is Homeland Security Today (he leaves out the last word to make it look like its some sort of DHS official source), which itself is only guessing.

But why risk losing another of these very scarce, very expensive assets to penetrate airspace with no functional air defense or even air surveillance capability?
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Based on the article, apparently they believe they have some sort of air surveillance capability. Perhaps the stealthy helo's are aurally more quiet than a standard helo, which could greatly cut down on response times.
 
That's rather circular reasoning - stealth helicopters might have been used, if they were used there must be a reason, thus the reason must be true. Absent any evidence, why not assume that stock MH-60s were used instead?

If there were functional air surveillance radars working in ISIL territory, they'd be known and likely killed to protect the strike aircraft flying there.
 
I wouldn't rule out the possibility, it is somewhat unlikely the Neptune Spear was the only mission the Silent Hawks have ever been used on and the...complex situation on the ground wouldn't make L-O helicopters unwelcome. But yes, that's just speculation.
 
TomS said:
But why risk losing another of these very scarce, very expensive assets to penetrate airspace with no functional air defense or even air surveillance capability?
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For a special operations rotorcraft RF observables are certainly important, but may not be as important as reducing the IR and acoustic signatures. The SHHHH-60 has a *very* tailored acoustic signature that significantly reduces the distance it takes for an observer to hear it coming. That can certainly be an advantage for some special operations missions.


The aircraft are not especially scarce by JSOC standards. JSOC is itself a small force of specialized assets - there were less than 50 each of the MH-60K, MH-60A, and MH-60L produced. So a dozen or so SHHHH-60 aren't too scarce to use.
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TomS said:
But why risk losing another of these very scarce, very expensive assets to penetrate airspace with no functional air defense or even air surveillance capability?
Click to expand...


Isn't the 'stealth chopper' used in Neptune Spear meant to be an interim, proof of concept type that had already been succeeded by something better? I seem to recall some mention of something like that back when it stole the scene from Bin Laden's last act.
 
We honestly don't know. There were some rumors that the Bin Laden aircraft were leftovers from a cancelled development effort, and that there might not be a newer version. But that's just as much speculation as the idea that an improved stealth helo is already in service. No one who can talk about it has enough information for a definitive answer.
 
I have friends on the ground fighting against ISIS as part 'English Brigade' (volunteers from English speaking nations that have joined the Yadizi and Kurds). When the US dropped in some SOF support (JTAC) they came in on the dead of night in a trio of little birds that's couldn't be heard from 200 yards away.


They were so quiet they even caught the dogs off guard.


So acoustically near silent helos, yep. For sure.
 
THe MH-6 Little Birds are reported to be very quiet in general. But that's not the same aircraft as the Stealth Hawk being speculated on here.

PS: Your friends should probably stop talking about operations. It's lousy OPSEC.
 

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