Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

Okay there are no doubt "special helicopters" out there for Direct Action missions. I do not think this was one of those occassions warranting their use.
My take is that this misson was execute from long range, out of the way from places in Iraq that no doubt have folks with cell phones waiting to report on when the American airplanes are taking off. MH-60 DAP provided the close in fires that all US SOF like to have on call for these sort of missions because it is air refuelable where as MH-6 are not long range, nor air refuelable. fire Support rotorcraft have rockets, missiles and guns hanging off of them and this sort of defeats the radar stealth signature aspect. To be sure the MH-60 DAP could have variations of rotorblades for better accoustic signature, but I do not think the community would go there if it in anyway compromised the performance of the aircraft. The CV-22 provides twice the speed and range so that if there had been any casualties in the effort they could have recovered them to a medical facility much faster (witness events in Southern Sudan). Also the V-22 is by far the quietest VTOL platform available when it is in airplane mode. I can vouch for this becuse I live in an area where military rotorcraft are plentiful and I have first hand experiance.
Using the "Ubercopter" on a mission that is really less than National survivial and /or prestige just does not make sense to me. I could be wrong, but it does not pass the KISS test to me.
Thats my speculation.
 
This is in comparison to a known variant of the Blackhawk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UkZoG_eqys
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Isn't the 'stealth chopper' used in Neptune Spear meant to be an interim, proof of concept type that had already been succeeded by something better? I seem to recall some mention of something like that back when it stole the scene from Bin Laden's last act.
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I know this was a claim made by author Chuck Pfarrer in his book SEAL Target Geronimo (2011). The older stealth helicopter claimed to be named Stealth Hawk while the newer helicopter was claimed to be named Ghost Hawk.

Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=iYQtHCObXhsC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=Stealth+Hawk+Ghost+Hawk+SEAL+Target+Geronimo&source=bl&ots=TZ6o6GDGn7&sig=ryooD17diF8KILy6wlk0KIbHnlU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_YFbVZXYNcqrogT46ID4Bg&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Stealth%20Hawk%20Ghost%20Hawk%20SEAL%20Target%20Geronimo&f=false
 
So much else the Pfarrar claimed has been contradicted by other sources that I would not credit it the rest very much at all.
 
TomS said:
So much else the Pfarrar claimed has been contradicted by other sources that I would not credit it the rest very much at all.
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I read every article and book concerning Operation Neptune Spear with skepticism. I believe that it will be decades before we will learn what really happened May 1, 2011 – May 2, 2011 in Abbottabad.
 
Dynoman said:
The sound of the Stealthawk helicopter can be heard in the video captured on a cell phone during the raid. Sounds a little 'muffled,' but nothing dramatically different.
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If you're referring to the sound we can hear from approx 0:53 to 1:05 into the video, i'm really more prone on thinking that's the sound of a poorly maintained 2 stroke engine of a motor bike coming to a halt (you can hear it shutting off too) rather than the sound of a helicopter.

Regards.
 
Agreed. That footage was taken after the raid was over -- there is no helicopter noise to be heard.
 
Also recall that the available reports also say that the raiders came under fire as soon as they landed, so the ISIL people were not rolling out of bed when the rotorcraft landed.
 
Sean Naylor's recent book "Relentless Strike" has some information relevant to this topic.


Naylor's book asserts that 160th SOAR had been experimenting with stealth helicopters for many years, beginning with a stealth Little Bird. This may be a reference to the "Quiet One" rather than a specific 160th program (or not). Around 2004/2005 pilots from 1 Battalion of the 160th started rotating through "Nellis Air Force Base" to train on the Blackhawk. At the time of the Bin Laden raid, according to Naylor, there were only 2 airframes.


According to one of Naylor's DELTA sources the Blackhawk program had been around since at least 2000/2001.


Both the Blackhawks and the (non-stealth) Chinooks participated in rehearsals for the raid, which included flying against representative threats in NV. The 160th and DEVGRU felt the Blackhawks were not required, but they may have been forced on the raid by JSOC and/or CIA as a way to sell it to the executive branch.


Later in the book Naylor describes a 2014 raid into Syria that used the "latest version" of the Blackhawks, and he states that more had been produced since 2011.


---


Much of this is at odds or counter to information in the public domain that is verifiable. That does not mean that Naylor's information is untrue or incorrect, just that it does not agree with other information. For example, the number of aircraft produced and when is not in agreement. The aircraft are also definitely not based at Nellis, though they have certainly been flown in Nevada - this may be a case where "Nellis" is synonymous with "Nellis Range" (though, still, the aircraft do not seem to have been based there).
 
I suspect that the 2014 Syrian Raid is referring to MH-60M which SOAR had at the time.
 
yasotay said:
I suspect that the 2014 Syrian Raid is referring to MH-60M which SOAR had at the time.
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It could be.
Interestingly enough, the SHHHH-60 seems to have at least some of the components of the UH-60M.
 
I'd be rather surprised if the Shhhhh-60 was used on the Abu Kamal raid. It wasn't excactly a deep dark black op like Abbottabad was. There have been a lot of details about that raid since it happened, more in my opinion then the bin Laden raid. Plus, it was right on the Syrian/Iraqi border so i'm not sure why you'd need a stealthy perpetrator like that. I tend to agree with yasotay.
 
RobertWL said:
I'd be rather surprised if the Shhhhh-60 was used on the Abu Kamal raid. It wasn't excactly a deep dark black op like Abbottabad was. There have been a lot of details about that raid since it happened, more in my opinion then the bin Laden raid. Plus, it was right on the Syrian/Iraqi border so i'm not sure why you'd need a stealthy perpetrator like that. I tend to agree with yasotay.
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The raid that Naylor refers to was 200 miles inside Syria, so it may have been a different operation. The operation was a hostage rescue near Raqqa. The hostages had already been moved.
 
Abu Kamal was 2008, right?

Naylor is talking about the failed 2014 raid to rescue James Foley and Steven Sotloff (among others)

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/inside-failed-raid-free-foley-sotloff
 
My apologies, Abu Kamal stands out in my brain for some reason. :-[ But still, reading the details that are on the table, it makes me wonder about the likelihood.
 
Book Reveals New Details About Stealth Black Hawks Used In Bin Laden Raid

In Sean Naylor’s new book Relentless Strike: The Secret History Of Joint Special Operations Command previously unknown details about the stealth Black Hawk helicopters that were used on Bin Laden raid in 2011 are discussed. According to Naylor, the exotic helicopters were test articles from a defunct program that has now been reborn in improved fashion following their use during Operation Neptune Spear.

In the book, Naylor claims the classified project that resulted in only two examples of the exotic Black Hawks being built had two aims. The first was to reshape the aircraft and cover it with radar absorbent material (RAM), to lower its radar signature. The second was to make the aircraft significantly quieter.
Click to expand...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517
 
Flyaway said:
Book Reveals New Details About Stealth Black Hawks Used In Bin Laden Raid

In Sean Naylor’s new book Relentless Strike: The Secret History Of Joint Special Operations Command previously unknown details about the stealth Black Hawk helicopters that were used on Bin Laden raid in 2011 are discussed. According to Naylor, the exotic helicopters were test articles from a defunct program that has now been reborn in improved fashion following their use during Operation Neptune Spear.

In the book, Naylor claims the classified project that resulted in only two examples of the exotic Black Hawks being built had two aims. The first was to reshape the aircraft and cover it with radar absorbent material (RAM), to lower its radar signature. The second was to make the aircraft significantly quieter.
Click to expand...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517
Click to expand...




Post regurgitates material from this thread :|
 
quellish said:
Flyaway said:
Book Reveals New Details About Stealth Black Hawks Used In Bin Laden Raid

In Sean Naylor’s new book Relentless Strike: The Secret History Of Joint Special Operations Command previously unknown details about the stealth Black Hawk helicopters that were used on Bin Laden raid in 2011 are discussed. According to Naylor, the exotic helicopters were test articles from a defunct program that has now been reborn in improved fashion following their use during Operation Neptune Spear.

In the book, Naylor claims the classified project that resulted in only two examples of the exotic Black Hawks being built had two aims. The first was to reshape the aircraft and cover it with radar absorbent material (RAM), to lower its radar signature. The second was to make the aircraft significantly quieter.
Click to expand...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517
Click to expand...




Post regurgitates material from this thread :|
Click to expand...

I searched for that book title on this forum to see what came up & got nothing?
 
Flyaway said:
I searched for that book title on this forum to see what came up & got nothing?
Click to expand...


One page before your post:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12597.msg260144.html#msg260144
 
quellish said:
Flyaway said:
Book Reveals New Details About Stealth Black Hawks Used In Bin Laden Raid

In Sean Naylor’s new book Relentless Strike: The Secret History Of Joint Special Operations Command previously unknown details about the stealth Black Hawk helicopters that were used on Bin Laden raid in 2011 are discussed. According to Naylor, the exotic helicopters were test articles from a defunct program that has now been reborn in improved fashion following their use during Operation Neptune Spear.

In the book, Naylor claims the classified project that resulted in only two examples of the exotic Black Hawks being built had two aims. The first was to reshape the aircraft and cover it with radar absorbent material (RAM), to lower its radar signature. The second was to make the aircraft significantly quieter.
Click to expand...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517
Click to expand...

Post regurgitates material from this thread :|
Click to expand...


Heh.
 
Did Seymour Hersh address the existence of this tail boom at all? Hard to reconcile his version of events with using this type.
 
Hersh doesn't really address the specifics of the helicopter -- he only calls it a Black Hawk. He does talk about the need to avoid "stray" Pakistani fighters, so you could spin it that way. You can actually read his story here:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
 
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1062.195.html

Looking at ZacYates post with the utility variant of the LHX ,
 

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and this as Zac's post in LHX, has me thinking

cheers
 

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An "adult illustrated" (er. ... comic) book published shortly after the raid included drawings of what looked more like a much-modified Sikorsky S-76 commuter helicopter.
 
Again, the musings of Robert Beechy. Nothing there but an artist's imagination and skills at work.
 
Nice book to come out which may enlighten this subject.

Cheers

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517
 
Not new, our Dear quellish posted and discussed before:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12597.msg260144.html#msg260144
 
Morning all.

"Among the classified products produced under his Boeing tenure were the stealth helicopters involved in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, which were based on technology developed for the Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche helicopter the Army had canceled."

http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/February%202019/George-K-Muellner-1943-2019.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1LiPAHlWNTRBWZvCff1lzP6zYPJGPTmEZNA8vL7-hVITrEUT2KfDy8bIk
 
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.
 
TomS said:
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.
Click to expand...

IIRC, the original LHX program also looked at a small utility version, besides just the scout. My guess is they took that work and scaled it up to fit the Blackhawk's mechanical systems, so in a sense, mainly just the airframe was new, in a typical "Skunk works" fashion. Or should I say Phantom Works? ;)
 
Sundog said:
TomS said:
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.
Click to expand...

IIRC, the original LHX program also looked at a small utility version, besides just the scout. My guess is they took that work and scaled it up to fit the Blackhawk's mechanical systems, so in a sense, mainly just the airframe was new, in a typical "Skunk works" fashion. Or should I say Phantom Works? ;)
Click to expand...

Are you saying it was a Blackhawk under the skin just with a different body?
 
Could they really have achieved meaningful acoustic reductions with such an arrangement?
 
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.
 
In my opinion abandoning the light utility variant of the LHX was a big mistake and certainly didn't help save the RAH-66 from the chopping block years later. I'm glad it seems something came from all that work at least.
 
The two versions would have had the same engines and rotor system.

What would have been brought over to the LO Hawk would have been flight controls and blade aerodynamics.
 
LowObservable said:
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.
Click to expand...

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.
 

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