The U.S. Army appears poised once again to either delay or outright terminate its latest effort to replace the 1970s-era Bell OH-58D Kiowa Warrior, with budget cuts threatening its long-gestating plans for the Armed Aerial Scout (AAS) program.
If either happens, the effect will be felt by a rotorcraft industry starving for new military programs after a decade of contracts to keep existing platforms flying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it could mar the relationship between the Pentagon and industry, which continues to spend company funds on research and development following cues from the Defense Department, but with diminishing hope of seeing a financial return anytime soon.
A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
The U.S. Army appears poised once again to either delay or outright terminate its latest effort to replace the 1970s-era Bell OH-58D Kiowa Warrior, with budget cuts threatening its long-gestating plans for the Armed Aerial Scout (AAS) program.
If either happens, the effect will be felt by a rotorcraft industry starving for new military programs after a decade of contracts to keep existing platforms flying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it could mar the relationship between the Pentagon and industry, which continues to spend company funds on research and development following cues from the Defense Department, but with diminishing hope of seeing a financial return anytime soon.
Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Depends on how many troops you want to carry. MH-6 carries 6 troops on external planks. Strangely the S-97 has room for 6 in an interior cabin. B) Six times ~300 lbs = ~1800 lbs. What is the payload of an OH-58D?F-14D said:jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Part of the purpose of AAS is to be small and light. Start adding troop carrying as a main mission and you're into FVL medium
yasotay said:Depends on how many troops you want to carry. MH-6 carries 6 troops on external planks. Strangely the S-97 has room for 6 in an interior cabin. B) Six times ~300 lbs = ~1800 lbs. What is the payload of an OH-58D?F-14D said:jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Part of the purpose of AAS is to be small and light. Start adding troop carrying as a main mission and you're into FVL medium
Thinkin in times o-Hybrid warfare or whatever the new name and even Combined Arms that commanders would not at least the capability they have currently ie 2-4 troops..No more Commache'sF-14D said:yasotay said:Depends on how many troops you want to carry. MH-6 carries 6 troops on external planks. Strangely the S-97 has room for 6 in an interior cabin. B) Six times ~300 lbs = ~1800 lbs. What is the payload of an OH-58D?F-14D said:jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Part of the purpose of AAS is to be small and light. Start adding troop carrying as a main mission and you're into FVL medium
1671 lbs. fuel and stuff. MH-6 is not a scout. S-97 has room for 6, but that's because that's how they decided to size the demonstrator, and because you aren't going to be carrying anyone externally if you want to get the speed the X2 cost premium buys you. If they just want a scout, the S-97 may be thought to be too large (gross weight is twice that of the OH-58). The S-97 is a demonstrator, which may be able to translate to a production vehicle. Maybe Sikorsky, when push comes to shove, may look at offering a smaller X2 vehicle, if possible. The S-97 could build confidence in the technology in a conservative customer. and, even if the S-97 never gets a production order it could serve its purpose by showing that X2 can be practical in the real world and not just work for a few minutes or hours.
I think if you look at all of the contenders they all had extra space. To be sure the Army said none were suitable, but if you are trying to get a rotorcraft for the Army, SOF and maybe the Navy I suspect some extra space will be needed. I have to agree with jsport that future operations are going to require more flexibility in aircraft. I think the days of purpose built rotorcraft may be coming to an end. Besides if the Army outright cancels the AAS program, what aircraft will be doing the mission of the OH-58D once they run out of fatigue life? There is only one other armed rotorcraft in the Army fleet.jsport said:Thinkin in times o-Hybrid warfare or whatever the new name and even Combined Arms that commanders would not at least the capability they have currently ie 2-4 troops..No more Commache'sF-14D said:yasotay said:Depends on how many troops you want to carry. MH-6 carries 6 troops on external planks. Strangely the S-97 has room for 6 in an interior cabin. B) Six times ~300 lbs = ~1800 lbs. What is the payload of an OH-58D?F-14D said:jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Part of the purpose of AAS is to be small and light. Start adding troop carrying as a main mission and you're into FVL medium
1671 lbs. fuel and stuff. MH-6 is not a scout. S-97 has room for 6, but that's because that's how they decided to size the demonstrator, and because you aren't going to be carrying anyone externally if you want to get the speed the X2 cost premium buys you. If they just want a scout, the S-97 may be thought to be too large (gross weight is twice that of the OH-58). The S-97 is a demonstrator, which may be able to translate to a production vehicle. Maybe Sikorsky, when push comes to shove, may look at offering a smaller X2 vehicle, if possible. The S-97 could build confidence in the technology in a conservative customer. and, even if the S-97 never gets a production order it could serve its purpose by showing that X2 can be practical in the real world and not just work for a few minutes or hours.
yasotay said:I think if you look at all of the contenders they all had extra space. To be sure the Army said none were suitable, but if you are trying to get a rotorcraft for the Army, SOF and maybe the Navy I suspect some extra space will be needed. I have to agree with jsport that future operations are going to require more flexibility in aircraft. I think the days of purpose built rotorcraft may be coming to an end. Besides if the Army outright cancels the AAS program, what aircraft will be doing the mission of the OH-58D once they run out of fatigue life? There is only one other armed rotorcraft in the Army fleet.jsport said:Thinkin in times o-Hybrid warfare or whatever the new name and even Combined Arms that commanders would not at least the capability they have currently ie 2-4 troops..No more Commache'sF-14D said:yasotay said:Depends on how many troops you want to carry. MH-6 carries 6 troops on external planks. Strangely the S-97 has room for 6 in an interior cabin. B) Six times ~300 lbs = ~1800 lbs. What is the payload of an OH-58D?F-14D said:jsport said:A survivable, longer range, faster, more lethal AAS w/ troop carrying capability is not in the works but necessary. more risk than it appears anyone wants to manage..especially given the pervasive dysfunction..Triton said:Potential bad news for Sikorsky and the S-97 Raider? Or maybe the Army wants a JMR scout rotorcraft?
"U.S. Army Backing Off On AAS Plans"
By Amy Butler, Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 28, 2013
Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_28_2013_p32-629561.xml
Part of the purpose of AAS is to be small and light. Start adding troop carrying as a main mission and you're into FVL medium
1671 lbs. fuel and stuff. MH-6 is not a scout. S-97 has room for 6, but that's because that's how they decided to size the demonstrator, and because you aren't going to be carrying anyone externally if you want to get the speed the X2 cost premium buys you. If they just want a scout, the S-97 may be thought to be too large (gross weight is twice that of the OH-58). The S-97 is a demonstrator, which may be able to translate to a production vehicle. Maybe Sikorsky, when push comes to shove, may look at offering a smaller X2 vehicle, if possible. The S-97 could build confidence in the technology in a conservative customer. and, even if the S-97 never gets a production order it could serve its purpose by showing that X2 can be practical in the real world and not just work for a few minutes or hours.
yasotay said:Biggest challenge I think for X-2 technology for USN use will be its height. Not sure it will fit in the small hangars on the DDG.
Triton said:yasotay said:Biggest challenge I think for X-2 technology for USN use will be its height. Not sure it will fit in the small hangars on the DDG.
Won't mast height also be an issue with air transport?
Pioneer said:I've always advocated that the US Army for the $7 billion dollar's they waisted on the LHX program in return for nothing. It would have been better of adopting the Agusta A 129 Mangusta International
<snip>
2/ There is no doubt in my mind that the US Army would have taken this cost effective and workable proposal of the A 129/A 129 LBH and tried to reinvent the wheel , added stupendous and unreasonable modifications, added crazy amounts of sensors and weapon systems, re-engine it ............
Regards
Pioneer
yasotay said:A-129 is a pretty good bird. It has one small problem - NIH
I do not believe the AW felt there was enough willingness to go to the wild side (i.e. Eurocopter or AW) within the US government. There is a significant difference between corporate mentality and government.
It would not surprise me if the Army decides to let the scout effort lapse in the current funding situation. Yet they will still face the wrath of the Congressional delegations from the great states of Arizona, Texas, Conneticut and perhaps Pennsylvania. That is just for the primes.
I bet Sikorsky would agree with you! ;Djsport said:... investing in a next generation scout worth 'investing in' needs to rival Apache in many respects including lethality as threats will not remain static. The Russians seem capable of holding troops (however cramped) in an attack helio...again a new design and yes more risk..Could be largely base on an enlarged Commache.
jsport said:... investing in a next generation scout worth 'investing in' needs to rival Apache in many respects including lethality as threats will not remain static. The Russians seem capable of holding troops (however cramped) in an attack helio...again a new design and yes more risk..Could be largely base on an enlarged Commache.
The Mi-28 is now quite famous for it's compartment. This has been known for sometime. The compartment fits three troops however cramped. Three is good number if someone needs to be rescued.F-14D said:jsport said:... investing in a next generation scout worth 'investing in' needs to rival Apache in many respects including lethality as threats will not remain static. The Russians seem capable of holding troops (however cramped) in an attack helio...again a new design and yes more risk..Could be largely base on an enlarged Commache.
That would be JMR/FVL medium. Scout is smaller. Of course, the question arises, is a dedicated scout worth the cost anymore?
Actually the only Russian "attack " helicopter that carries troops is the MI-24/MI-35. The closest Western comparison would be with the stillborn AH-3/S-67. Mi-28 and KA-52 are two seaters, the latter having side-by-side seating as apparently will FVL- Medium attack.
yasotay said:Unless I am missing the point here, the S-97 is capable of carrying six troops inside the aircraft.
If you design the aircraft to be agile with ~1500 lbs., of payload and then only put ~600 lbs., you will have a lot of power to manuever with. Sikorsky has made a lot of claims about maneuverability of the X2, but I don't think we have actually seen them do that with an X2 aircraft. With all of the torque at the rotorhead that might be real, but they have not done it yet.jsport said:yasotay said:Unless I am missing the point here, the S-97 is capable of carrying six troops inside the aircraft.
The x2 attack modified to attack/scout capable of carrying 2 troops might be a more better.
Six troops is great but can that maneuver, evade..etc.
Triton said:Could the pusher prop of the S-97 Raider be used to manuevers?
yasotay said:In forum Sikorsky has claimed a number of maneuver benefits for the X-2. It's ability to turn in one third the space of a conventional helicopter is predicated on having thrust to sustain the g loading through the maneuver. So I think this is a valid claim. Certainly having a means to develop negative thrust along the centerline of the aircraft (prop into beta) will have the same effect as doing so with a prop on landing as we commonly see with turbo-prop aircraft. Likewise, acceleration, over conventional helicopter should be significantly improved.