Army Scout after LHX...RAH...ARH

TomS said:
F-14D said:
Actually, NOTAR is owned by MD helicopters.

MD Helicopters says Boeing retained the rights to NOTAR, but seems to imply that only MD Helicopters can use it. It looks to be a complicated situation.

http://www.mdhelicopters.com/v2/company.php

Looking at that page and elsewhere, it appears that when Boeing sold off the civil line, which it inherited when it ate MDD Helicopters, to the Dutch Company (after the US Government blocked Bell from acquiring the line), it retained the rights to NOTAR technology. When Lyn Tilton bought the company from the Dutch, Boeing either transferred the rights to the new company (retaining its own rights to use it), or licensed MD to use it in the current line and developing new products. Elsewhere on their site they note "NOTAR technology -only MD helicopters has it". Boeing and MD helicopters are in different markets at presently don't compete.

I suspect it's not that Boeing can't use it as much as that Boeing's present business model does not include helicopters that would use this technology, but wants to hang on to it "just in case".
 
http://blogs.defensenews.com/farnborough/2012/07/10/aw139-floated-as-kiowa-helicopter-replacement/
 
Re: Army Scout after LHX...RAH...ARH...AAS

And then there is the need to revise the Subject line with Armed Aerial Scout (AAS). Next in a couple years will be the Armed Scout System.
 
Re: Army Scout after LHX...RAH...ARH...AAS

yasotay said:
Next in a couple years will be the Armed Scout System.

I can see what you're doing here. ;D
 
What about Agusta Westland HH-139A? Ten of them are being delivered to the Italian Air Force. Funny is that it is "search and resecue" helicopter with "defensive armament".
 

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Matej said:
What about Agusta Westland HH-139A? Ten of them are being delivered to the Italian Air Force. Funny is that it is "search and resecue" helicopter with "defensive armament".

Does Agusta Westland have a manufacturing presence in the United States? Would a United States company manufacture the design under license? The EADS UH-72 Lakota is manufactured in the United States at the American Eurocopter plant in Columbus, Mississippi. I presume that United States-based assembly is required for a United State Army helicopter.
 
Matej said:
If it is favourite proposal, then tere is not any problem to team with Bell.

Was the transfer of the Bell Agusta BA-609 civil tilt rotor project to AgustaWestland amiable? Would the two companies enter into joint ventures in the future? Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor of the VH-71 Kestrel, which was derived from the AugustaWestland AW-101.

Isn't the United States Army's evaluation of the AgustaWestland HH-139A dependent on whether the company responds to a United States Army RFI?
 
Triton said:
Was the transfer of the Bell Agusta BA-609 civil tilt rotor project to AgustaWestland amiable?

It was the only way, how to save the project and make it effective. Bell has its own problems and do not have resources to continue.

Triton said:
Would the two companies enter into joint ventures in the future?

In this case definitely yes. When the new Agusta project entered direct development phase, Agusta partnered with Bell and created BAAC (Bell/Agusta Aerospace Company) to develop AB-139. Bell cancelled also this cooperation and also because its own internal problems. Agusta Westland is still paying some minor fees for used technologies to Bell. So to produce this type in USA is not any problem.

Triton said:
Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor of the VH-71 Kestrel, which was derived from the AugustaWestland AW-101.

But this was the project that Bell has nothing to do with. It was developed in Westland Agusta cooperation since early 80s, so they were trying to find the strongest/best possible US partner. It was Lockheed Martin.

Triton said:
Isn't the United States Army's evaluation of the AgustaWestland HH-139A dependent on whether the company responds to a United States Army RFI?

Of course. It was already offered to fulfill many tasks, primarily to (now doubtfull) program CVLSP (Common Vertical Lift Support Program) to replace UH-1. Proper designation in this case is AW-139M (Military), because HH-139A is designation used in Aeronautica Militare Italiana.
 
Now that American Eurocopter has an assembly line in Columbus, MS, is it possible that there might be a United States Army scout based on Eurocopter/EADS platform? A scout based on the UH-72 Lakota helicopter?
 
For sure. As was mentioned before, EADS is actively working on the AS654 (military EC-145) derivative. Similar version for Portugal can be a good starting point and there is also possibility of the significant decrease of operational costs when combined with UH-72A fleet. We will see.
 
Matej said:
For sure. As was mentioned before, EADS is actively working on the AS654 (military EC-145) derivative. Similar version for Portugal can be a good starting point and there is also possibility of the significant decrease of operational costs when combined with UH-72A fleet. We will see.

Do you mean this concept, Matej? I believe Eurocopter is calling it the AAS-72X+. A notional Lakota Warrior?

EADS North America unveils latest evolution of its Armed Aerial Scout combat helicopter for Army's Armed Scout requirement


HERNDON, Va. and NASHVILLE, Tenn., April 2, 2012

Armed Aerial Scout 72X+ delivers even greater capability over company's previously developed Armed Scout Technical Demonstrator Aircraft.
EADS North America today unveiled its Armed Aerial Scout 72X+ (AAS-72X+) at the annual Army Aviation Association of America convention in Nashville during a press conference at the company’s exhibit.

The AAS-72X+, an armed derivative of the Army’s UH-72A Lakota Light Utility Helicopter will be manufactured by the company’s American Eurocopter business unit in Columbus, Miss.
The AAS-72X+ helicopter builds on the three Armed Aerial Scout Technical Demonstrator Aircraft (TDA) already developed, tested and flown, using the company’s own research and development investment.

“This latest evolution of the Armed Scout gives us the option of offering an even more capable system, to ensure our combat troops have the very best aircraft available to meet their demanding missions,” said Sean O’Keefe, EADS North America Chairman and CEO. “We look forward to demonstrating the advanced performance of the AAS-72X+ during the Army’s Voluntary Flight Demonstration this summer.”

The AAS-72X or AAS-72X+ could be built and delivered at a cost competitive with the upgrades planned for the Vietnam-era OH-58 Kiowa Warrior and fielded to Army units as early as 2016.
This variant is based on the commercial EC-145T2 aircraft which incorporates the more powerful Turbomeca Arriel 2E engines with dual channel FADEC, a Fenestron tail rotor for improved anti-torque, an upgraded transmission, the Helionix glass cockpit and avionics suite, and a 4-axis autopilot system.

These elements of the AAS-72X+ will offer the Army greater power, range, endurance and payload capacity when operating in 6,000 foot altitude and 95 degree environments, commonly known as “6K/95 high/hot” conditions — the most demanding environment for rotary-wing operations.
The AAS-72X+’s performance will exceed the Army’s previously published 6K/95 endurance requirement of 2 hours and 12 minutes plus a 20 minute fuel reserve, while carrying a 2,800 pound useful payload for mission equipment and crew.

EADS North America has delivered more than 210 UH-72A Lakotas to the Army and five the U.S. Navy, all on schedule and on budget
Sources:
http://www.ejercitos.org/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=49327
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/press/EADS-North-America-unveils-latest-evolution-of-its-Armed-Aerial-Scout-combat-helicopter-for-Army-s-Armed-Scout-requirement_894.html?iframe=true&width=700
 

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As of June 2012, the contenders include:

  • AgustaWestland AW139M
  • Boeing/MD Helicopter AH-6i
  • EADS AAS-72X
  • Bell OH-58F
  • Sikorsky S-97 Raider
  • MD Helicopter MD 540F
Source:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/06/army-tour-armed-aerial-scout-suitors-062712d/

So please disregard what I said about AgustaWestland.
 
Here is a link to a web page with a couple of recent photos of the AH-6i. Scroll down the page a little to see the Little Bird photos.


http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/indian-air-force/20955-two-boeing-birds.html


It looks like the AH-6i has been fitted with tall skids and a new tail boom. It is also possible that it has been fitted with a new tail rotor. There seems to be a lot of wiring on the tail section.


500 Fan.
 
http://youtu.be/yno46jtE_vY

Eurocopter AAS-72X+

Source:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2012-04-06/contractors-await-us-armys-armed-scout-evaluation
 

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DonaldM said:
As of June 2012, the contenders include:

  • AgustaWestland AW139M
  • Boeing/MD Helicopter AH-6i
  • EADS AAS-72X
  • Bell OH-58F
  • Sikorsky S-97 Raider
  • MD Helicopter MD 540F

Was there ever an OH-58E?

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if continuing with the RAH-66 would have been cheaper option when all is said and done. Hopefully not.
 
In October 2012, EADS North America demonstrated the capabilities of its AAS-72X+ in Alamosa, Colorado, to the U.S. Army. This proposed replacement for the OH-58 Kiowa is highly agile and maneuverable, and can fly in extremely high/hot conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpx0livEosA&feature=share&list=UU-gc9j9xDuE7IKz7Zo4l5XA
 
Boeing AH-6i

Source:
http://dunkbear.egloos.com/v/2927636
 

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On the AH-6i, is that a searchlight in the nose bulge above the EO ball?

Never mind, I found another illustration that confirms it is a light. Looks like it can actually extend so that it looks straight ahead or point down to illuminate below the aircraft.
 
Nils_D said:
Does nobody produce new designs for helicopters anymore?

Yes they do. See the Swiss Marenco SKYe SH09, the Sikorsky S-97 Raider, or the Bell Model 525 Relentless. These are all-new designs!
 
China has a few.... South Korea, India, Iran.


I know I am forgetting some and some might argue about orignality with some, but there are a few new rotorcraft out there.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Yes they do. See the Swiss Marenco SKYe SH09, the Sikorsky S-97 Raider, or the Bell Model 525 Relentless. These are all-new designs!
See, with the exception of the S-97, those all look no different nor particularily more advanced than what was state of the art in the 1970s. The 21st century certainly has been disappointing.
 
Nils_D said:
Stargazer2006 said:
Yes they do. See the Swiss Marenco SKYe SH09, the Sikorsky S-97 Raider, or the Bell Model 525 Relentless. These are all-new designs!
See, with the exception of the S-97, those all look no different nor particularily more advanced than what was state of the art in the 1970s. The 21st century certainly has been disappointing.
Physics has a lot to do with that. If you want to get technical the S-97 is a compound helicopter (using other than the main rotor for propulsion and lift). I think that many would agree with you that the state of the art has not really progressed since the 1970's at least in leap ahead rotorcraft aerodynamics. That said there is considerable work going on in Europe and the US to investigate rotor design and electronics, but at the end of the day it will still be a helicopter. Look at the concept pictures for the Eurocopter X4, it still has a big whirly thing on top and a small whirly thing at the rear of the aircraft.
Compound and tilt-rotor technologies appear to be most promising toward moving VTOL aircraft forward, as more want better range, endurance (efficiency), and reduced maintennance cost (reliability & speed {less blade time}). Fan in wing, like the Ryan XV-5 might offer some advantage as well down the road as well.
 
Would the Sikorsky S-97 Raider/X2 Technology compound aircraft be considered too risky by the United States Army for the Armed Aerial Scout (AAS) program?
 
DonaldM said:
Would the Sikorsky S-97 Raider/X2 Technology compound aircraft be considered too risky by the United States Army for the Armed Aerial Scout (AAS) program?

I think it's more a matter of deadlines. The AAS must be ready much earlier than the S-97 program is meant to be.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
DonaldM said:
Would the Sikorsky S-97 Raider/X2 Technology compound aircraft be considered too risky by the United States Army for the Armed Aerial Scout (AAS) program?

I think it's more a matter of deadlines. The AAS must be ready much earlier than the S-97 program is meant to be.

Until Congress has concurred with the funding of an aircraft to replace the venerable Kiowa Warrior, I would be hesitant to take anything off the table.

Just how many technology companies are involved with S-97? How many States do those tech firms reside in? You don't think Sikorsky is putting those video's of their "tech partners" on the web for us trivia troopers do you?
 
The Block II Bell OH-58 Kiowa Warrior is taking part in a demonstration for the AAS competition this week. EADS, Agusta and now Bell have all taken part in demos for the army. As far as I know, Boeing and MDHI have yet to show their entries to the US Army for the AAS competition.


500 Fan.
 
500 Fan said:
The Block II Bell OH-58 Kiowa Warrior is taking part in a demonstration for the AAS competition this week. EADS, Agusta and now Bell have all taken part in demos for the army. As far as I know, Boeing and MDHI have yet to show their entries to the US Army for the AAS competition.


500 Fan.

Any news about the AgustaWestland AW139M or derivative? What about the AVX upgrade proposal?

yasotay said:
Just how many technology companies are involved with S-97? How many States do those tech firms reside in? You don't think Sikorsky is putting those video's of their "tech partners" on the web for us trivia troopers do you?
 

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"Armed Aerial Scout Helicopter: To Be Or Not To Be?"

by Richard Whittle

Published: December 5, 2012

Source:
http://defense.aol.com/2012/12/05/armed-aerial-scout-helicopter-to-be-or-not-to-be/

WASHINGTON: Reports that the Army has finally figured out whether the Hamlet of aircraft programs, Armed Aerial Scout, should be or not be are greatly exaggerated. Army aviation acquisition officials have looked at what birds in hand industry can offer to replace the service's aging OH-58D Kiowa Warrior scout helicopters and have decided they'd prefer to go after a bird in the bush. They're still trying to decide, though, whether they can actually afford one.

The Army has been struggling for more than 20 years to come up with an aircraft to replace the Bell Helicopter Textron Inc. OH-58, which first went into service in 1969 and has been upgraded several times. Rumors were reported last week that a decision had been made to buy a new Armed Aerial Scout after a Pentagon meeting. At that session, Army aviation officials briefed the service's assistant secretary for acquisition, technology and logistics, Heidi Shyu, on the results of flight demonstrations of helicopters manufacturers could offer for the armed scout role. They also presented options and a recommendation, but no decisions were reached.

On Dec. 18, aviation officials are to present their findings and the recommendation they decide they can afford to the vice chief of staff of the Army, Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III. Sometime in January, they are to take an official Army request to Pentagon acquisition chief Frank Kendall.

"A decision will be made next year," said Army spokesman Dov Schwartz, declining further comment.

In the flight demonstrations, conducted last summer and fall, five manufacturers flew prescribed maneuvers with helicopters they might offer if the Army were to replace the OH-58D. Some participants were certain their aircraft impressed Army observers sufficiently to inspire a new start, but AOL Defense can report that what Army officials saw left them unenthusiastic about buying existing helicopters for the armed scout mission. Even if outfitted with additional combat gear, the aircraft left Army officials unconvinced they should invest the $10 million to $15 million apiece they have estimated it might cost to buy 425 new Armed Aerial Scouts.

As a result, aviation officers are studying whether the service should develop a more advanced version of some existing aircraft and thus get a scout able to fly faster and farther and hover with efficiency at higher altitudes, among other attributes. The answer depends partly on how much that would cost, how it might affect the helicopter industrial base, and how it might mesh with the Pentagon's joint Future Vertical Lift (FVL) initiative.

FVL is a science and technology program to develop four classes of advanced aircraft – light, medium, heavy and ultra -- that can take off and land vertically. Under existing plans, the first of the four to be developed would be a medium-lift aircraft known as the Joint Multirole, a vehicle that could be adapted for various missions.

"What they want to do is kind of hold what they've got and go for the next generation capability," an industry source who follows the Armed Aerial Scout issue closely said of Army aviation leaders.

Within the past eight years, two previous Army programs to develop a Kiowa Warrior replacement were cancelled for cost and other issues. The low-observable, futuristic RAH-66 Comanche was killed in 2004 after about 22 years and $7 billion of development. The ARH-70A Arapaho, an attempt to militarize Bell's successful 407 Ranger, was scrapped in 2008 after its costs soared. After the ARH-70A was cancelled, the Army studied its alternatives and decided the only way to meet its future armed scout helicopter needs would be to develop a new manned aircraft because an unmanned vehicle couldn't fly close air support missions. Army aviation leaders, however, decided they couldn't afford such a new start.

Instead, they decided on a plan that Maj. Gen. Timothy Crosby, program executive officer for aviation, described publicly as an "appetite suppressant." They would upgrade their OH-58Ds to an OH-58F model so those wouldn't become obsolete, conduct a service life extension program (SLEP) on the Kiowa Warriors later to keep them flying, and wait for the FVL to provide technology for a new Armed Aerial Scout. Now, however, following the flight demonstrations, Army officials are studying whether a wiser course would be to pursue a more advanced aircraft sooner.

"They'll look for a dramatic improvement in capability," the industry source predicted.

Theoretically, that might mean a compound helicopter based on Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.'s X2 Technology Demonstrator or on Eurocopter's equally futuristic X3 hybrid. Both combine rotors with propellers to fly about twice as fast as an OH-58D can, and both have proven their configuration works, at least on a demonstrator. A helicopter-airplane hybrid tiltrotor able to take off and land vertically and fly like a fixed-wing plane by swiveling rotors up or forward, as the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey does, might be an equally speedy option.

What the Army might need to spend to get a more advanced aircraft is unclear, though the answer would certainly be in the billions. Asking for commitments like that when the sword of sequestration is hanging over the Pentagon budget's neck may sound awfully optimistic, but spending on aircraft development programs tends to start relatively low and rise to significant levels only years later.

In the meantime, the service is committed to its OH-58D upgrade, under which Bell is providing 15 new cabins while the Army replaces the Kiowa Warrior's distinctive mast-mounted sight with a nose-mounted Raytheon Common Sensor Payload sensor ball, also used by the Army's MQ-1C Gray Eagle unmanned aerial vehicle, a Predator derivative. Putting the sensor ball on the nose requires replacing the OH-58D's landing skids with a set that keeps the aircraft higher off the ground when at rest. With color cockpit displays to replace existing monochrome ones and a number of other technical changes, the OH-58Ds become OH-58Fs.

If senior Army or Pentagon leaders were to decide to replace the OH-58 with another conventional helicopter after all, Bell has proposed a Block II version of the OH-58F, followed by a Block III. The block upgrades would give the Kiowa Warrior a new engine, rotor blades, transmission, tail rotor and, in the end, a new cabin and airframe. Bell flew a Block II during its demonstration for the Army.

The U.S. arm of European defense giant EADS demonstrated both an "Armed Aerial Scout 72X" derived from the UH-72A Lakota light utility helicopter the company has built for the Army in Columbus, Miss., as well as an "Armed Aerial Scout 72X+" based on EADS subsidiary Eurocopter's civilian EC-145.

Boeing Co. flew an enhanced version of its AH-6, colloquially but not officially known as the "Little Bird." Anglo-Italian company AgustaWestland flew its AW139, while MD Helicopters Inc. of Mesa, Ariz., offered its 540F, a new helicopter that in profile resembles the Little Bird.

Sikorsky didn't fly anything but briefed Army officials on its S-97 Raider, a compound helicopter concept based on its X2 demonstrator. The X2, which made 23 flights between 2008-2011, used coaxial rotors and a pusher propeller to reach speeds as high as 290 miles per hour in level flight. The S-97 isn't flying yet but Sikorsky plans to have two prototypes in the air in 2014.

If the Army does go after after an advanced rather than an existing helicopter to replace the OH-58, it would come as little surprise. Crosby told the Association of the United States Army's 2012 Aviation Symposium last January that while the Army would look at existing helicopters, it was unlikely to buy one under current budget conditions. "Who thinks that's affordable?" he asked.

Another key official, meanwhile, Lt. Gen. William Phillips, principal military deputy to the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, told an American Helicopter Society dinner just a few weeks ago that it was "time for the Army to look forward and do something dramatic in aviation."
 
Artist's impressions of AgustaWestland AW169 AAS unveiled at the Army Aviation Association of America Annual Professional Forum and Exposition in Fort Worth, Texas (April 10th-13th, 2013).

Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3Ae6d262e1-df61-4fa9-826e-47ecb6ab6520
 

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Mock-up of AgustaWestland AW169 AAS on display at the Army Aviation Association of America Annual Professional Forum and Exposition in Fort Worth, Texas (April 10th-13th, 2013).

Source:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-checklist/AgustaWestland-Unwraps-AW169-AAS-for-Armed-Aerial-Scout-Competition_78979.html#.UW2b7cotcug
 

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Great looking aircraft but it would be the biggest Scout helicopter I have ever seen. Of course it would have decent multi-role capability. I was surprised that they had not considered a 109 Power for the mission. Will be hard to stuff more than a couple of these into a C-130 I think.
 
Artist's impressions of the AgustaWestland AW169 AAS. Royal Air Force markings?

Source:
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.com/2013/04/aw169-armed-aerial-scout-candidate.html
 

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Photos of AgustaWestland AW169 AAS mockup from the AAAA 2013 convention from the American Helicopter Society International page on Facebook.

Source:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151516962220528.1073741829.80119815527&type=3
 

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