Argentinian Unbuilt Projects

[Erdosain]

Today June 16, 2020 marks the 70th anniversary of the first flight of the prototype of the supersonic interceptor fighter I.Ae 33 Pulqui II E-1 The same was carried out on the Runway of the Military School of Parachuting, on June 16, 1950 at controls of Captain Edmundo Weiss The plane in question was equipped with a Rolls Royce "Nene" engine with a takeoff thrust of 2300 kg with a maximum speed of 1,040 K / Hs This same aircraft was presented on February 8, 1951 in the Aeropark before the then President General Juan Domingo Perón and the Prince Consort of the Netherlands being its pilot Kurt Tank Source FMA Historical Book

Sorry for necroing an old message, but i wonder what source the name E-1 comes from? E-1 kind of makes sense as it is the first Pulqui II to fly, but it is also the second prototype. Was the third prototype called E-2 etc? Which book is the "FMA Historical Book"?

I understand that the correct designation was I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-1 (V1) and so on.
The "E" was for Experimental, the V for Versuchsmuster, which I suppose was the German word for Experimental.

The historical book of the FMA is composed of two volumes, volume I with 288 pages and volume II with 282 pages, which compile all the historical dates and milestones of the FMA from its foundation until 1985. Actually it is titled " Historical Book of the Areá Material Córdoba "

 

[Erdosain]

Comencé a investigar y encontré esto: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
Si este texto es correcto, la mayoría de los libros y fuentes sobre el Pulqui II son incorrectos, y solo se han realizado 4 prototipos completos.

1. E-1 : primer prototipo, armado con cuatro cañones MG-151 de 20 mm. Primer vuelo: 16 de junio de 1950. Se estrelló: mayo de 1951.
2. E-2 : segundo prototipo, inicialmente desarmado y planeado para pruebas estáticas, pero luego se modificó para convertirse en digno de vuelo cuando el E-3 se estrelló en 1952. La modificación se realizó en 1953 e incluyó: primer montaje del armamento planeado de cuatro 20 mm Cañones HS 804, una valla de ala por ala, cuatro orugas en la cola, frenos de aire, mayor capacidad de combustible de 2.000 a 3.000 litros (según E-3), tren de aterrizaje reforzado (según E-3), ajustable en vuelo timón (según E-3). Esta modificación es lo que creo que la mayoría de la gente llama "prototipo 04" y el "prototipo 02m" (modificado), etc. Se estrelló en 1956.
3. E-3 : tercer prototipo, desarmado. Modificaciones de E-1: mayor capacidad de combustible (2.000 a 3.000 litros), tren de aterrizaje reforzado, timón ajustable en vuelo. Primer vuelo: principios de 1952. Se estrelló en octubre de 1952.
4. E-4 : cuarto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
5. E-5 - quinto prototipo, completado en 1959 usando partes de E-4 y E-6 como el Pulqui II final. A veces se le llama "Pulqui IIe" pero era igual al E-2 final pero sin armamento. Primer vuelo: mayo de 1960. Dado al "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" a fines de 1960.
6. E-6 : sexto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.

Esa lista esta mal

Había dos planeadores del Pulqui II y dos fuselajes para pruebas estáticas.
El segundo prototipo fue el I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-2: Primer vuelo el 14 de septiembre de 1951
El primer vuelo del tercer prototipo fue el 18 de julio de 1952. El tercer prototipo probó en tierra y en el aire los cañones de 20 mm, no lo recuerdo bien pero creo que fue el primero en llevar cañones.

Otro autor, Atilio Marino, dijo que solo había cuatro prototipos, pero, según él, el error es que el primer prototipo, después de ser modificado extensamente, se confunde con un segundo prototipo.

El problema es que las FMA en ese momento no registraban los prototipos. Hay muchos datos que se perdieron o no se registraron. Por ejemplo, a la fecha no se sabe con certeza cuántos I.Ae.35 Huanquero se construyeron y los números de serie correspondientes a cada uno.

 

[riggerrob]

Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.

This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.

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A beautiful piece of wooden sculpture!

 

[iverson]

This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.

While I will always bow to superior knowledge, I reject the uncharitable term "fan art". I used the information that I had available at the time when I created the drawing, which included the wooden model you show and the first drawing attached below. Both the model and the plan still appear to represent a side-by-side seating arrangement to my untutored eye. The second attached image is a somewhat less official-looking drawing of the tandem configuration that I found a decade or so later. It looks rather different.

 

[blockhaj]

Comencé a investigar y encontré esto: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
Si este texto es correcto, la mayoría de los libros y fuentes sobre el Pulqui II son incorrectos, y solo se han realizado 4 prototipos completos.

1. E-1 : primer prototipo, armado con cuatro cañones MG-151 de 20 mm. Primer vuelo: 16 de junio de 1950. Se estrelló: mayo de 1951.
2. E-2 : segundo prototipo, inicialmente desarmado y planeado para pruebas estáticas, pero luego se modificó para convertirse en digno de vuelo cuando el E-3 se estrelló en 1952. La modificación se realizó en 1953 e incluyó: primer montaje del armamento planeado de cuatro 20 mm Cañones HS 804, una valla de ala por ala, cuatro orugas en la cola, frenos de aire, mayor capacidad de combustible de 2.000 a 3.000 litros (según E-3), tren de aterrizaje reforzado (según E-3), ajustable en vuelo timón (según E-3). Esta modificación es lo que creo que la mayoría de la gente llama "prototipo 04" y el "prototipo 02m" (modificado), etc. Se estrelló en 1956.
3. E-3 : tercer prototipo, desarmado. Modificaciones de E-1: mayor capacidad de combustible (2.000 a 3.000 litros), tren de aterrizaje reforzado, timón ajustable en vuelo. Primer vuelo: principios de 1952. Se estrelló en octubre de 1952.
4. E-4 : cuarto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
5. E-5 - quinto prototipo, completado en 1959 usando partes de E-4 y E-6 como el Pulqui II final. A veces se le llama "Pulqui IIe" pero era igual al E-2 final pero sin armamento. Primer vuelo: mayo de 1960. Dado al "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" a fines de 1960.
6. E-6 : sexto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.

Esa lista esta mal

Había dos planeadores del Pulqui II y dos fuselajes para pruebas estáticas.
El segundo prototipo fue el I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-2: Primer vuelo el 14 de septiembre de 1951
El primer vuelo del tercer prototipo fue el 18 de julio de 1952. El tercer prototipo probó en tierra y en el aire los cañones de 20 mm, no lo recuerdo bien pero creo que fue el primero en llevar cañones.

Otro autor, Atilio Marino, dijo que solo había cuatro prototipos, pero, según él, el error es que el primer prototipo, después de ser modificado extensamente, se confunde con un segundo prototipo.

El problema es que las FMA en ese momento no registraban los prototipos. Hay muchos datos que se perdieron o no se registraron. Por ejemplo, a la fecha no se sabe con certeza cuántos I.Ae.35 Huanquero se construyeron y los números de serie correspondientes a cada uno.

Did any of the creators ever write a book on the subject? Also, we should move to this thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pulqui-ii.3386/#post-496302

 

[Erdosain]

This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.

While I will always bow to superior knowledge, I reject the uncharitable term "fan art". I used the information that I had available at the time when I created the drawing, which included the wooden model you show and the first drawing attached below. Both the model and the plan still appear to represent a side-by-side seating arrangement to my untutored eye. The second attached image is a somewhat less official-looking drawing of the tandem configuration that I found a decade or so later. It looks rather different.

 

[Hood]

I would say it would be tandem seating, the wingspan is only 7 metres so although the fuselage looks 'fat' it is actually probably about 1.5 metres in diameter (based off a rough scaling estimate).

 

[Erdosain]

I would say it would be tandem seating, the wingspan is only 7 metres so although the fuselage looks 'fat' it is actually probably about 1.5 metres in diameter (based off a rough scaling estimate).

The digital file of the drawing is not of good quality.

In red the stations of the fuselage and in black the approximate radius in each station according to the table Sections of the Fuselage (SECC. del FUSEL.), which does not read well due to its low quality.

 

[Erdosain]

Project I.A.59 (Dr Reimar Hörten) - Assault aircraft and light transport

Regional transport jet aircraft for short distances, in the 17 to 25 tn category, designed to operate aerodromes with runways of 1000 m in length.

There was going to be a civil and a military version. The military one was equipped with a rear loading ramp.

A significant detail is the original arrangement of the power plants on the wings, obtaining a distance from the ground that reduces the possibility of suction of foreign bodies, in addition to achieving a greater margin of centering of the aircraft with different load conditions by improving the location. center of gravity.

This configuration was chosen over that of a high-wing aircraft after a careful comparison between the two configurations.

Text source: "Military Aircraft Factory - Chronicles and Testimonies" by Ángel César Arreguez

@RengelGonzalo




Civil Variant



Military Variant


high-wing configuration

https://twitter.com/x/status/1458781834398085126

View: https://twitter.com/RengelGonzalo/status/1458781834398085126

 

[Erdosain]

FMA IA-37 by Juan Manuel Mascarello

 

[riggerrob]

FMA IA-37 by Juan Manuel Mascarello

View attachment 668356

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What is the function of those extra flaps over the inboard leading edge?
Are they engine inlets for ground operations (ala. MiG-29)?

 

[Mugs914]

FMA IA-37 by Juan Manuel Mascarello

View attachment 668356

View attachment 668357

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What is the function of those extra flaps over the inboard leading edge?
Are they engine inlets for ground operations?

Speed brakes like on the Vulcan?

 

[Erdosain]

 

[riggerrob]

This narrator needs to learn the basics of both English and Spanish pronunciation.
He also needs to waste less time speculating about passengers aft of the wing.

 

[Maveric]

Not really projects, but apparently one-of-a-kind: Professor Adolfo Yakstas' planes. I am very grateful for further information about the designer and his aircraft.

 

[riggerrob]

Not really projects, but apparently one-of-a-kind: Professor Adolfo Yakstas' planes. I am very grateful for further information about the designer and his aircraft.

Interesting how the fuselages are fairly smooth, but he uses a lot of struts for landing gear.
What sort of engines did Prof. Yakstas use

 

[Maveric]

With the Y.10 I only know that it has a 130hp engine. With the YBS.721 he uses a Praga B.2 with 40hp.

 

[elmayerle]

Supposedly this would be a VLJ variant of the IA-63 Pampa, made at the request of a foreign millionaire by LMAASA in collaboration with the Aeronautical University Institute (IUA) of the Argentine Air Force (FAA).

There is not much information about it or official data to prove its veracity

View attachment 666136

I would love to see a comparison between this and proposed passenger versions of the Miles Student.

 

[Roland55]

i already posted this image some pages ago...but i have to say, the idea of a Naval Pucara passed quite some times through my mind. Converting a COIN aircraft into...an anti-shipping platform?

Spoiler

My main doubt about such a thing are various, for instance the size...the Pucara is 14.5 meters long (the Super Etendard is 14.3 and that was a bit tight on the 25 de Mayo elevators). Given its range and carrying capacity...i wouldn't mind seeing this aircraft as more of a....small AEW off smaller carrier than ASW.

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

Pulqui 1

 

[robunos]

i already posted this image some pages ago...but i have to say, the idea of a Naval Pucara passed quite some times through my mind. Converting a COIN aircraft into...an anti-shipping platform?

Spoiler

My main doubt about such a thing are various, for instance the size...the Pucara is 14.5 meters long (the Super Etendard is 14.3 and that was a bit tight on the 25 de Mayo elevators). Given its range and carrying capacity...i wouldn't mind seeing this aircraft as more of a....small AEW off smaller carrier than ASW.

I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to develop a folding tail . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Roland55]

i already posted this image some pages ago...but i have to say, the idea of a Naval Pucara passed quite some times through my mind. Converting a COIN aircraft into...an anti-shipping platform?

Spoiler

My main doubt about such a thing are various, for instance the size...the Pucara is 14.5 meters long (the Super Etendard is 14.3 and that was a bit tight on the 25 de Mayo elevators). Given its range and carrying capacity...i wouldn't mind seeing this aircraft as more of a....small AEW off smaller carrier than ASW.

I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to develop a folding tail . . .

cheers,
Robin.

I think without a folding back it could barely fit on the elevators (lengthwise), dimensions could be very close to the S-2 trackers, and those never had issues fitting inside 25.

Still i dont get why "navalize" a COIN aircraft, i understand navalizing the Pampa, but the Pucara...its weird..

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Still i dont get why "navalize" a COIN aircraft, i understand nasalizing the Pampa, but the Pucara...its weird..

Maybe as an ASW platform? What about CAS for marines? (Though I guess the A-4 did the latter perfectly fine)

 

[Roland55]

Still i dont get why "navalize" a COIN aircraft, i understand nasalizing the Pampa, but the Pucara...its weird..

Maybe as an ASW platform? What about CAS for marines? (Though I guess the A-4 did the latter perfectly fine)

i guess, but thats the purpose of the trackers (plane that the pucara couldn't really replace), so its a bit of a weird one. Maybe in the case where the S-2Es weren't available...but again, not a really convenient conversion.

 

[Roland55]

A ton of stuff to see

 

[Erdosain]

 

[Erdosain]

i already posted this image some pages ago...but i have to say, the idea of a Naval Pucara passed quite some times through my mind. Converting a COIN aircraft into...an anti-shipping platform?

Spoiler

My main doubt about such a thing are various, for instance the size...the Pucara is 14.5 meters long (the Super Etendard is 14.3 and that was a bit tight on the 25 de Mayo elevators). Given its range and carrying capacity...i wouldn't mind seeing this aircraft as more of a....small AEW off smaller carrier than ASW.

It's just speculation from that magazine, with no sources to back it up.

There was no naval variant of the Pucara, not even as a preliminary project.

 

[scorp]

Not sure if this is correct topic to post in, but around 1978, recall a remainder-type book of 'modern' military aircraft colour profiles by Pilot Press including a speculative one of the Pampa. Of course, that was years before the aircraft flew, and don't think it even pictured the mock-up as displayed publicly in 1981. Would anyone possibly have said artwork? Thanks in advance.

 

[Erdosain]

Not sure if this is correct topic to post in, but around 1978, recall a remainder-type book of 'modern' military aircraft colour profiles by Pilot Press including a speculative one of the Pampa. Of course, that was years before the aircraft flew, and don't think it even pictured the mock-up as displayed publicly in 1981. Would anyone possibly have said artwork? Thanks in advance.

This atwork? It was published in Aeroespacio Magazine, Nº 415, May-June 1982

 

[Erdosain]

IA-63 Pampa, Preliminary Design




Preliminary design with two split canopies in the Alpha Jet style

 

[scorp]

Appreciate any early artwork of Pampa, but one I was thinking of had an all-tan scheme, and came from UK's Pilot Press. Split canopy in yours is noteworthy. Thanks.

 

[nuuumannn]

A bit of an interesting look at the original prototype of the IA.58, or A-X2/AX-02 as it was called, the design was different for the nose and its engines weren't the french we all know, they were American Garrett engines. its also interesting to note that the whole cockpit had a different design (guns were more exposed and protruded from the fuselage and the nose wasn't covered by a single piece cover like on the series aircraft. The engines were later changed for the series Astazou and the plane renamed AX-01

Interesting information, but you might be getting your designations confused, Roland55. In Cicalesi and Rivas' Serie Fuerza Aerea volume on the Pucara, the aircraft at the MNA is indeed the prototype and was designated AX-01, but not AX-02, which was a different aircraft.

A-X2 was the serial originally given to the wooden built glider built under the direction of Reimar Horten, and the first prototype of the Pucara, also serialled A-X2 as seen in the image, which is reproduced in the book was originally named "Delfin". It became AX-01 following conversion to the production standard and is depicted as such in the museum.

AX-02 was the second prototype built following AX-01 and went to Bolivia and was destroyed in structural tests.

From the information available in the book I had to figure out what was being said as there's a typo in the designations in a different part of the book, which led me astray...

 

[Erdosain]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496622987075850242

View: https://twitter.com/RengelGonzalo/status/1496622987075850242

 

[Roland55]

A bit of an interesting look at the original prototype of the IA.58, or A-X2/AX-02 as it was called, the design was different for the nose and its engines weren't the french we all know, they were American Garrett engines. its also interesting to note that the whole cockpit had a different design (guns were more exposed and protruded from the fuselage and the nose wasn't covered by a single piece cover like on the series aircraft. The engines were later changed for the series Astazou and the plane renamed AX-01

Interesting information, but you might be getting your designations confused, Roland55. In Cicalesi and Rivas' Serie Fuerza Aerea volume on the Pucara, the aircraft at the MNA is indeed the prototype and was designated AX-01, but not AX-02, which was a different aircraft.

A-X2 was the serial originally given to the wooden built glider built under the direction of Reimar Horten, and the first prototype of the Pucara, also serialled A-X2 as seen in the image, which is reproduced in the book was originally named "Delfin". It became AX-01 following conversion to the production standard and is depicted as such in the museum.

AX-02 was the second prototype built following AX-01 and went to Bolivia and was destroyed in structural tests.

From the information available in the book I had to figure out what was being said as there's a typo in the designations in a different part of the book, which led me astray...

I went to check "the pucara story" that also has info regarding the other airframes and yes, the original survives, while the second prototype was destroyed.

 

[Fr05ty]

FMA IA-43 Pulqui III. Digital art by Alejandro Klichowski

Wasn't it the IA-40? The FMA's book from 2008 says so and the diagram they present with it also seems to imply it's the I.A.40
Would you happen to know where there might be more information about it? Schematics, full dimensions, weapons, engines, speed, etc.

 

[Erdosain]

FMA IA-43 Pulqui III. Digital art by Alejandro Klichowski

Wasn't it the IA-40? The FMA's book from 2008 says so and the diagram they present with it also seems to imply it's the I.A.40
Would you happen to know where there might be more information about it? Schematics, full dimensions, weapons, engines, speed, etc.

That book, although it was a titanic compilation task with everything designed in the FMA (cars, planes, rockets, etc.) has many mistakes. The aircraft that appears there as IA-40 is actually the IA-43, which would later be developed in India by Kurt Tank as HAL Marut

Themore accurate book "History of the Argentine Aeronautical Industry - Volume I" by Francisco Halbritter, says that the IA-40 was a version of the IA-35 Huanquero "Justicialista del Aire" equipped with the same engines but with a wooden monocoque fuselage, and then that in 1956-57 it was tested in wind tunnel a night fighter model, also called IA-40, which was nothing more than an academic work.

But, in the other hand Ricardo Burzaco in his book "Las Alas de Perón 2" says that the wood transport plane was the IA-43 and the HAL Marut style fighter was the IA-40.

I am more inclined to believe that what Francisco Halbritter states in his book is correct since his study of the FMA is more detailed.

He lives in La Cumbre, Córdoba, and had access to the FMA archive since his book was sponsored by Lockheed Martin Aircraft Argentina S.A. (the FMA in the hands of Lockheed at that time).

His file on civil and military aviation in Argentina is unparalleled, he is the director of a civil aviation magazine called LV that is unparalleled in Latin America, a true gem with information of all times.

In his archive he has 75,000 photos of Argentine civil aircraft and another 40,000 in negative / paper

 

[Erdosain]

A compilation of notes from "Aeroespacio" magazine on the FMA IA-68 ATL medium transport project and the EMBRAER / FMA CBA-123 Vector

 

[Erdosain]

 

[Erdosain]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1466762723467927556

View: https://twitter.com/RengelGonzalo/status/1466762723467927556?t=kfhgJgWq78SJeTo08A-xxQ&s=19

 

[Erdosain]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1478942978425171969

View: https://twitter.com/RengelGonzalo/status/1478942978425171969?t=S3tUyus3NEDdcP7y3U_8aw&s=19