Argentinian Unbuilt Projects

[Roland55]

"Pucara Charly"

 

[Erdosain]

Dos Décadas de Producción de la Fabrica Militar de Aviones
Two Decades of Production of the Military Aircraft Factory

Revista Nacional de Aeronáutica, Números correspondientes a los meses de Junio y Julio 1962.
National Aeronautical Magazine - June and July of 1962.

Desarrollo Aeroespacial Argentino - Pasado, Presente y Futuro | Dos Décadas de Producción de la Fabrica Militar de Aviones | Facebook

Dos Décadas de Producción de la Fabrica Militar de Aviones Revista Nacional de Aeronáutica, Números correspondientes a los meses de Junio y Julio 1962.

www.facebook.com

 

[Apophenia]

So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?

 

[Roland55]

So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?

An old article detailing most FMA projects and aircraft made.

 

[Apophenia]

So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?

An old article detailing most FMA projects and aircraft made.

Thanks. Would it be reproducible here?

 

[Roland55]

So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?

An old article detailing most FMA projects and aircraft made.

Thanks. Would it be reproducible here?

i guess? after all it looks a bit old. i dont see any issues with sharing it!

Also!

Horten in the I.Ae.37!!

 

[Erdosain]

So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?

I thought the group was public. But if you apply to be a member of the group, you can access the very interesting PDF files.

I had already uploaded the images on the previous page

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/argentinian-unbuilt-projects.211/page-6

 

[Roland55]

Metallic model of the IA-60 advanced trainer

In front (and behind) of it there is a model (also made of metal of the Pulqui 1 & 2), interestingly i have a pretty similar example of the Pulqui 1 model gifted to my Grandpa by FMA officials for his work in the plane.

 

[Roland55]

A recently disassembled Ia.58A in an interesting livery...this was one of the 2 examples that were sold to Mauritania, sadly for FMA a coup in Mauritania Halted and cancelled the sale for the aircraft. The 2 examples were absorbed/Purchased along another deal for The Argentine Air force, interestingly they conserved their livery, making them the only 2 units to ever use a desert camo.



Complete example with the Mauritanian Camo

 

[Roland55]

Something that i rarely seen being mentioned or covered are the upgrades of the Skyhawk family, some are well known, like the replacement of the cannons or the upgrade of navigational equipment, but in between this there were "lesser known" works to give them Countermeasures, more specifically RWR and Chaff/Flares. The only 2 models who received them were a certain number of Naval A-4Qs and also 2 Air Force A-4Cs with an indigenous RWR. The results of the Navy's testing is unknown, but the results of the Air Force were not satisfactory, thus the remaining fleet did not get the upgrade.

In the pic there is A-4Q "309" with a the RWR being clearly visible.

 

[Erdosain]

In my opinion, “Las Alas de Perón” has to be the most comprehensive book about the Golden age of Argentinian aviation industry.

Llevo esperando trece años a que aparezca un editor con el suficiente... "right stuff" para hacer justicia al extraordinario trabajo de Burzaco, publicando sus libros en ingles.
Tan dificil y arriesgado seria hacer una edicion en Amazon-Kindle?
Es una cuestion de ideologia?.
Que problema puede haber en publicar un trabajo tan tecnico con background historico de todos conocido? yo no he encontrado ningun obstaculo a mis publicaciones en el mundo anglosajon.
Un saludo a todos y mis respeto por los demas autores.

I withdraw what I have said in my previous post, although they occupy a broader period of the FMA, all the books that I cite take as a reference to Burzaco's book for that period.

I think that a corrected reissue is necessary, removing some myths and investigating projects that were recently released.

Unfortunately Alas de Peron is sold out and cannot be found in bookstores or on the web.

Luckily I have both editions of Alas de Perón

 

[Erdosain]

FMA IA-58C, Aeroespacio 437, January and February of 1984

 

[Erdosain]

FMA A-58C Pucará Charly
Aeroespacio 446, July -August 1985

 

[Roland55]

We can say finding pics of Charlie isn't something easy (also its nose sorta looks like a crow)

 

[Richard N]

Argentina converts Pucará attack turboprop into Fénix version - Air Data News

During the ceremony of the aircraft's deactivation at Reconquista airbase, held on October 4, the FAA presented the first “Pucará Fénix”, a revamped version

www.airway1.com

Pucará Fénix

In August (2019) Fuerza Aérea Argentina (FAA) had announced that its IA-58 Pucará turboprop would be withdrawn after 44 years. However, the force has decided that the aircraft will remain operational but in a new role.

During the ceremony of the aircraft’s deactivation at Reconquista airbase, held on October 4, the FAA presented the first “Pucará Fénix”, a revamped version of the Argentine-produced military aircraft. Instead of the attack function, the role of the aircraft will become border surveillance and patrolling operations.

To develop the Pucará Fénix (Phoenix), the Turbomeca Astazou engines were replaced by the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT-6A-62, which uses four-bladed propellers instead of three, and the aircraft received FLIR search sensors, synthetic aperture radar, targeting laser and satellite communication system.

The conversion of the Pucará Fénix was made by FAdeA (Fábrica Argentina de Aviones), former FMA (Fábrica Militar de Aviones), manufacturer that designed the Pucará. The Argentine military command still plans to modify two more aircraft soon and intends to keep the new version of Pucará in operation for another 15 or 20 years.

 

[Roland55]

The Fenix is going to get a pod that combines a radar and a FLIR Sensor (kinda like a designator pod). The first prototype of it was a simple container housing an AESA radar made by INVAP, it was seen being tested not long ago.


For now the "Fenix" is keeping the internal weapons, although the idea of removing all armament was envisioned, the prototype still has both 20mm and the 4 machine guns. Much like the Super Tucano, it could still have some potential for COIN (after the upgrade of course).


And interestingly the Fenix its not the first time the Pucara changed engines
The IA.66

 

[Erdosain]

The 1:10 scale model of the FMA IA-60 during the tests in the largest wind tunnel of the Aerodynamics Department of the Institute of Aeronautical and Space Research (IIAE)

Credits: FMA Archive via "Cartonero"

 

[kocovgoce]

FMA A-58C Pucará Charly
Aeroespacio 446, July -August 1985

Something this plane has radar? Only the text is not read well in the pictures

 

[Roland55]

FMA A-58C Pucará Charly
Aeroespacio 446, July -August 1985

Something this plane has radar? Only the text is not read well in the pictures

As far as i can remember, it didn't have a radar (i could be wrong tho)

 

[Roland55]

A bit of an interesting look at the original prototype of the IA.58, or A-X2/AX-02 as it was called, the design was different for the nose and its engines weren't the french we all know, they were American Garrett engines. its also interesting to note that the whole cockpit had a different design (guns were more exposed and protruded from the fuselage and the nose wasn't covered by a single piece cover like on the series aircraft. The engines were later changed for the series Astazou and the plane renamed AX-01

The reason of the change could be a better deal with France (who also supplied the Bastan for the Guarani II) or just that US made engines were subject to embargoes, were a bit lacking in performance compared to the french ones....who knows?

The pic is from the aircraft second presentation, behind it is the last Gloster Meteor to be overhauled in FMA.

Thankfully AX-02 survives, and we can find it in the Air museum, although i believe they dont have a series pucara to make a good comparison.

 

[S@lyut]

Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/index.html

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.

Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.

 

[COLDOWN]

Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/index.html

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.

Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.

Yes https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dW_tvLYwfbPqVVuvOp9itHOvUdn_BrGl/view?usp=sharing

 

[S@lyut]

Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/index.html

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.

Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.

Yes https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dW_tvLYwfbPqVVuvOp9itHOvUdn_BrGl/view?usp=sharing

Awesome !!! Thank you very much !!!

 

[Roland55]

I was going to post about the I.Ae.22DL prototypes, but i stumbled on this..


As far as i know, its supposed to be a "battery pack" to help the aircraft start easily in places where power wouldn't be really available. Pretty nifty i say...if all the sudden you find yourself deployed in the middle of a jungle or desert.

 

[Roland55]

Before the beloved I.Ae.22 "DL" there was...the FMA-21?...yes, the predecesor that lacked the I.Ae.XX designation was along the lines of a "testbed/demonstrator" rather than a prototype that was aimed for manufacture.

If you're familiar with the early/mid stages of the Argentine Army Air Corps (it wasn't air force yet), their first "modern" trainer was the North American NA-16, a low wing fixed landing gear prop that was used for training, Observation and as a light attack aircraft (thats a pretty recurring thing with trainers here).


With the creation of the "Aerotechnical" institute in 1943, they started working on the replacement of NA-16s, due to the war limiting the amount of materials available for this work, it was decided to work with wood (much like DeHavilland). The aircraft wasn't built from the ground up, as the Institute was leased the NA-18, the demonstrator that was used to promote the NA-16 to the Air Corps (that was bought along the order...another recurring thing). The trainer was strip from its wings, landing gear and engine, and replaced with indigenous parts (engine was replaced by an I.Ae.16 "El Gaucho"). and the result was...this:

The New plane was designated FMA-21 and it first flew in 1943. it would be kept on service until 1948 (a year after the retirement of the NA-16s). The testing and working made on the FMA-21 would be later applied to the 22DL, but major changes would be seen as the later was more inclined to the design of the "Texan" trainer.

 

[Erdosain]

Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
View attachment 663881

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.

that's the towed target

 

[Roland55]

Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
View attachment 663881

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.

that's the towed target

Target is open at the back, it has a pointier nose and lack the wheels, this was a “battery pack”

 

[Erdosain]

Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
[ATTACH = full] 663881 [/ ATTACH]

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.

ese es el objetivo remolcado

El objetivo está abierto en la parte posterior, tiene una punta más puntiaguda y carece de ruedas, esto era un "paquete de baterías"

Ok, you were right. It looks very handmade, maybe they only made one. I understand they called it "POD PUA"

Another photo of the orange "Pod PUA" in flight.

 

[Roland55]

Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
[ATTACH = full] 663881 [/ ATTACH]

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.

ese es el objetivo remolcado

El objetivo está abierto en la parte posterior, tiene una punta más puntiaguda y carece de ruedas, esto era un "paquete de baterías"

Ok, you were right. It looks very handmade, maybe they only made one. I understand they called it "POD PUA"

Another photo of the orange "Pod PUA" in flight.

View attachment 663959

Wow, thanks for the photo!! (another, enlarged by AI)

And here is a comparison with the target towing pod

 

[Erdosain]

 

[klem]

Fighter Dewoitine D.720 (1947), the last project of the French designer for the Argentine government and the FMA after the I.Ae.27 Pulqui I. I think it was rejected in favor of Pulqui II by Kurt Tank

The D.720 Dewoitine reminds me the Lockheed F-80 with its air intakes.

 

[Roland55]

INVAPs first mention of the Short range aerial radar that are currently under development.

 

[Roland55]

All news regarding the Ia.58C are good news (obviously, since there is not much about it )

Primer Vuelo del IA-63 Pampa y presentación oficial del Pucará IA-58 C

Primer Vuelo del IA-63 Pampa y presentación oficial del Pucará IA-58 C

avionesenargentina.com

On this 2x1 article (First flight of the Pampa and Presentation of the IA.58C) there is quite a bit about the rare prototype and its beginnings. (given the fact that the page protects all text and images from being copied, ill make the translation)

First Flight of the IA-63 Pampa trainer

On October 10th 1984 at 12hs the IA-63 Pampa serial EX-01 (first prototype) took its maiden flight from the airstrip at the Military Aviation school, commanded by ViceComodoro Genaro Mario Sciola in the back seat, while on the forward sea there was Mayor Horacio Armando Orefice. The IA-63 was escorted by a Morane Saulnier 760 "Paris" during the whole flight. The ceremony was preceded by the Chief of The Air Force, Brig My. Crespo and the Governor of the procure, Dr. Angeloz in between other military and Civilian Authorities.

Presentation of the IA-58C

At the same time that the Pampa took its maiden flight, the formal presentation of the IA-58C (Charly or Charlie, i like the first one best) was taking place.

The IA-58C was the third modification of the Original IA-58A (Alfa or Alpha) to improve in things like firepower and in certain aspects observed by pilots who flew the original type during the recent war with the Uk. The first modification (and perhaps the most noticeable one) was the elimination of the forward position, and in its place a 30mm DEFA cannon its added along with its ammo container, the two 20mm HISPANO SUIZA cannons are retained, it could also carry 2 MARTIN PESCADOR or MATRA MAGIC missiles, two of the four machine guns were removed and the remaining 2 were left mostly for training. Its Technical characteristics were similar to the original Alpha/Alfa model, but its aerodynamic penetration was higher, making it more maneuverable and agile.

The basis of the modification was to adapt the Pucara for Air-Air combat, this was done with the inclusion of AAMs and a proper HUD (things that the Series IA-58A aircraft lacked), Its payload capacity also rose to 1600Kg including bombs, rockets and missiles. The plane also saw the addition of RWR, and Heat dissipators to reduce its IR image to Heat seeking missiles.

In terms of avionics, the aircraft received an Omega/VLF system, an altimeter radar for navigation, NOE (Map of earth) for following the topographic profile of the zone, this was of great help in defended zones. In terms of communications HF-VHF-FM-AM satisfied all the tactical needs of communications with friendly surface forces and with Command in bases. Another 2 things that were added were a Garret Air conditioner and a Photo Sonics camera.

Today this aircraft its exposed in the "Area Material Rio Cuarto", who was presented time after being restored during the Unit's 75 Anniversary.

 

[Erdosain]

FMA IA-58C take off and in flight

 

[Erdosain]

Supposedly this would be a VLJ variant of the IA-63 Pampa, made at the request of a foreign millionaire by LMAASA in collaboration with the Aeronautical University Institute (IUA) of the Argentine Air Force (FAA).

There is not much information about it or official data to prove its veracity

 

[Erdosain]

Aviones en Argentina: Project IA-37 Delta Wing - Its first flight

Proyecto I.A. 37 Ala Delta , su primer vuelo

Proyecto I.A. 37 Ala Delta , su primer vuelo

avionesenargentina.com

 

[blockhaj]

Today June 16, 2020 marks the 70th anniversary of the first flight of the prototype of the supersonic interceptor fighter I.Ae 33 Pulqui II E-1 The same was carried out on the Runway of the Military School of Parachuting, on June 16, 1950 at controls of Captain Edmundo Weiss The plane in question was equipped with a Rolls Royce "Nene" engine with a takeoff thrust of 2300 kg with a maximum speed of 1,040 K / Hs This same aircraft was presented on February 8, 1951 in the Aeropark before the then President General Juan Domingo Perón and the Prince Consort of the Netherlands being its pilot Kurt Tank Source FMA Historical Book

Sorry for necroing an old message, but i wonder what source the name E-1 comes from? E-1 kind of makes sense as it is the first Pulqui II to fly, but it is also the second prototype. Was the third prototype called E-2 etc? Which book is the "FMA Historical Book"?

 

[blockhaj]

I started digging myself and found this: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
If this text is correct then most books and sources about the Pulqui II are incorrect, with only 4 complete prototypes being made.

1. E-1- first prototype, armed with four 20 mm MG-151 cannons. First flight: June 16, 1950. Crashed: May 1951.
2. E-2 - second prototype, initially unarmed and planned for static tests but was later modified to become flight worthy when the E-3 crashed in 1952. The modification was done in 1953 and included: first fitting of the planned armament of four 20 mm HS 804 cannons, one wing fence per wing, four trakes on the tail, air brakes, increased fuel capacity from 2,000 to 3,000 liters (as per E-3), strengthened landing gear (as per E-3), in-flight adjustable rudder (as per E-3). This modification is what i believe most people call "prototype 04" and the "prototype 02m" (modified), etc. Crashed 1956.
3. E-3 - third prototype, unarmed. Modifications from E-1: increased fuel capacity (2,000 to 3,000 liters), strengthened landing gear, in-flight adjustable rudder. First flight: early 1952. Crashed october 1952.
4. E-4 - fourth prototype, never completed with parts going into the E-5.
5. E-5 - fifth prototype, completed in 1959 using parts from E-4 and E-6 as the final Pulqui II. It is called "Pulqui IIe" at times but was equal to the final E-2 but without armament. First flight: May 1960. Given to "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" at the end of 1960.
6. E-6 - sixth prototype, never completed with parts going into the E-5.

 

[iverson]

Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.

 

[Erdosain]

Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.

This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.