Alternative RAF, 1936-41?

Does anyone know when the prototypes for the Fairey P.4/34 and Hawker Henley were ordered?

The British Aircraft Specifications File says "Two prototypes of each design were ordered in November 1934?"

That doesn't doesn't look right to me as Specification P.4/34 was issued to tender on 12.11.34

I think a few months would pass between issuing the specification and ordering the aircraft. The aircraft firms have to prepare their tenders that the Air Ministry has to examine before it decides which designs are the best before ordering any prototypes. E.g. 4 months passed between the issuing of Spec. F.36/34 to Hawker in August 1934 and the letting of Contract 357483/34 for the sole Hurricane prototype on 01.12.34.

Also the serial numbers were K5099 & K7555 for the for the Fairey P.4/34 and K5115 & K7554 for the Henley prototypes. That leads me to think that the K7554 and K7555 were ordered sometime after K5099 & K5115 because they'd have had consecutive serial numbers if they'd been ordered on the same date.
 
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More questions about the Hawker Henley.
  • When was Contract 540805/36 for 400 Hawker Henleys let to Gloster?
  • When was it reduced to 200 aircraft?
    • According to the Putnams on RAF aircraft the number on order was reduced to 200 aircraft in May 1937.
    • Can anyone corroborate that?
  • When did the first Gloster-built Henley fly?
    • I know when it was delivered (November 1938) but I want to know when it first flew too.
Two questions about the Hawker Hotspur.
  • When was Contract 527115/36 for 389 Hawker Hotspurs let to Avro?
    • I think it was 03.06.36 because.
      • The first 600 Hurricanes were ordered to Contract 527112/36 on 03.06.36.
        • And.
      • The first 310 Spitfires were ordered to Contract 527113/36 on 03.06.36.
    • Can anyone confirm that the contract was let on 03.06.36?
  • When was the contract cancelled?
    • They were to have been built to Specification 17/36 and The British Aircraft Specification File says "It was clear that all factories in the Hawker Siddeley Group were committed to production of aircraft already accepted, and the Hotspur project to abandoned".
    • So the Boulton Paul Defiant (the Hotsupr's rival to Specification F.9/35) was ordered into production.
      • The first 87 production aircraft were ordered to Contract 62289/37 on 28.04.37.
      • The first production aircraft flew on 30.07.39 and they were delivered from August 1939 to May 1940.
    • Therefore, I think it was sometime between June 1936 and April 1937.
 
ArtosStark said:
I unfortunately don’t have Colin Sinnot’s book where fleshes out his arguments in more detail but I have read his thesis online. And IIRC there is what seems to me to be a possibility to have the Henley (or something close) replace the Battle entirely.

In the 20’s the RAF had two kinds of bombers. Light types that were intended to use their speed to get in and out of French airspace (in the 20’s and 30’s the RAF’s abilities were measured against a conflict with France) quickly, minimizing the amount of time the AdA would have to intercept them. They were thus lightly armed and as light and fast as possible. The other type were heavier and slower but better armed. They would depend on their armament for defence and fly at night to avoid most of the strongest fighter defence. Somewhat paralleling the later Heavy bomber/Mosquito split.

In the late 20’s the fast light type was represented by the Hawker Hart while the heavy night bomber was the BP Sidestrand. The Hart was obviously the better of the two in almost every way. And they could both carry about the same bomb load!

The CAS of the day thought that this may prove that single engine bombers were just inevitably superior to twin engine types. He conceded, however, that it was an unfair contest as the Sidestrand was older and more obsolete than the Hart. He thus thought to use the specs intended to replace the two aircraft as a comparative test to settle the issue.

The Sidestrand was up for replacement first, and the advancements in technology allowed this spec to call for a doubled bomb load of 1000 lbs. I can’t remember exactly which aircraft ending up coming out of this spec but it might have been the Wellesley? In any case, when it came time to replace the Hart, the bomb load was also doubled so that the two specs could be compared directly. Despite the objections of Fairey and most likely others involved, both this spec and the single engine requirements were held to. And the result was the Battle. This came just in time to be locked in as the aircraft built by the early shadow factory program and was built in large numbers.

However, part way through the process, perhaps due to the objections of Fairey and others, it was realized that the enlarged aircraft was going to be more of a single engined medium bomber than a Hart replacement. Thus a second spec was issued reducing the bomb load back to 500 lbs and allowing for better performance. The winner of this one was the Henley with the Fairey P.4/34 being the runner up. However, by that time the official competitor had finally switched to Germany, and light bombers were considered to have neither the range nor the bomb load for the task at hand. Thus interest in the Henley died and those that were purchased were generally used for target towing.

So, if you can convince the CAS and/or the specifications writers for the OTL Battle spec that the increase in bomb load will be detrimental and that a real Hart replacement is needed first (or perhaps only) then what you will probably get is an earlier Henley and Fairey P.4/34. Possibly with slightly earlier engines. The winner will likely still be chosen to be built to train up new workers in the shadow factories and be built in numbers. It would then be punted off into the Army Cooperation squadrons as the RAF interest turns to longer range interdiction and strategic bombing. While the Battle (if it exists at all) will be used in other roles as the niche for light bombers is eliminated.

And, voila! You have pilots facing AA and enemy controlled skies in Henley’s instead of Battles! They will still be lost in large numbers and probably not achieve the results asked for, but a few more of them may survive.
Click to expand...

Do you have the link to that thesis, think I have his book somewhere......definatley read something by him pointing out as you say France was considered the target when ranges and capability were being considered.
 
Contracts for Hawker Hurricanes that were let to Hawker Aircraft Limited.
  • One prototype to Contract 357483/34 let on 01.12.34.
    • Flight was on 06.11.35.
    • It was delivered to the Aeroplane & Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) in February 1936.
  • 600 ordered to Contract 527112/36 on 03.06.36 for delivery by 31.03.39.
    • First flight of L5147 on 12.10.37.
    • Delivered 15.12.37 to 06.10.39 according to the Putnams on Hawker Aircraft.
    • Delivered December 1937 to November 1939 according to the Air Britain book on L1000 to L9999.
  • 300 ordered to Contract 692230/37 and delivered from 29.09.39 to 01.05.40.
    • That is according to the the Air Britain book on N1000 to N9999.
    • According to the Putnams on Hawker aircraft it was Contract 751458/38.
    • Although the Air Britain book on R1000 to R9999 says that 4 replacement aircraft were ordered to Contract 751458/38, but they were cancelled.
    • Which is correct? It could be both. They could have originally been ordered to one contract and then re-ordered to the other due to some
    • When were these contracts let?
  • 500 ordered to Contract 962371/38 and delivered from 21.02.40 to 20.07.40.
    • When was this contract let?
    • Bowyer wrote on Page 43 of "Aircraft for the Few" that 1,000 Hurricanes were ordered in November 1938. They may be the 500 aircraft ordered to this contract and the first 500 aircraft ordered from Gloster.
  • 48 which the sources said were to replace operational attrition.
    • 24 to Contract 962371/38 and delivered in July 1940.
    • 20 to Contract 964753/38 and delivered from September 1940 to January 1941.
    • 4 to Contract 751458/38 that were cancelled.
    • When were these replacement aircraft ordered?
  • 8,703 ordered to Contract 62305/39 of which 203 were cancelled and 8,500 were built.
    • They were delivered from 02.07.40 to 24.05.44.
    • This was the last contract let to Hawker and brought the total (including the prototype and replacements) to 10,152 Hurricanes ordered of which 207 were cancelled and 9,945 were built.
    • The 8,703 aircraft weren't ordered at once as the contract was divided into 19 parts.
    • Does anyone know if any were ordered before September 1939?
    • And if so, how many were ordered and on what date(s) were they ordered?
 
Production of the Hurricane by other firms.
The Gloster Aircraft Company Limited

3,020 ordered of which 270 were cancelled and 2,750 were delivered from November 1939 to March 1942.
  • 500 to Contract 962371/38 that were delivered from November 1939 to June 1940.
  • 100 to Contract 19773/39 that were delivered from July 1940 to August 1940.
  • 2,420 to Contract 85730/40 of which:
    • 270 were cancelled.
      • And.
    • 2,150 were delivered from August 1940 to March 1942.
Does anyone know when these contracts were let?
  • I think 962371/38 was let in November 1938. See Post 284 for why I think so.
  • Contract 85730/40 was in five parts.
The Austin Motor Company Limited.
  • 400 were ordered to Contract 124304/40.
  • The first aircraft flew on 08.10.40.
  • 300 were delivered from February 1941 to October 1942.
  • 100 were cancelled.
Does anyone know when this contract was let?

The Canadian Car & Foundry Company, Limited

1,055 were ordered to British account of which 2 were cancelled and 1,053 were built.
  • The pilot production batch of 40 aircraft were built to Contract 964753/38 which was let in November 1938.
    • The first aircraft flew on 10.01.40
    • They were delivered from March 1940 to August 1940.
  • This was followed by 1,013 aircraft built in five series production batches.
    • 100 delivered from November 1940 to April 1941.
    • 340 delivered from March 1941 to May 1942.
    • 100 delivered from March 1942 to January 1943.
    • 225 aircraft delivered from November 1941 to April 1942.
    • 248 delivered from April 1942 to June 1943.
Does anyone know when the series production aircraft were ordered?

Another 400 Hurricanes were built to Canadian account of which 150 were delivered to the RAF between June 1943 and July 1943. That brought the total number of CC&F Hurricanes to 1,455 ordered of which 2 were cancelled and 1,453 were built.

Summary
  • 15,027 Hurricanes ordered.
    • Of which.
  • 14,627 were to British account and 400 to Canadian account.
    • Of which.
  • 579 were cancelled.
    • And.
  • 14,448 were built.
    • Of which.
  • 14,198 received a British military serial number.
 
Theses are to expand the tree of knowledge.. and to correct Conventional Wisdom. Sinnott's multiple corrections include trashing that:
- Sir Geo DH forced his idea of a Speed Bomber (Mosquito) through a hostile bunch of Airships (that's in Postan's Weapons Official History);
- (then S/L, later AM) Sorley invented and implemented 8x .303 for Hurricane/Spitfire;
- Hurricane and Spitfire were initiated PV by visionary contrarians despite those Airships (Very Senior Officers)..

He also displays that area bombing was not a desperate response to 1939/40 Day Bomber attrition, but was of 1923 origin.
-
 
Apophenia said:
Colin S. Sinnott, The RAF and Aircraft Design Air Staff Operational Requirements 1923-1939, Routledge, 2014, isbn 9780415761307.
Click to expand...
It's not the most exciting read, but is a great example of looking at how requirements (at multiple levels) were developed and then progressed into real hardware which was used operationally to then look at whether the requirements were correct.
 

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