Alternative RAF, 1936-41?

If I had time I would do a table to prove that the 1,256 Bothas ordered were intended to replace the Anson in the 11 G.R. squadrons in Coastal Command and to equip more than a few G.R. squadrons that were to be formed in the Overseas Commands as part of Schemes F & L. The Beaufort was to equip the existing torpedo-bomber squadrons in Coastal Command & Singapore and the new squadrons to be formed at Hong Kong & Malta as part of Schemes F & L.

Unfortunately, reality was that Botha was a waste of time and resources (both material and that of man-hours). RAF's intentions and hopes notwithstanding.
So again: I suggest that whole Botha program is axed before the mock-up stage.

Unless you're being sarcastic No. 608 squadron went from Ansons to Bothas not the other way around. Then it operated Blenheims for a few months before converting to the Hudson

Sorry, I've misread this:

The sole squadron that was equipped with the type (No. 608) was a G.R. squadron that had formerly been equipped with Ansons.
 
Airplanes like Botha and Defiant should only be built in small numbers. Test fly them a few times, then write down lessons-learned and move on to better flying airplanes.
 
If I had time I would do a table to prove that the 1,256 Bothas ordered were intended to replace the Anson in the 11 G.R. squadrons in Coastal Command and to equip more than a few G.R. squadrons that were to be formed in the Overseas Commands as part of Schemes F & L. The Beaufort was to equip the existing torpedo-bomber squadrons in Coastal Command & Singapore and the new squadrons to be formed at Hong Kong & Malta as part of Schemes F & L.
Unfortunately, reality was that Botha was a waste of time and resources (both material and that of man-hours). RAF's intentions and hopes notwithstanding. So again: I suggest that whole Botha program is axed before the mock-up stage.
Airplanes like Botha and Defiant should only be built in small numbers. Test fly them a few times, then write down lessons-learned and move on to better flying airplanes.
Neither of those suggestions will work because from about 1936 the RAF started ordering aircraft into production "off the drawing board" which means they placed production contracts before the prototype flew and in some cases before it was even ordered. This was in order to cut several years off the development phase to get the aircraft into service sooner.

Before this policy was implemented the prototypes were evaluated by the A&AEE or MAEE & production contracts were placed for the best one or two. This process also allowed lessons learned from the prototype to be incorporated into the production aircraft.

Had the old procedure been followed the ALT-Botha would have entered RAF service free of the defects that plagued the real aircraft and this would have included more powerful engines. This would have been because the problems (such as it was under powered) would have been revealed when the prototype was tested and the required improvements would have been incorporated into the production aircraft. However, it would have entered service up to two or three years later than the Real-Botha.

Therefore, some of the types ordered in this period were bound to be failures and (as far as I know) the Air Ministry knew that but it was a risk that had to be taken.

For what it's worth I agree that the Botha and Defiant should have never been ordered in the first place and to that list I'd also add the De Havilland Don trainer and Saro Lerwick flying boat. However, we need different causes to achieve the desired effect.
 
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We are drifting from ALT to Fantasy, because we are informed by hindsight. No-one ordered Lerwick &tc expecting failure, just as Freeman did not know his Folly, a wooden unarmed Speed Bomber, would become...what it did. Spitfire would have been chopped in 1938 if Beaufighter, Whirlwind, cannon had been a bit better a bit sooner. Ministers did what seemed a good idea at the time. Risk. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

ALT is of value only when we can suggest a course realistic at the time decision-makers did what they did, not as we now ALT-propose. So: I've just persevered through an ALT that fails on that test: G.Baughen, RAF on the Offensive, 1940-41, which castigates all involved in choosing Heavy, over (disdained) Army Co-op, thus causing the succession of retreats by the pre-War Regular (Colonial garrison) Army.

Go to the UK Election, 14/11/35 that UK PM Baldwin won, instantly funding for blockade/bombardment by Battleships, armoured carriers, Heavies, to the detriment of a large Expeditionary Force to sit behind the Maginot ready to mow them down, Somme-like. At the time that was not only a good idea, but was also courageous: some of the Projects then funded were kept secret, not from Germany but from us, the funding-voters. As late as the day before Austrian Anschluss, the Labour Opposition and much of the public, were Opposed to Merchants of Death, and were loudly for Disarmament by Example.

So the actual ALT, 11/35-4/38 would be: no Re-armament, not Better Re-armament. We should thank Chancellor, then PM Chamberlain for what was done: after Munich, 9/38: "Never from No.10 did any order come to slow up anything....we were encouraged and approved to double our efforts" (e.g.: to buy anything that flew, or might soon, in US) U/SoS Air H.Balfour, Wings Over Westminster,P.111.
 
Is there anything realistic that can be done to get the Centaurus & Griffon engines into service sooner and to avoid the Sabre's extended teething troubles & the failure of the Vulture?
 
I asked the above question in relation to the "RAF with better bombers" thread as well as this one. Having reliable engines in the power class of the Centaurus, Griffon, Sabre & Vulture in the second half of 1940 opens up some interesting possibilities.
 
Is there anything realistic that can be done to get the Centaurus & Griffon engines into service sooner and to avoid the Sabre's extended teething troubles & the failure of the Vulture?
AIUI though both engines had their difficulties a major reason the Centaurus and Griffon were slow to come to use was that the earlier engines (Merlin’s and Hercules) absorbed the development and there wasn’t a strong call for an engine in the 2000 hp range immediately. So to get them in place earlier you probably either need a stronger official desire for them sooner (possibly at the expense of work on earlier engines) or more development resources to throw around.

The Sabre probably needed new management. Napier had some good engineers but no chief designer and the company leadership were a little reluctant to spend scarce resources on R and D or on modernizing production. So Napier had a very outdated primary production facility and too few people to oversee the expansion through the shadow scheme. This led to poor reliability and slow development. The loan from Bristol of Taurus cylinders showed them the way forward on their largest engineering problem but IIUC it took EE to supply the management and the resources necessary to make the company a viable producer. So to improve the Sabre you probably have to put EE in charge earlier. Maybe in 1935/1936 when the Shadow scheme is getting underway?
 
Is there anything realistic that can be done to get the Centaurus & Griffon engines into service sooner and to avoid the Sabre's extended teething troubles & the failure of the Vulture?

Ha !!
My favourite hobby horse . . .
Since Bristol were already 'helping' Napier with the Sabre engine sleeves, have Bristol take over Napier, chop the Sabre, move 'the simple stuff' ( Pegasus, other 'small' engines), to Napier's and let Bristol concentrate on Centaurus and Hercules.
As for Griffon Vulture / Griffon, the problem was that both of these engines were RR products, and were competing for resources with each other, and the Merlin. AIUI, the Vulture was effectively sorted out when it was chopped, and it was chopped for production / industrial reasons, rather than technical ones . . . As for Griffon, Merlin was the priority, and developed Merlins were soon producing equivalent power to contemporary Griffons in a smaller package.

cheers,
Robin.
 
I've been thinking of a way to get more use out of the Defiant in this scenario . . .
If, IF, the Air Staff can be reminded of the role played by the RAF's ground attack DH.5s and Camels, could the concept be resurrected in 1939 or 1940?. Either switch the Hurricane to ground attack, effectively becoming the 'Hurribomber', and make up the fighter shortfall with the BP P.94 single seat Defiant, or, given that removing the turret, guns, ammo, and gunner saves 787lbs weight from the Defiant, and adding back four guns, their ammo, and a gunsight still leaves 590lbs available for bombs and maybe some armour, use the Defiant in the ground attack role instead . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 
We need Calum Douglas, Secret Horsepower Race. He and others may offer thoughts on metallurgy, valves poppet and sleeve, lubricants and superchargers. May I offer some points on the business side, where the established "Ring" of qualified designers simply prejudiced Defence of the Realm. RAE/A.M funded Hyper Power amply; industry stumbled amply. “Peregrine, Vulture, Sabre, Hercules VI, Centaurus, Griffon are outstanding examples of (hopes) disappointed or deferred” Postan,Official History, War Prodn,P167. Napier Design Dept. “devoid of drive...inadequacy (MAP) forced through a drastic reform.” Postan, A/c Prodn. Quality, Pp.37/8/133.

Ministers, seized by the notion that "draughtsmen" Ruled OK!, were in short supply, declined licence Proposals from wannabee newbies (for small engines and for Hispano-Suiza, P&W); Fairey spent £100K, with a modest A.M. contribution to run P.24 Monarch (2,200hp, 1938/9). But the workload of bringing <2,000hp engines to a level of reliability and ease of fabrication fit to meet Rearmament demand meant that the Ring could not also do Hyper. How did Hives think RR (ready to exit Aero in 1935) in 1939 could turn greenfields into high-volume producers, while trying to develop multiple new types, whilst ever-improving Merlin? If he banished his best and finest Managers thither, who is left to mind the home shop?

What Ministers did was:
* to give Napier a new Agency Factory in Liverpool, staffed by bright girls wishing to be taught how to give our boys the tools to do the job - Sabre engines. When Napier failed to do that MAP put in a Management team from Standard Motors. When that didn't work MAP invited English Electric to buy Napier;
* urged HS Group to get a grip on ASM to produce and support Cheetah/Tiger and to stop wasting effort on various Hounds (upto 4,000hp) when they couldn't churn out puppies;
* culled RR's aviary, to attend to more Merlins, to make Griffon work, asked them to thank MAP nicely for giving them Crewe and Hillingdon Agency Factories, and now please to aid Ford and Packard (RR had tried in 1939 to drag their feet on aid to imposed second sources, asserting proprietary interest in the product). There was a War in prospect.
* explored licenced Centaurus in GM and Canada, Bristol seen to be slow and already attempting yet bigger Orion; and:
* to accelerate US production, truly vast sums were spent (by France, too) on expanding US capacity (a "British Wing" was built at P&W/Hartford).

So, to OP's Q: what was not done, that could have been done? Well: choose in 1937-ish one of Bristol, RR to do Hyper, the other to stay with Hercules/Merlin.
It was truly shocking that MAP built at humungous cost an underground factory at Corsham to build Centaurus even if Patchway were bombed, yet so slow and bugged was Centaurus that its sole combat success was U-927, 24/2/45, Warwick G.R.V. But if that had been foreseen and all bets placed on Griffon...would that have arrived quicker?

I think the A is...nothing really.
 
...
* explored licenced Centaurus in GM and Canada, Bristol seen to be slow ...

Does that mean that wartime Centaurus production in North America was seriously considered?

Does "in GM and Canada" mean options of by GM in the US and in Canada? Or are we talking about GM in Oshawa?
 
"seriously": maybe not.
House of Commons was told by Air Ministry 14/2/39 that no RAF aircraft built in Canada would have engines built in Canada, so Hampden was to have Bristol-built Pegasus; Stirling II, US-built Wright R-2800. Air Ministry (14/5/40: MAP) 4-8/40 explored much in US, authorised to spend $ "recklessly". Scope of discussion included US licences for UK kit, almost all abortive, not, as is Received Wisdom, Not Invented Here - UK was to pay, but on very practical issues such as fastener standards. That would be a factor in UK not deploying, say P-36 on hand but still in packing cases* when our backs were to the wall that summer.

Licenced Centaurus was one item. Outcome was led by GM President W.S.Knudsen (to be US Army's sole 3 star recruit) in National Defense Advisory Committee, who caused all US industrialists except Henry Ford to decide to take our money. UK bought 3,174 Wright Cyclones (inc for 140 Stirling II on order from CAA, Canada) for $51.5Mn (UK cash: no US Lend/Lease till 4/41), inc >$20M for plant capacity expansion. We also gave GM >$6Mn for expansion at Allison, $20Mn for Packard, $15Mn P&W. (Source: P.88,HD Hall/SS Wrigley, Official Hist WW2, Civil Series, Studies of Overseas Supply, HMSO,1956 and Pp 288/9, HD Hall N.American Supply,HMSO,1953).

So "GM" probably meant its Allison Div.

(*amended 12/2/25 for clarity)
 
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How did Hives think RR (ready to exit Aero in 1935)
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but could you expand on this? I know less about Rolls’s history as a company than I do about their products, and it’s very surprising that one of the premier engine manufacturers might have given up on it before their any of their masterpieces hit the market.
 
Mr T: M.M.Postan, Br.War Prodn, HMSO,1952,P.18: '35/36 orders for Hart-variants with RR Kestrels “revived Hawkers and prevented RR
from abandoning (aero-engine prodn) started them on (the) road to perfection.”
 
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but could you expand on this? I know less about Rolls’s history as a company than I do about their products, and it’s very surprising that one of the premier engine manufacturers might have given up on it before their any of their masterpieces hit the market.
Mr T: M.M.Postan, Br.War Prodn, HMSO,1952,P.18: '35/36 orders for Hart-variants with RR Kestrels “revived Hawkers and prevented RR
from abandoning (aero-engine prodn) started them on (the) road to perfection.”
For what it's worth a transcript of that book is on the Hypwerwar website.

Here's a link to it.
 
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Mr T: M.M.Postan, Br.War Prodn, HMSO,1952,P.18: '35/36 orders for Hart-variants with RR Kestrels “revived Hawkers and prevented RR
from abandoning (aero-engine prodn) started them on (the) road to perfection.”
Thank you!
 
Hi Zen,

Bit of necromancy to just throw this in.

We also have a thread on that design here:


My conclusion in a nutshell: "Overall, the Gloster F.9/37 is much larger in all dimensions than the Westland Whirlwind, I really wonder if it's realistically possible that it was just 20 mph slower than the Whirlwind on the same engine!"

It's actually about the same size and weight as the Me 110, which had engines that were closer to the Merlin than the Peregrine or Taurus. If a Merlin-engined Gloster F.9/37 would be viable, that might have an overall more competitive performance, I guess.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
It is interesting to try and draw a short list of RAF twin engine fighters
-Westland Whirlwind ------- with 2*Peregrines
-De Havilland Mosquito ---- with 2*Merlins
-Gloster F.9/37 -------------- with 2*Taurus
-Bristol Beaufighter --------- with 2*Hercules

All four of them very remarquable planes. Is there something similar with a pair of Griffons ? I was thinking about the DH Hornet but no, it still had Merlins...
 
Have Gloster make a monoplane fighter instead of Gladiator.
Bit of necromancy to just throw this in.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Gloster F.9/37 - Wikipedia


en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
The Gloster F.9/37 made its first flight on 3rd April 1939. Even if it had been ordered into production "off the drawing board" in 1937 it would have been early 1940 before the first production aircraft flew and mid-1940 before the first squadron formed.

In the meantime 603 Gladiators were ordered to British contracts. 303 were delivered between February 1937 and February 1939. The remaining 300 would be delivered between March 1939 and April 1940. Furthermore, another 143 Gladiators were built to direct export contracts.
 
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Hi Zen,
We also have a thread on that design here:
My conclusion in a nutshell: "Overall, the Gloster F.9/37 is much larger in all dimensions than the Westland Whirlwind, I really wonder if it's realistically possible that it was just 20 mph slower than the Whirlwind on the same engine!"
It's actually about the same size and weight as the Me 110, which had engines that were closer to the Merlin than the Peregrine or Taurus. If a Merlin-engined Gloster F.9/37 would be viable, that might have an overall more competitive performance, I guess.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)

Considering that three Merlin-powered F.9/37 will cost perhaps as much as 5 Spitfires, I don't see it bringing much to the table. If British have Merlins to burn, making more Spitfires, Mosquitoes and Lancasters is probably a better suggestion. Stuff the Merlins in Mustangs.
The non-Merlin F.9/39 does not have a lot going on for it as a day fighter. It might've been good fighter-bomber, though, providing that Taurus engines are fixed.
Possibly the best niche would've been that of the night fighter, releasing as much of the Mosquitoes to the bomber duties.
 
Considering that three Merlin-powered F.9/37 will cost perhaps as much as 5 Spitfires, I don't see it bringing much to the table. If British have Merlins to burn, making more Spitfires, Mosquitoes and Lancasters is probably a better suggestion. Stuff the Merlins in Mustangs.
The non-Merlin F.9/39 does not have a lot going on for it as a day fighter. It might've been good fighter-bomber, though, providing that Taurus engines are fixed.
Possibly the best niche would've been that of the night fighter, releasing as much of the Mosquitoes to the bomber duties.
The Gloster F.9/37 made its first flight on 03.04.39 and the Bristol Beaufighter made its first flight on 17.07.39 so if the F.9/39 will be built instead of anything it will be instead of the Beaufighter because they're both twin-engine heavy fighters.
 
It is interesting to try and draw a short list of RAF twin engine fighters
-Westland Whirlwind ------- with 2*Peregrines
-De Havilland Mosquito ---- with 2*Merlins
-Gloster F.9/37 -------------- with 2*Taurus
-Bristol Beaufighter --------- with 2*Hercules

All four of them very remarquable planes. Is there something similar with a pair of Griffons ? I was thinking about the DH Hornet but no, it still had Merlins...
The Beaufighter was trialled with Griffons

1739522539348.jpeg
 
The Gloster F.9/37 made its first flight on 03.04.39 and the Bristol Beaufighter made its first flight on 17.07.39 so if the F.9/39 will be built instead of anything it will be instead of the Beaufighter because they're both twin-engine heavy fighters.
There is a lot of the stuff that ought to be axed before we arrive at Beaufighter.
Like the best part of Blenheim production come winter of 1940/41, 1000+ worth of Defiants, another 1000 of Battles (ie. the complete Austin production, from 2000+ produced total), and of course the Botha (560 2-engined aircraft that were as perfect waste of resources as possible).
 
Spot on. Defiants and Battles wasted 3000 Merlins all by themselves. Of course this doesn't mean "3000 more Hurricanes", as there were bottlenecks elsewhere...
 
Spot on. Defiants and Battles wasted 3000 Merlins all by themselves. Of course this doesn't mean "3000 more Hurricanes", as there were bottlenecks elsewhere...
What it might've meant is extra 1000 Spitfires (Boulton Paul licence production, 1:1 vs. Defiants) and extra 1200 Hurricanes (Austin production instead of the Battles) - all before Op Barbarossa is underway*.
Having such a surplus of Spitfires further means that Hurricanes can go overseas already in winter of 1939/40, so there is no need that any RAF's pilot is seated in a Gladiator or in a Buffalo. Or, there is no pressing need to have Merlin XX installed on the Hurricane (allowing it to close the performance gap vs. the Bf 109E), so that engine can be installed on the Spitfires come BoB = 380 mph Spitfire for Autumn of 1940. Might even see that Spitfire III is actually made.

(Hurricane gets the Merlin XII for the Bob, and Merlin 45 from the winter of 1940/41 on)

A surplus of Spitfires and Hurricanes allows that RAF/AM is less stingy on the suggestion that Sea Hurricane and Seafire are made.

*assumes Fairey still makes the Battles
 
Were all Battles and Defiants built at the same time as Hurricanes and Spitfires or did they enter production a bit before that? In that case not all of those would translate into Hurris and Spits.
 
Between 15/11/35 (Baldwin won Gen.Election) and 22/3/38 (Cabinet accepted “compulsion”) Ministers tried to rearm without impeding
,“the course of normal trade" (the analogy is precise with NATO/Euro members today trying to deal with Threata at <2% GDP on Defence).
They tried to build shadow industrial capacity in General Engineering, especially auto, while continuing civil business. Factories were built/ expanded/tooled...but sparsely manned before civil work was shut down 23/3/38. 1935-era products were put in as templates (so: Austin/ Fairey Battle, Rootes/Blenheim), hoping that would prepare new-hire female and Irish immigrant "hands" to cope with proper types later.

(Staff involved in (to be) MAP included a Mr Disney and a Mr Lemon!). It was not their fault that into 1943 proper types were delayed, so they still built Whitley (-6/43), Hurrricane (--5/44), Henley/Albemarle/Botha at all.

(A to EV #271 is that in 1937-38 the 3 monoplane mg fighters H/S/Defiant) were expected to have short Service careers deployed in N.France by day (Defiant UK inc by night) to deal with Stukas and Light Bombers caged behind the Maginot. Escort long range cannon twins would roam into Germany. It was sheer luck that H and S were ordered in large quatities in time (just) to cope in Summer,1940. Plans had been to put other types into HAL and V-S factories.
 
Were all Battles and Defiants built at the same time as Hurricanes and Spitfires or did they enter production a bit before that? In that case not all of those would translate into Hurris and Spits.

Hurricane and Spitfire pre-date Defiant, both in the time of 1st flight and start of production. Between 1st Sept 1939 and 31st Dec 1939, total Hurricane + Spitfire production was 400+, while just 16 Defiants were made in the same time.

As for the Austin-produced Battles, this is what Wikipedia says:
Subsequently, as part of government-led wartime production planning, a shadow factory operated by the Austin Motor Company at Cofton Hackett, Longbridge, also produced the type, manufacturing a total of 1,029 aircraft to Specification P.32/36. On 22 July 1938, the first Austin-built Battle, L4935, conducted its maiden flight.

Per this table, production of the Battles between September of 1939 and the end of 1940 was 577 (bombers) + 466 (trainers) = 1043.

(Staff involved in (to be) MAP included a Mr Disney and a Mr Lemon!). It was not their fault that into 1943 proper types were delayed, so they still built Whitley (-6/43), Hurrricane (--5/44), Henley/Albemarle/Botha at all.

Someone's fault was that Botha was manufactured at all. It is mind-boggling that two factories were making them
Proper types were in pipeline and/or in production by 1938 (Hurricane, Spifire), 1941 (Halifax, Mosquito), 1942 (Lancaster). Wasting resources to make aircraft ready for the scrap yard just because is also mind boggling.

Whitley, once with Merlins, was the bomb-truck with the biggest payload that RAF had before 4-engined bombers entered the service.

Almost forgotten: both Wellington and Hampden were proper types. Alas.
 
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Veritable river of fighters :)
Though, I'd probably have B-P making the Spitfires instead the Defiants. Perhaps the 'alt-Fulmar' should be even smaller and lighter than the historical one, so it is at least on par with Hurricane performance-wise.
In all due respect Archibald, and sorry to come from out of the blue, but I too can't support your Fairey Battle's and Fulmar's, let alone a figure like "Over 2100 Battles".
At the end of the day, even when built and delivered, their operational value was seen as limited, as to were their capacity to carry anything but small and light bombs. The fact that they were so much lumbering plane for both their engine, their bombload and in the case of the Battle, their use of three crewman, always made my skin crawl....Their lack of combat utility and there horrendous battle losses should have been obvious.
Perhaps the concentration of building and fielding the Bristol Blenheim's, alas undoubtedly more expensive, but a much more versatile two-engine design which could and would be adopted for more roles throughout it's career.

Regards
Pioneer
 
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The 'light bomber' niche was very popular in the 1920s and 1930s. That was the era where these bombers were flying basically as fast as then-current fighters (and there was a host of bombers that were faster than many fighters). Fighters being armed with just two MGs were not that scary, too.

Problem was that fighters were started being armed with one or two cannons, or with multiple MGs, or with HMGs. Having just one or two LMGs on a bomber returning the fire against a smaller, faster and nimbler aircraft skews the math against the light bombers; many of them having no means to defend against frontal attacks, or from the attacks from the lower hemisphere.

Then we have the task the light bombers are supposed to do. A short-range light bomber will be carrying small fuel quantity, and it can be small and thus can have better speed. RAF favored a lot the short field capacity, that means that wing needed to be big. Both Battle and Blenheim were attempts to get a long-range bomber on the cheap and with modest field requirement, meaning that the size was big, and speed was bad. Claimed 285 mph speed for the Blenheim was not achieved even when Cotton applied the means of streamlining (removal of turret, 'thimble' nose, shortened wingtips, puttied joints etc.); the bomber Blenheim I was lucky if it touched 270 mph.

Both the British and French neglected the development and production of both light and heavy AA guns, while Germany introduced the new types en masse - meaning that a slow bomber easily becomes a dead bomber.
Having no doctrine of fighter escort meant that any decent fighter force will have a field day when the light bombers are encountered.

tl;dr - Unless RAF introduces fighter escort on a large scale, their daylight bombers will fare badly against the competent opponent. A light bomber should be really fast, that in case of RAF means that Merlin is the engine of choice, not a radial. So basically make the proto-Mosquito ASAP.
 
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The real missed opportunity was the Henley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Henley When the RAF tried to help bombing that Sedan bridgehead, I'd rather have flown a Henley dive bomber than a Battle (of which 71 were lost ? from memory).

Unfortunately Hawker was already busy with the Hurricane.

Is there a viable scenario where Hawker dumps the Henley to somebody else (Gloster ? d'oh, silly me !), and then a Henley production run taps into the Battle & Defiant thousands of Merlins ?
 
The real missed opportunity was the Henley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Henley When the RAF tried to help bombing that Sedan bridgehead, I'd rather have flown a Henley dive bomber than a Battle (of which 71 were lost ? from memory).
Henley was faster than the Battle by some 40 mph, at least by the 'book' figures. That is a major advantage, leaving less time for the intercepts to happen, and reducing the time the A/C will be in the AA kill zone. Faster target is a worse target from the AA gunner's point of view. Henley was smaller, so again it might've been a tougher target to hit.

OTOH, Henley is still some 50-60 mph slower than the Emil.

Is there a viable scenario where Hawker dumps the Henley to somebody else (Gloster ? d'oh, silly me !), and then a Henley production run taps into the Battle & Defiant thousands of Merlins ?

Have Austin make Henleys instead of the Battles? Historically, Gloster produced 200 Henleys.

As for what to make instead of Defiant, I'd suggest for the n-th time to make the Spitfires at BP instead.
 
Is there a viable scenario where Hawker dumps the Henley to somebody else (Gloster ? d'oh, silly me !), and then a Henley production run taps into the Battle & Defiant thousands of Merlins ?
I unfortunately don’t have Colin Sinnot’s book where fleshes out his arguments in more detail but I have read his thesis online. And IIRC there is what seems to me to be a possibility to have the Henley (or something close) replace the Battle entirely.

In the 20’s the RAF had two kinds of bombers. Light types that were intended to use their speed to get in and out of French airspace (in the 20’s and 30’s the RAF’s abilities were measured against a conflict with France) quickly, minimizing the amount of time the AdA would have to intercept them. They were thus lightly armed and as light and fast as possible. The other type were heavier and slower but better armed. They would depend on their armament for defence and fly at night to avoid most of the strongest fighter defence. Somewhat paralleling the later Heavy bomber/Mosquito split.

In the late 20’s the fast light type was represented by the Hawker Hart while the heavy night bomber was the BP Sidestrand. The Hart was obviously the better of the two in almost every way. And they could both carry about the same bomb load!

The CAS of the day thought that this may prove that single engine bombers were just inevitably superior to twin engine types. He conceded, however, that it was an unfair contest as the Sidestrand was older and more obsolete than the Hart. He thus thought to use the specs intended to replace the two aircraft as a comparative test to settle the issue.

The Sidestrand was up for replacement first, and the advancements in technology allowed this spec to call for a doubled bomb load of 1000 lbs. I can’t remember exactly which aircraft ending up coming out of this spec but it might have been the Wellesley? In any case, when it came time to replace the Hart, the bomb load was also doubled so that the two specs could be compared directly. Despite the objections of Fairey and most likely others involved, both this spec and the single engine requirements were held to. And the result was the Battle. This came just in time to be locked in as the aircraft built by the early shadow factory program and was built in large numbers.

However, part way through the process, perhaps due to the objections of Fairey and others, it was realized that the enlarged aircraft was going to be more of a single engined medium bomber than a Hart replacement. Thus a second spec was issued reducing the bomb load back to 500 lbs and allowing for better performance. The winner of this one was the Henley with the Fairey P.4/34 being the runner up. However, by that time the official competitor had finally switched to Germany, and light bombers were considered to have neither the range nor the bomb load for the task at hand. Thus interest in the Henley died and those that were purchased were generally used for target towing.

So, if you can convince the CAS and/or the specifications writers for the OTL Battle spec that the increase in bomb load will be detrimental and that a real Hart replacement is needed first (or perhaps only) then what you will probably get is an earlier Henley and Fairey P.4/34. Possibly with slightly earlier engines. The winner will likely still be chosen to be built to train up new workers in the shadow factories and be built in numbers. It would then be punted off into the Army Cooperation squadrons as the RAF interest turns to longer range interdiction and strategic bombing. While the Battle (if it exists at all) will be used in other roles as the niche for light bombers is eliminated.

And, voila! You have pilots facing AA and enemy controlled skies in Henley’s instead of Battles! They will still be lost in large numbers and probably not achieve the results asked for, but a few more of them may survive.
 
Quite an interesting story, which explains how the Battle happened in the first place.


Okay, that one was unexpected but quite logical. So it was a) a miniature Battle b) the Henley competitor and c) the Fulmar father. An interesting piece of british aviation history !

Down the rabbit hole... seems Denmark wanted twelve P4/34 for naval strike.
 
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Link to Post 278.
You're effectively making the OTL Spec. P.4/34 the TTL Spec. P.27/32. Fair enough.

Although, it's more likely that the Fairey P.4/34 (rather than the Hawker Henley) would have been built instead of the Battle.

It's more logical for Fairey's Stockport factory to build 1,155 Fairey P.4/34s instead of 1,155 Fairey Battles (first flight 14.04.37 and delivered from May 1937 to November 1940) than it is for the factory to build 1,155 Hawker Henleys instead of 1,155 Battles. That's after acknowledging that production of the Henley was subcontracted to Gloster IOTL.

Although, if Austin had built 1,029 Henleys instead of 1,029 Battles (of 1,263 ordered, first flight 22.07.38 and delivered from October 1938 to October 1940) it would have been easier to re-tool to build Hurricanes. IOTL the first Austin-built Hurricane flew on 08.10.40 and the 300 built (out of 400 ordered) were delivered between February 1941 and October 1942.

Incidentally, 446 of the Austin-built Battles were completed as target-tugs and so were the 200 Henleys that were built IOTL.

As a bonus the FAA may have got the Fairey Fulmar sooner as it was based on the Fairey P.4/34. That's because development of the P.4/34 began sooner in your timeline and it might be possible to make on the (ITTL) existing P.4/34 production line.

To get the best of both worlds Austin could built Henley's instead of the Battle and Fairey, Stockport could build Fairey P.4/34s instead of the Battle. The Air Ministry had a habit of ordering into production two aircraft designed to meet the same specification. E.g. the Hampden & Wellington, which were designed to meet Spec. B.9/32 and the Halifax % Manchester, that were designed to meet Spec. P.13/36.
 

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