Alternative fighter for Argentine AF & Navy during Falklands war.

[Justo Miranda]

I guess you are probably from Spain.

Spain kept its colonies safe fron 1492 to 1821, why?
View attachment 754710


Spain was a military power, in the XV century Spain made its weapons, first lesson of war; a war should not be fought on bets, but on facts, Argentina in the 1950s developed fighters by 1980 only trainer jet aircraft.
View attachment 754709
They made missiles and very likely could have made a nuke.
View attachment 754708

View attachment 754713
In 1982, they were betrayed by a weak Spain (it would not had happened in 1784), a weak Italy, and an Anglosaxon rival who preferred its mother nation.

Spain betrayed Argentina.

Well we as Latin Americans once were part of Spain.
View attachment 754711
So from the beginning the bet was wrong.

Argentina was no match to England militarily speaking.
Spain an Italy were second rate powers in Europe (it is sad, but it is the truth even some of my ancestors were from Spain and Italy). So in my opinion Galtieri made a wrong move, the British wanted peace and probably they would have given up the Malvinas (Falklands) without war.

Did the USA pay?

Yes now Brazil is part of BRICS and is making nuclear subs, as the result of the sinking of Belgrano and betrayal of the USA.
View attachment 754712
MERCOSUR was a direct result of the war, Brazil and Argentina decided the USA was not an ally.
But thankfully we continue with a peaceful stand, will the Falklands become part of Argentina? I do not know, but the USA paid that war with Brazil becoming de facto the South American leader and the Free Trade of the Americas sponsored by the USA never happened and Now Mercosur made a free trade agreement with the EU.

Spain kept its colonies safe from 1492 to 1821, why?

They were not "our" colonies but of the Genoese bankers and high Austrian religious officials who had lent money to the inept Spanish kings (poisonously advised by their confessors) for their stupid European wars. All the gold in America ended up in the hands of European lenders and we Spaniards only collaborated with the wood of our forests and the blood of our young people in an international business that ruined us.

Why were our rulers so stupid? Because their most intelligent and gifted descendants died of mysterious diseases... Do you remember the saga of I Caludio? Usual procedure.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

“Spain was a military power”

If that were true, King Philip II's Armada would have conquered England, the Inquisition would have prevented the development of the steam engine and the construction of the British empire. At present, the Western world would be controlled by religious police, the few who knew how to read and write would do so by lighting themselves with candles and the universal diplomatic language would be Latin. California would be a desert with some missions located in the few Indian population centers and none of this would be the fault of the Spanish people who have suffered historic purges in search of their freedom, without ever achieving it.

No empire is perfect, in 2025 Spain is not an empire not a world power, however by land the Spanish empire was huge, Blas de Lezo had a great Victory, Francis Drake was beaten between Cuba and Mexico


Admiral Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta (3 February 1689 – 7 September 1741) was a Spanish navy officer best remembered for the Battle of Cartagena de Indias (1741), where Spanish imperial forces under his command decisively defeated a large British invasion fleet under Admiral Edward Vernon.

20 DE ABRIL DE 1741La hazaña de Blas de Lezo en Cartagena de Indias - Acami

20 DE ABRIL DE 1741La hazaña de Blas de Lezo en Cartagena de Indias El día 20 de abril de 1741 el guipuzcoano Blas de Lezo frustraba, de manera definitiva, el ataque de la flota británica a Cartagena de Indias, en la actual Colombia. Fue ésta una de las grandes victorias militares españolas de...

www.acami.es

The outstanding incident of this voyage was its disastrous ending. After profitable (though illegal) trade in the Spanish American ports, and the commission of sundry acts of piracy, the little English squadron put into the harbor of San Juan de Ulúa, Mexico, to obtain supplies and to repair their ships. While they were there, the annual Spanish flotilla of thirteen great ships sailed into the harbor, with the new Viceroy of Mexico, Don Martín Enríquez, on board. After a few days of negotiations, a pact was concluded by which the English were allowed to repair their ships and purchase ashore the supplies they needed, while the Spanish ships would anchor near them. But Don Martín treacherously ordered the pact to be broken, and a battle ensued. Only two small ships, the Minion , with Hawkins, and the Judith, with Drake, made their escape. The other ships, almost all the gains of the voyage, and 500 men were lost. The two ships were overburdened, and more men had to be abandoned on the Texas coast, only a few of whom ever reached England again.

The Unfortunate Voyage: San Juan de Ulúa 1567-1569 | Sir Francis Drake: A Pictorial Biography by Hans P. Kraus | Articles and Essays | Sir Francis Drake (Kraus Collection) | Digital Collections | Library of Congress

Drake's first real step on the stage of history was his voyage to America under the command of his kinsman, John Hawkins. The enterprise began on October 2, 1567, when a fleet of six ships set sail from Plymouth. Only two of these ships were to return home, one commanded by Drake, in January...

www.loc.gov

On July 5, 1807, more than 30,000 British and 200 ships launched a massive attack on Buenos Aires along fourteen parallel streets: it was their plan to conquer America. The people of Buenos Aires defeated them in a lightning-fast and incredible way. That is why Spanish is still spoken in the Southern Cone today.

La aplastante y olvidada victoria de España sobre Inglaterra que decidió el futuro de Argentina

El 5 de julio de 1807, más de 30.000 británicos y 200 barcos lanzaron un ataque masivo, por catorce calles paralelas, contra Buenos Aires: era su plan para conquistar América. Los bonaerenses los vencieron de un modo fulminante e inverosímil. Es por eso que a día de hoy se habla español en el...

www.abc.es

this a good example why the Malvinas/Falkands battles did not go as in the past.

The difference was in the previous wars Spain was well armed but in 1982 Argentina did not produce their own weapons to the level to beat England




In the early 1940s Argentina was more or less as capable to have beaten England their air force built a few good examples of nice aircraft, but by 1982, there was no chance

El “Mosquito Gaucho”, El I Ae- 24 “CALQUÍN”

Historia del «Mosquito Gaucho».

prensaohf.com

 

[Justo Miranda]

No empire is perfect, in 2025 Spain is not an empire not a world power, however by land the Spanish empire was huge, Blas de Lezo had a great Victory, Francis Drake was beaten between Cuba and Mexico

View attachment 754733
Admiral Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta (3 February 1689 – 7 September 1741) was a Spanish navy officer best remembered for the Battle of Cartagena de Indias (1741), where Spanish imperial forces under his command decisively defeated a large British invasion fleet under Admiral Edward Vernon.

20 DE ABRIL DE 1741La hazaña de Blas de Lezo en Cartagena de Indias - Acami

20 DE ABRIL DE 1741La hazaña de Blas de Lezo en Cartagena de Indias El día 20 de abril de 1741 el guipuzcoano Blas de Lezo frustraba, de manera definitiva, el ataque de la flota británica a Cartagena de Indias, en la actual Colombia. Fue ésta una de las grandes victorias militares españolas de...

www.acami.es

The outstanding incident of this voyage was its disastrous ending. After profitable (though illegal) trade in the Spanish American ports, and the commission of sundry acts of piracy, the little English squadron put into the harbor of San Juan de Ulúa, Mexico, to obtain supplies and to repair their ships. While they were there, the annual Spanish flotilla of thirteen great ships sailed into the harbor, with the new Viceroy of Mexico, Don Martín Enríquez, on board. After a few days of negotiations, a pact was concluded by which the English were allowed to repair their ships and purchase ashore the supplies they needed, while the Spanish ships would anchor near them. But Don Martín treacherously ordered the pact to be broken, and a battle ensued. Only two small ships, the Minion , with Hawkins, and the Judith, with Drake, made their escape. The other ships, almost all the gains of the voyage, and 500 men were lost. The two ships were overburdened, and more men had to be abandoned on the Texas coast, only a few of whom ever reached England again.
View attachment 754734

The Unfortunate Voyage: San Juan de Ulúa 1567-1569 | Sir Francis Drake: A Pictorial Biography by Hans P. Kraus | Articles and Essays | Sir Francis Drake (Kraus Collection) | Digital Collections | Library of Congress

Drake's first real step on the stage of history was his voyage to America under the command of his kinsman, John Hawkins. The enterprise began on October 2, 1567, when a fleet of six ships set sail from Plymouth. Only two of these ships were to return home, one commanded by Drake, in January...

www.loc.gov

On July 5, 1807, more than 30,000 British and 200 ships launched a massive attack on Buenos Aires along fourteen parallel streets: it was their plan to conquer America. The people of Buenos Aires defeated them in a lightning-fast and incredible way. That is why Spanish is still spoken in the Southern Cone today.

La aplastante y olvidada victoria de España sobre Inglaterra que decidió el futuro de Argentina

El 5 de julio de 1807, más de 30.000 británicos y 200 barcos lanzaron un ataque masivo, por catorce calles paralelas, contra Buenos Aires: era su plan para conquistar América. Los bonaerenses los vencieron de un modo fulminante e inverosímil. Es por eso que a día de hoy se habla español en el...

www.abc.es

this a good example why the Malvinas/Falkands battles did not go as in the past.

The difference was in the previous wars Spain was well armed but in 1982 Argentina did not produce their own weapons to the level to beat England


View attachment 754735

In the early 1940s Argentina was more or less as capable to have beat England their air force built a few good examples of nice aircraft, but by 1982, there was no chance

El “Mosquito Gaucho”, El I Ae- 24 “CALQUÍN”

Historia del «Mosquito Gaucho».

prensaohf.com

I thank you for your opinions and I suppose some of the Spaniards will agree with your kind words, but isolated acts of courage, often accompanied by luck with favorable winds, supplies and epidemics do not constitute an empire. An empire means organization, technical development and economic coherence.

How many roads, bridges, ports and aqueducts did the Romans build in Spain?

How many do we build in America?

That is the imperial measure, there is no other.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

Spain kept its colonies safe from 1492 to 1821, why?

They were not "our" colonies but of the Genoese bankers and high Austrian religious officials who had lent money to the inept Spanish kings (poisonously advised by their confessors) for their stupid European wars. All the gold in America ended up in the hands of European lenders and we Spaniards only collaborated with the wood of our forests and the blood of our young people in an international business that ruined us.

Why were our rulers so stupid? Because their most intelligent and gifted descendants died of mysterious diseases... Do you remember the saga of I Caludio? Usual procedure.

well you are mentioning what was the reason of the Empire to fall, however, as a latin American, I have a bit different view because from 1592 to 1821 Spain kept its empire as one of the largest, from Argentina to Alaska Spain Ruled and up to 1821 the British could not compare, they were beaten.


By 1821 when the empire fell, all the previou colonies fought and in 1982 Chile a sister nation of Argentina betrayed Argentina, Peru was fighting Chile so it supported Argentina, Brazil just looked.



Now Argentian had examples of good aircraft industry



why Argentina lost?

Simple when the colonies became independent countries there was not a common military, this was used by England bribing Chile in 1982.


I prefer peace because like I said we are not nuclear targets and the USA is the new empire but also a nuclear target. better to be free of nukes than being a target.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

I thank you for your opinions and I suppose some of the Spaniards will agree with your kind words, but isolated acts of courage, often accompanied by luck with favorable winds, supplies and epidemics do not constitute an empire. An empire means organization, technical development and economic coherence.

How many roads, bridges, ports and aqueducts did the Romans build in Spain?

How many do we build in America?

That is the imperial measure, there is no other.

The Spanish empire was great, just go to any Latin american city you have Spanish culture, as any Empire well Spain fell, but it was organization in fact Spain contrary to what many believe freed the Indians, and considered them humans and I am the result of that a Mestizo, I was not colonized since I have Spanish ancestors nor I was a colonizer since I have Aztec blood but undoubtedly our weakness has help us to do not be targets of nukes.


Spanish aqueduct (Queretaro Mexico)

Spanish architecture Colombia
The empire was not perfect, nor a paradise but we are what we are, one of my great grand parents came from Bilbao in a ship that went to south America went to the magallanes straight, landed in Peru and later went to Mexico, History is in our blood, we do not need to repeat the mistakes of the past and peace is better, I have good british friends.

But in 1982, our mistakes as a civilization (the Spanish civilization) were exposed.

But technology we can make



Santos Dumont father of aviation according to brazilians




Salinas Tank, first Tank built in the Americas built in Mexico.



I.Ae. 30 Ñancú an aircraft built and designed in Argentina, perhaps if the war was fought in the 1940s Argentina would had prevailed, but this might had made Argentina an Axis nation

Contrary to the past, we are not making our weapons but in one side is good we have peace.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

View attachment 754720

That is a Mirage III from Brazil. i think that they homologated the Phyton far away of 1982

 

[H_K]

The harrier in 1982 was over estimated, the A-4 was more or less equivalent and the Mirage III too, but the lack of a good AAM made the victory for the Harriers.

I would disagree as the Magic was actually well suited for the task of shooting down Harriers… with a better seeker than the AIM-9J and better maneuverability than the AIM-9L, so well suited to air combat where most shots would be taken from the rear quadrant anyway.

Argentina’s problem was low missile stocks (only 22 Magics), so so pilot training, and fuel constraints operating at extreme range which severely constrained pilots’ tactical options (e.g. inability to drop large drop tanks or use much afterburner).

 

[Scott Kenny]

In my view, rushing the Falklands invasion plan, placing barely trained recruits in harm's way, foregoing the Etendards, etcetera, should have been recognised as stupidly reckless there and then. The one reason I can think of why the generals were in such a hurry was because they felt the tide in Argentina was turning against them.
'Let's go for it now, what could possibly go wrong?'

That's certainly how my International Relations class covered it.

 

[uk 75]

As so often with our Alt history threads the one here is something of a pet theme so the deployment of Mig21s armed somehow with better AAMs than the Sea Harriers' Aim9L to Port Stanley might be assumed to give Argentina a better chance of defeating the Task Force.
Both sides of the case have now been put so as we now have lots of politics here (guilty on this one) I suggest we all agree to disagree.

 

[Wotan]

“Spain was a military power”

If that were true, King Philip II's Armada would have conquered England, the Inquisition would have prevented the development of the steam engine and the construction of the British empire. At present, the Western world would be controlled by religious police, the few who knew how to read and write would do so by lighting themselves with candles and the universal diplomatic language would be Latin. California would be a desert with some missions located in the few Indian population centers and none of this would be the fault of the Spanish people who have suffered historic purges in search of their freedom, without ever achieving it.

You forget one thing...
At the time the Spaine was ruled kings fromt the House of Habsburgs.

In the Americas you would end having more of these

Maximilian I of Mexico - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Since Maximilian was a descendant of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Spain when the Spaniards conquered the Aztecs (1519–21) and first brought Mexico into the Spanish Empire, a status it held until the Mexican independence in 1821, Maximilian seemed a perfect candidate for the conservatives' plans for monarchy in Mexico.[3]"

And spanish and germans will be spoken instead of english ib the Americas. And everybody would drive german cars imported from the Holy Roman Empire...

 

[carvalho2008]

why Argentina lost?

Simple when the colonies became independent countries there was not a common military, this was used by England bribing Chile in 1982.


I prefer peace because like I said we are not nuclear targets and the USA is the new empire but also a nuclear target. better to be free of nukes than being a target.

Chile did not betray Argentina.

they were opponents and almost went to war 4 years earlier.

The Beagle Channel crisis was a conflict between Argentina and Chile that almost led to war in 1978. The dispute involved the possession of islands and the maritime border between the two countries, in the Beagle Strait, which separates Tierra del Fuego. from other islands.

In 1977, an arbitration award from the International Court considered the Chilean islands, which displeased Argentina.
The most dramatic moment of the conflict occurred between December 12 and 22, 1978, when Argentine troops advanced towards the border with Chile. Pope John Paul II's intervention prevented a war,

 

[F-14ATomcat]

Chile did not betray Argentina.

they were opponents and almost went to war 4 years earlier.

The Beagle Channel crisis was a conflict between Argentina and Chile that almost led to war in 1978. The dispute involved the possession of islands and the maritime border between the two countries, in the Beagle Strait, which separates Tierra del Fuego. from other islands.

In 1977, an arbitration award from the International Court considered the Chilean islands, which displeased Argentina.
The most dramatic moment of the conflict occurred between December 12 and 22, 1978, when Argentine troops advanced towards the border with Chile. Pope John Paul II's intervention prevented a war,

I am talking in the context of civilization, during the colonial times, each colony, well vice royalty would had considered helping each other, after the independence of the vice royalties each country fought sibling nations as feudal states did after the fall of Rome.


Chile is basically Argentina, but current nation creation has made artificial nationalism, Mercosur or Patria grande will erase it, we are much more homogeneous than Europe, we can create a united South America or a United Latin America, under that optic Chile betrayed Argentina but Peru did not.

But of course that is an opinion of those who support the Patria Grande concept.



Falklands War. Peru's secret operation to deliver 10 fighter planes
An officer who participated in the operation reveals how the Mirages flew in radio silence and with the Argentine cockade freshly painted to Jujuy. The Peruvian pilots volunteered to fight in the South Atlantic.

Guerra de las Malvinas. El operativo secreto del Perú para entregar 10 aviones de combate

Un oficial que participó de la operación revela cómo los Mirage volaron en silencio de radio y con la escarapela argentina recién pintada hasta Jujuy. Los pilotos peruanos se ofrecieron como voluntarios para combatir en el Atlántico Sur.

www.clarin.com

 

[carvalho2008]

"By 1821 when the empire fell, all the previou colonies fought and in 1982 Chile a sister nation of Argentina betrayed Argentina, Peru was fighting Chile so it supported Argentina, Brazil just looked."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

After a month of conflict, Argentine forces began to suffer their first losses, while the British became increasingly closer to recovering the archipelago. Prohibited from purchasing weapons, due to the international embargo imposed by NATO, Argentina turned to other sources to acquire more weapons and in the meantime also managed to rent two P-95s and 11 Xavantes jets (MB-326) from the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) .

England complains

The British complained about the “rental” of the planes and called the Brazilian ambassador in London, Roberto Campos, to explain. Diplomatic, Campos reaffirmed Brazil's position of neutrality during the conflict and offered to lend two P-95s and 11 Xavantes to the British, if they were also requested. (LOL)

English publications always comment on the subject with suspicion. One of the most controversial points is that the Bandeirulhas used in the Malvinas were operated by FAB crew, already accustomed to the plane and its surveillance equipment. The British questioned that there would not be enough time to train new Argentine crews to fly the Embraer plane with the conflict in full swing.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

You forget one thing...
At the time the Spaine was ruled kings fromt the House of Habsburgs.

In the Americas you would end having more of these

Maximilian I of Mexico - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And spanish and germans will be spoken instead of english. And everybody would drive german cars imported from the Holy Roman Empire...

cool, Iturbide, the father of Mexico, wanted Mexico to be a catholic empire, in fact still connected to the crown of Spain in the same way Australia is independent but part of the commonwealth, but the Catholics lost.

In radio silence, with the Argentine cockade freshly painted, with just enough fuel and flying at 33,000 feet, ten Peruvian Mirage fighter planes and one Hercules arrived secretly on June 6, 1982 in Jujuy to reinforce the Argentine Air Force.

At that point in the Malvinas War, the Argentine Air Force had practically run out of fighters. The Peruvian aircraft had taken off from the Peruvian Air Force base in La Joya. They had extra fuel tanks attached to them so they could fly for more than three hours without asking anyone for permission by radio to maintain the reserve of the operation.

“The Peruvians got out of their planes and we hugged each other,” retired commodore and Malvinas hero Luis Puga told Clarín, who had traveled secretly to San Salvador de Jujuy to receive them.


The Peruvians had flown more than 1,500 kilometers without any kind of communication so as not to be picked up by the Chilean radars located in Antofagasta and Iquique, which passed intelligence information to Great Britain.

The Argentines, led by Puga - who 13 days earlier had ejected from his M 5 Dagger after being hit by an American Sidewinder missile launched by a British Sea Harrier plane in the battle of San Carlos - invited the Peruvians to lunch. They wanted the Mirages to be ready soon to go into combat.

Puga had returned a few days earlier from Malvinas and given a talk in the Cóndor building about the situation of the air war. Upon leaving, they gave him a secret order in an envelope that only indicated that that night he should take an Austral plane bound for Jujuy.

At the Jujuy airport, an Army colonel told him that they were "waiting for Peruvian planes." Nothing more.

A few hours later, they landed one by one, late. Puga was excited because one of the Peruvian Mirages had the registration number of the plane in which he had crashed in the South Atlantic to keep the Peruvian aid secret.

The Argentine Air Force had requested eleven Daggers and five of their pilots in recent days. The Daggers are the Israeli version of the French Mirages.

However, a non-commissioned officer mechanic "reported to me that the fuel the Peruvians used was different from ours" and the operation was delayed until the same fuel was obtained, Puga recalled.

The Mirages arrived one after the other in different squads.

At lunch, Peruvian lieutenant Gonzalo Tueros and his colleagues volunteered to go fight in the Malvinas without Peruvian uniforms.

“We explained to him that if they were discovered, Great Britain would consider Peru its enemy and, in addition, it would be sanctioned for violating the arms embargo against Argentina,” Puga recalled to Clarín. Only when the head of the Peruvian Air Force refused was that possibility ruled out.

An internal document from the Argentine Air Force to which Clarín had access specifies that the Peruvian pilots who participated in the secret operation were Pedro Seabra Pinedo, Augusto Mengoni Vicente, César Gallo Lale, Gonzalo Tueros Mannareli, Milenko Vojvodic Vargas, Ramiro Lanao Márquez, Rubén Mimbela Velarde, Pedro Avila y Tello, Mario Núñez Del Arco and Marco Carranza Correa.

This newspaper submitted a request for access to public information to the Air Force, which replied that “there is no official record” of the operation due to its secret nature.

However, a report by specialist Jorge Nuñez Padín and others reveals that the purchase had been agreed with Peru "on December 14, 1981 for 55 million dollars." The purchase was to be made at the end of 1982, but Peru, taking serious risks, brought forward the delivery.

Although the then head of the UN, Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, tried to mediate between the dictator Leopoldo Galtieri and the British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, the president of Peru Fernando Belaúnde Terry decided to take risks and deliver them earlier within the framework of this secret operation.

From Jujuy, where they had arrived on June 6, 1982 to refuel, the Mirages had to continue flying until they reached the Air Force base in Tandil.

But the Peruvian Hercules also had to go to the Tandil base. The Hercules carried spare parts and a dozen AS-30 missiles. He was given the license plate of a civil Aeroperú aircraft for his radio communications.

“So, it was decided to simulate an emergency landing request at the Ezeiza airport tower without asking for an alternative airport,” recalled Commodore Jorge Reta interviewed by Clarín. They gave it to him and so no suspicions were raised.

On June 6, the Peruvian pilots and technicians (35 in total) hugged the Argentines and returned to their country on the Hercules immediately so as not to arouse suspicion. They were there for no less than half an hour.

The next day in Tandil, training began for the Argentine pilots and putting them in

The Peruvian Mirage was ready to send the planes as soon as possible to the San Julián base in Santa Cruz. They were quickly deployed in Patagonia.

But the surrender was on June 14 and the Peruvian Mirages did not go into combat, although they reinforced air security in Patagonia.

Despite this gesture by Peru, in 1995 during the government of former President Carlos Menem, 5,000 FAL rifles and 75 tons of ammunition were triangulated to Ecuador during the war for the Cordillera del Cóndor.

Only in 2019, the ambassador of Juntos por el Cambio in Peru, Jorge Yoma, decorated the Peruvian pilots who brought the Mirages to heal that wound.

Guerra de las Malvinas. El operativo secreto del Perú para entregar 10 aviones de combate

Un oficial que participó de la operación revela cómo los Mirage volaron en silencio de radio y con la escarapela argentina recién pintada hasta Jujuy. Los pilotos peruanos se ofrecieron como voluntarios para combatir en el Atlántico Sur.

www.clarin.com

Aviación Peruana tuvo participación decisiva en ataque a naves inglesas en las Malvinas

VICTOR ALVARADO La participación de la aviación peruana en la guerra de las Malvinas, ha sido reconocida por Argentina como decisiva y determinante y aun cuando oficialmente se insiste en señalar q…

luizcore.wordpress.com

 

[F-14ATomcat]

"By 1821 when the empire fell, all the previou colonies fought and in 1982 Chile a sister nation of Argentina betrayed Argentina, Peru was fighting Chile so it supported Argentina, Brazil just looked."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

After a month of conflict, Argentine forces began to suffer their first losses, while the British became increasingly closer to recovering the archipelago. Prohibited from purchasing weapons, due to the international embargo imposed by NATO, Argentina turned to other sources to acquire more weapons and in the meantime also managed to rent two P-95s and 11 Xavantes jets (MB-326) from the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) .

England complains

The British complained about the “rental” of the planes and called the Brazilian ambassador in London, Roberto Campos, to explain. Diplomatic, Campos reaffirmed Brazil's position of neutrality during the conflict and offered to lend two P-95s and 11 Xavantes to the British, if they were also requested. (LOL)

English publications always comment on the subject with suspicion. One of the most controversial points is that the Bandeirulhas used in the Malvinas were operated by FAB crew, already accustomed to the plane and its surveillance equipment. The British questioned that there would not be enough time to train new Argentine crews to fly the Embraer plane with the conflict in full swing.

thanks i did not know that thanks

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Argentina’s problem was low missile stocks (only 22 Magics), so so pilot training, and fuel constraints operating at extreme range which severely constrained pilots’ tactical options (e.g. inability to drop large drop tanks or use much afterburner).

Frist a I didnt known the numbers of the M550.
You give in the point (fuel constraints for the M-III and Dagger)

 

[Scott Kenny]

As so often with our Alt history threads the one here is something of a pet theme so the deployment of Mig21s armed somehow with better AAMs than the Sea Harriers' Aim9L to Port Stanley might be assumed to give Argentina a better chance of defeating the Task Force.
Both sides of the case have now been put so as we now have lots of politics here (guilty on this one) I suggest we all agree to disagree.

Doesn't need to be better than an AIM9L (not sure there was a better IR AAM in the world at the time, R-73s weren't available till 1984).

Just needs to have fighter cover over the attackers going in with Exocets and iron bombs!

 

[Wotan]

I think was not going to be easy but the Python 3 proved its self in 1982 over Lebanon, If the A-4s would had some AAM weapon and the Mirage III and Nesher Python 3s probably the Harriers would not have been as successful and Argentina could had a chance to beat England to the level of negotiating a peace deal.

The harrier in 1982 was over estimated, the A-4 was more or less equivalent and the Mirage III too, but the lack of a good AAM made the victory for the Harriers.

Any way is better south America maybe lost that war, since South America is not a nuclear target.

Python-3 is equivalent to AIM-9L or better.

Python-3

The Python-3 air-to-air missile (AAM) is allegedly a version of the US-made AIM-9L Sidewinder AAM. PYTHON-3 is a third-generation short to medium range air-to-air missile adapted to the F-15, F-16, all types of Mirage, F-5, F-4 and Kfir C-2 and C-7 aircraft.

www.globalsecurity.org

Israel gave the missile to China, so no reason not to sell it to Argentina, at least before the conflict.

Python 3

 

[carvalho2008]

Doesn't need to be better than an AIM9L (not sure there was a better IR AAM in the world at the time, R-73s weren't available till 1984).

Just needs to have fighter cover over the attackers going in with Exocets and iron bombs!

The Argentine planes were already passing by the Harriers, of which there were few...

Most of the planes shot down by Harriers were shot down after having already carried out attacks on ships, or in retreat after a mission or air-to-air combat...

in other words, this does not change the result with any significant change... this would not result in more planes arriving or breaking through the CAPS. It was rare that CAPS would have canceled or aborted an Argentine air attack...

Therefore, the focus must be on a plane that can increase the number of attacks on ships, a plane that increase by itself, an aggregate number of attacks in addition to those already carried out by continental aviation. A plane that keeps the fleet distant and thus further depreciates the harrier's range, which was already poor, even during CAPS flight time.

 

[carvalho2008]

Or

this would be enough, unlike the Pucarás

 

[_Del_]

The British complained about the “rental” of the planes and called the Brazilian ambassador in London, Roberto Campos, to explain. Diplomatic, Campos reaffirmed Brazil's position of neutrality during the conflict and offered to lend two P-95s and 11 Xavantes to the British, if they were also requested.

Had not heard this particular version of events. haha

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[Wotan]

The Argentine planes were already passing by the Harriers, of which there were few...

Most of the planes shot down by Harriers were shot down after having already carried out attacks on ships, or in retreat after a mission or air-to-air combat...

in other words, this does not change the result with any significant change... this would not result in more planes arriving or breaking through the CAPS. It was rare that CAPS would have canceled or aborted an Argentine air attack...

Therefore, the focus must be on a plane that can increase the number of attacks on ships, a plane that increase by itself, an aggregate number of attacks in addition to those already carried out by continental aviation. A plane that keeps the fleet distant and thus further depreciates the harrier's range, which was already poor, even during CAPS flight time.

One thing to remark is that the Daggers and Skihawks performing strikes in the Falkland were not carying AA missiles, just the bombs and had only their cannons to defence themselves after performing the bombing run. Only the Mirages III carried AA missiles. Also they had to mantain the optimal speed for maximazing range in order to be able to return home, So the retreating aircrafts were practically defenceless.

A fleet of fighters operating from the Falklands would have be able to cover these aircrafts and to divert the attention of the Harriers toward them, than disengage at supersonic speed, using full afterburner and not carying about the full consumption. A Mig-21 dashes with 1.300km/h at low level, it would leave a Harrier behind.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Would the British attack have occurred if Kurt Tank had been able to develop in Argentina several projects equivalent to the Hindustan HF-24, HSS-73 and HF-73?

 

[carvalho2008]

The harrier was not the primary target

The primary targets were ships

Secondary targets were disembarked troops

Harriers were in the third priority category

 

[Rule of cool]

Indeed. It should have been relatively easy to add some matting at both runway ends and along the runway. The RAF immediately installed matting to enable Harrier ops after the islands were recaptured... presumably they also added fuel & munitions storage areas.

British engineers managed to patch up the runway and install a parallel runway with steel mats for Harriers etc within 10 days of surrender.

However to extend the runway to operate Phantoms and Hercules more safely and usefully was a surprisingly huge job. The British landed a pair of 45 ton rock crushers that provided 25,000 tons of crushed rock to lay the 4,700 tons of AM2 aluminium matting on to get to 6,100' plus hardstand etc. at a cost of 10m pounds. The airfield was closed for 2 weeks and multiple teams worked long hours to get it done.

I suspect that anything less than this huge effort will result in a far less effective result. I've read over the years that the Argentines planned or even prepared to extend the runway by 500' but my guess is even that might be tough in the circumstances.

 

[uk 75]

The problem with alt history scenarios is that you cannot just cherry pick the bits you like.
In those scenarios where Argentina has better led and more capable air and naval air forces the UK would react differently so that the 1982 conflict would not happen.
Instead as I have mentioned the UK either does a deal with Argentina or reminds the US and Europe that it is more important to NATO than Argentina.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

One thing to remark is that the Daggers and Skihawks performing strikes in the Falkland were not carying AA missiles, just the bombs and had only their cannons to defence themselves after performing the bombing run. Only the Mirages III carried AA missiles. Also they had to mantain the optimal speed for maximazing range in order to be able to return home, So the retreating aircrafts were practically defenceless.

A fleet of fighters operating from the Falklands would have be able to cover these aircrafts and to divert the attention of the Harriers toward them, than disengage at supersonic speed, using full afterburner and not carying about the full consumption. A Mig-21 dashes with 1.300km/h at low level, it would leave a Harrier behind.

well History is always the best way to understand this alternative case.

If France was an enemy of England no embargo would had happened.
If the Spanish would had have some loyalty, some ships and weapons would had being provided,

In colonial times that was the way to defeat the British, the colonies fought along side Spain and Spain was helped by other European powers.

In 1982 was other political situation it was obvious Argentina was outmatched, they never were able to compete.

The defeat was because Spain and Argentina were not nuclear powers.
Spain was not a world power by 1982, but England was.

The British colonies were united aka called USA, all the Spanish colonies were fighting among themselves

When England was defeated by Spain prior to 1821, the colonies always helped.

In 1982, that did not happen.



A-4s with AIM-9s missiles and Dagger, well Kfir with Python 3 missiles for air to air combat , the lack of them doomed the Argentine forces

In tactical weapons system: Air-to-air systems
…Israeli missile system, known as Python 3, is said to have shot down 50 Syrian aircraft in the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. When that system detects an airplane within range,

Python 3 | weapon | Britannica

Other articles where Python 3 is discussed: tactical weapons system: Air-to-air systems: …Israeli missile system, known as Python 3, is said to have shot down 50 Syrian aircraft in the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. When that system detects an airplane within range, it lights an indicator lamp and...

www.britannica.com

 

[Rule of cool]

The problem with alt history scenarios is that you cannot just cherry pick the bits you like.
In those scenarios where Argentina has better led and more capable air and naval air forces the UK would react differently so that the 1982 conflict would not happen.
Instead as I have mentioned the UK either does a deal with Argentina or reminds the US and Europe that it is more important to NATO than Argentina.

Yes, key decisions makers must act within their environment! While it's entirely plausible that Anaya tells his planning cell to plan for a strong garrison, or delays the invasion until May or July that the war still happens. However if Argentina becomes a competent, well-armed regional power then the war as it played out in 1982 becomes about as likely as Star Wars.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The harrier was not the primary target

The primary targets were ships

Secondary targets were disembarked troops

Harriers were in the third priority category

Again, these are fighters to keep the Harriers off the planes attacking the primary targets.

Shooting down a Harrier is a bonus.

Keeping the Harriers off the attack planes so they can make their attack runs is the goal.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-6smzlhoiQ

Hello friends, how are you? As always, I hope you are doing very well. In today's video I'm going to show you all the Harriers shot down during the Falklands War by the Argentine Armed Forces and all those that crashed according to the United Kingdom. We're going to see the shoot downs of the Royal Navy's Sea Harrier FRS.1s from squadrons 800, 801 and 809 as well as the shoot downs of the Harrier Gr.3s of the British Royal Air Force (RAF). We'll see what registration numbers the planes had, on what date, where, how they were shot down and what weapons system was used to destroy these iconic British planes during the armed conflict in 1982.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pMKQGAu2aA


First Lieutenant Carlos "Charly" Perona was the protagonist of the first clash between the Argentine military aviation and the Harrier fighter-bombers of the British invading fleet. He did so piloting a Mirage III on May 1, 1982, the day of the Argentine Air Force's baptism of fire in the Malvinas War. When facing two enemy aircraft, armed with the lethal Sidewinder L missile, which the US had given to Great Britain, the Argentine aviator was shot down, ejected and managed to survive. Perona, now a retired brigadier, recounts his odyssey to Nicolás Kasanzew, war correspondent in Malvinas, and also speaks of the mystery surrounding the disappearance of the fighter pilot Gustavo "Paco" García Cuerva.
At the end of 1975, Kasanzew flew a Mirage with the man who would be the head of the Squadron during the war, José Sánchez, then a captain. An officer who, on May 1, 1982, already with the rank of major, carried out a combat mission over Puerto Argentino, despite the fact that its air base was being bombed by the British.
Camera and editing, Sil Bonfietti. Postproduction, Niki Kasanzew.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcf7CfPypAE

Vice-Commodore Zini always regretted having flown in so few combat missions. "Thanks to you, many of us are alive and many English ships are at the bottom of the sea," replied the pilot Pablo Carballo, interpreting the feelings of his comrades. Nicolás Kasanzew, war correspondent in Malvinas, interviews the then Vice-Commodore Rubén Gustavo Zini, call sign "Trueno", Head of the 1st A4B Squadron, the unit that inflicted the most damage on the British fleet in 1982.
The head of the Falcons provides fascinating details of the missions carried out by his Squadron, describes the different personalities of its seasoned pilots, talks about his interaction with the General Staff in the war to optimize the use of the A4s in combat missions, and reveals the keys to his particular - and effective - form of leadership.
With the rank of second lieutenant, Zini was the standard bearer of the Fourth Air Brigade of Mendoza. In the years 1968-1969 he was a soloist of the Cóndor acrobatics squadron, composed of nine Morane-Saulnier aircraft. The head of that squadron was then Captain Wilson Pedrozo, future head of the Cóndor Air Base in Pradera del Ganso.
Zini was also head of the squadron that won the air-to-ground shooting championship with the Sabré F-86F aircraft in 1973. He was also an instructor at the CB2 Fighter School in Mendoza.
Born in 1942 in Corrientes, Zini retired with the rank of Brigadier Major, after having been an aeronautical attaché in Washington, and working on the acquisition program of A4-AR Fightinghawk fighter-bombers for the Argentine Air Force.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT4k4Jxfk4c

The Mirage V Dagger fighter-bombers played a key role in the Argentine airmen's offensive against the gigantic British fleet commanded by Admiral Sandy Woodward during the 1982 war. Nicolás Kasanzew, correspondent in the Malvinas, interviews the then lieutenant Mario "Sordo" Callejo, member of the "La Marinette" Airmobile Squadron. After the conflict, Callejo made a brilliant career in the Argentine Air Force, crowned with the position of Chief of Staff of that arm. The officer also presided over the "Air Battle Commission for Our Malvinas Islands", which in 2022 published the definitive version, in three volumes, of the history of the Air Force in the Malvinas.
Camera and editing, Sil Bonfietti. Postproduction, Niki Kasanzew.

 

[carvalho2008]

Again, these are fighters to keep the Harriers off the planes attacking the primary targets.

Shooting down a Harrier is a bonus.

Keeping the Harriers off the attack planes so they can make their attack runs is the goal.

My Dear Scott,

The premise for this is that the Harrier CAPs would have frustrated and aborted a significant number of Argentine air attacks on the British fleet.

Did this occur? No!

The overwhelming majority of the kills were after the Argentine mission already carried out against the ships

The Harriers' CAPS did not work to defend the ships.

They only showed efficiency in air combat when the planes had already discharged their bombs or in the initial days of air-to-air combat... in other words, this premise only aims to reduce Argentine air losses, but not to achieve its primary objective.

Many choices can be made for air-to-air combat, but remember that the Harriers did not rise to altitude and the mirages often did not descend, each trying to maintain its ideal flight envelope for combat....but the advantage In this regard was with the British....they were in air defense...and to hit ships...someone would have to lower the altitude...Argentineans needed a good missile...Magic never had optimistic results ...I don't know good results from it in other conflicts, I really don't know of records of attacks in which A-4 and Daggers had to jettison bombs and return because they were blocked, much less shot down on the way to the attack... anyway, you can reduce Argentine air losses, but the The fact is that the losses due to attrition of the British ships were already underway, at a speed higher than that of the Argentine aviation, what they needed was to hit more and explode the devices that constantly penetrated the decks of the ships... focusing on the ship was the primary objective...see...would taking down a few more Harriers resolve the issue? Wouldn't they be replaced by new shipments?

 

[Wotan]

The British Navy lost 7 ships to the argentinian air attacks: 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 landing ship, 1 landing craft, 1 container ship. More ships were damaged.

British Ships sunk and damaged - Falklands War 1982

13 bombs hit their targets but did not explode because of the fuses.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070327191626/http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=291&id=365372002

"The failure of the Argentines to set the fuses on their bombs to explode on impact might have spared six ships and saved the entire operation. At least six bombs smashed through British ships without detonating.
Lord Craig, the former marshal of the Royal Air Force, is said to have remarked: “Six better fuses and we would have lost.”"

Falklands War order of battle: Argentine air forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"

The above figures shown a total of 430 attack sorties from the mainland of which 18 aircraft were intercepted by the Sea Harriers and another 14 were shot down by anti aircraft defences.

"
So basically the Argentinian Air Force lost to the Harriers around one aircraft for each ship sunk or damaged. Hardly a very effective air cover. The presence in the Falklands of several fighter aircrafts equiped for air to air combat would have probably completly turned the tide in the favor of the strike aircrafts and thus prevented the landing of the british ground forces on the island.

 

[carvalho2008]

The British Navy lost 7 ships to the argentinian air attacks: 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 landing ship, 1 landing craft, 1 container ship. More ships were damaged.

British Ships sunk and damaged - Falklands War 1982

13 bombs hit their targets but did not explode because of the fuses.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070327191626/http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=291&id=365372002

"The failure of the Argentines to set the fuses on their bombs to explode on impact might have spared six ships and saved the entire operation. At least six bombs smashed through British ships without detonating.
Lord Craig, the former marshal of the Royal Air Force, is said to have remarked: “Six better fuses and we would have lost.”"

Falklands War order of battle: Argentine air forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"

The above figures shown a total of 430 attack sorties from the mainland of which 18 aircraft were intercepted by the Sea Harriers and another 14 were shot down by anti aircraft defences.

"
So basically the Argentinian Air Force lost to the Harriers around one aircraft for each ship sunk or damaged. Hardly a very effective air cover. The presence in the Falklands of several fighter aircrafts equiped for air to air combat would have probably completly turned the tide in the favor of the strike aircrafts and thus prevented the landing of the british ground forces on the island.

This graph only represents the losses of fleet ships.

Does not include merchant landing ships, RFA or Royal Navy.

The objective is to dominate the land area of conflict

Support and oxygen for disembarked troops comes from ships

Without Support, weapons, fuel, ammunition and personnel are suffocated...

destroying Harriers is always desirable, but it does not increase the number of ships hit... and thus, the British Navy would complete its mission in the same way, even losing more harriers... which in fact... would be replaced... as it was and it would be natural to happen...

See the impact on the land operation of the immense amount of material lost on the Conveyeor...

Again, there was no mission aborted by the presence of the Harrier....why would the number of ships hit increase if some more were shot down in air-to-air combat...? the success would be marginal...another 1 or 2 ships....? very little... the focus has to be on the ships... there are many criticisms that attacks should be focused on logistical ships and less on frigates...

 

[uk 75]

Be careful what you wish for...
The defeat of the British Task Force in the South Atlantic and the loss of the Falklands (Malvinas) in Summer 1982 led to the fall of the Thatcher Government. Michael Foot's Labour Party won a 120 seat majority in the September 1982 General Election.
Secretary of State Kirkpatrick visited President Galtieri in October to assure him that Washington would look favourably on the supply of weapons to Buenos Aires.
Enoch Powell re-joined the Conservative Party and was elected Leader of the Parliamentary Party.
Conservative MPs joined Labour
colleagues in supporting the Foot Government's Defence Review:
Trident to be cancelled and Polaris decommissioned.
UK forces in West Germany and W Berlin to be withdrawn by 1984.
UK to request removal of US aircraft, ships and other weapons from bases in the UK by April 1983. US Personnel to follow.
UK re-negotiation of its membership of NATO and WEU to non-nuclear national defence only.
In her Christmas speech to the Nation HM Queen Elizabeth praised the bravery of "all those who fought in the South Atlantic" but went on to say that the time had come for Britain to mend its ills at home and focus on peace.

 

[carvalho2008]

The report of the videos posted makes this clear...
The IFF at that time was not developed, and it was common for the ship to be forced to dismiss and order the Harriers to move away so that they could activate the ship's anti-aircraft defenses... well, the Argentines arrived with or without the Harrier....

Some colleagues have an anti-doctrinal persistence...

The troops cannot be disembarked... the material cannot be disembarked, the supply cannot be constant, because whoever maintains the position wins, and that is what the English navy achieved....

Shoot down a few more Harriers while the disembarkation and resupply is completed?

It is absolutely false to think that the number of air-to-air combat victories reflects aerial dominance...

You can lose fighters, but the most important thing is to win in bombing...

It is the bombing that eliminates troops and tactical and strategic targets on land, including air bases

And the ship? well...ships are exactly the material and logistical bases, including the air operation base as well...and the primary targets...it is part of the doctrine and history of all conflicts...if anyone still wants to focus on fighters...don't forget that many fighters are shot down before taking off...whether on land, at sea...or on an aircraft carrier...

 

[carvalho2008]

Sorry for insisting on the topic, but I want to offer and remember that it was a coastal war...

Few oceanic combats

Therefore, it is absolutely necessary to correlate that:

1) There was no AEW on the British side

2) As a coastal war, the Argentines used the relief of the islands in low-altitude flights to avoid radar

3) The harriers did not have a doppler pulse to see Argentines masquerading on the ground on the radar...the contact was visual because, as previously mentioned, the ships were in a channel...an arm of the sea surrounded by hills...that's why that the British attempted the radar picket oceanic external defense belt with the Sheffield...

4) The Harriers were few, with little CAP time, slow, were not in all the places they needed to be and arrived after the Argentine attack had concluded... many times, they were even dismissed because the Argentine incursion had already penetrated the perimeter of defense of the ship's combat stations, they were left, in the absolute majority of cases, to destroy surviving Argentines in evasion, as was the case...

4) Shooting down harriers in aerial combat, to reduce the attrition rate of spared Argentine planes, and thus achieve an increase in future attacks against ships would be a much more inglorious fight against time... as the landing would be underway, completed and advancing on the islands...

5) And again, more harriers would be replaced by other harriers...

 

[uk 75]

A serious Argentine defence of the islands with subs and strike aircraft would have focussed on the vessels carrying troops and equipment.
The warships were only there to support and protect these ships. In a general war with the Sovs they were expected to have short lives. The RN was prepared to lose escorts as long as they could get the troops and supplies ashore.
That said, Seacat, Seaslug, Seadart and Seawolf were all being used in ways and places they were not designed for. Air Superiority would normally have been assured by US carrier air and RAF support in a NATO war.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

My Dear Scott,

The premise for this is that the Harrier CAPs would have frustrated and aborted a significant number of Argentine air attacks on the British fleet.

Did this occur? No!

The overwhelming majority of the kills were after the Argentine mission already carried out against the ships

The Harriers' CAPS did not work to defend the ships.

They only showed efficiency in air combat when the planes had already discharged their bombs or in the initial days of air-to-air combat... in other words, this premise only aims to reduce Argentine air losses, but not to achieve its primary objective.

Many choices can be made for air-to-air combat, but remember that the Harriers did not rise to altitude and the mirages often did not descend, each trying to maintain its ideal flight envelope for combat....but the advantage In this regard was with the British....they were in air defense...and to hit ships...someone would have to lower the altitude...Argentineans needed a good missile...Magic never had optimistic results ...I don't know good results from it in other conflicts, I really don't know of records of attacks in which A-4 and Daggers had to jettison bombs and return because they were blocked, much less shot down on the way to the attack... anyway, you can reduce Argentine air losses, but the The fact is that the losses due to attrition of the British ships were already underway, at a speed higher than that of the Argentine aviation, what they needed was to hit more and explode the devices that constantly penetrated the decks of the ships... focusing on the ship was the primary objective...see...would taking down a few more Harriers resolve the issue? Wouldn't they be replaced by new shipments?

In the video of "First Lieutenant Carlos "Charly" Perona was the protagonist of the first clash between the Argentine military aviation and the Harrier fighter-bombers of the British invading fleet. He did so piloting a Mirage III on May 1, 1982, the day of the Argentine Air Force's baptism of fire in the Malvinas War. When facing two enemy aircraft, armed with the lethal Sidewinder L missile, which the US had given to Great Britain, the Argentine aviator was shot down, ejected and managed to survive. Perona, "


He said the Magic was not good, in my humble opinion Python 3 or even AIM-9L on Skyhawks would had made a difference

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5cf5JDFh0&t=346s


This video mention how Guarani Language was used to confuse the British by not using Spanish, but Guarani, he says how many British spoke Guarani?

 

[Rule of cool]

IIUC most if not all A4s were inflight refuelled for their attacks around the Falklands. Like the Daggers and Mirage IIIs they lacked the fuel to fight back against the Sea Harriers, unless they could undertake an emergency taking on their way back or land at Port Stanley.