Alternative fighter for Argentine AF & Navy during Falklands war.

[Archibald]

But then again, I think it comes down to the fact that the invasion of the Falkland Islands was launched too early, when not all Argentine forces were ready for a confrontation with the British, which had not been sufficiently thought through.

Spot on. When planning the Falklands invasion the Junta military wasn't that fool. They had made a detailed list of events planned across the year 1982 that were to play to its advantage - and to the british disavantage.
Events like
- Nott eviscerating the RN
- Invincible going to Australia
- Additional S.E and Exocet delivered
- The southern hemisphere seasons are reversed, so summer 1982 = winter season (June to September)

But for a host of complex reasons the invasion happened at OTL date and to Argentina disadvantage.
One of the reason was the the new 1981 Junta was a mix of the three armies officers: army, navy, air force. So they - supposedly - cooperated inside the junta and were supposed to cooperate efficiently for the invasion.

What happened was that they did not cooperated because of political rivalries between then. Ayana for example was a member of the Junta and from the Navy.

 

[F.L.]

I think that at the time, the best solution would have been Israeli help to modernize the Mirages/Daggers, in particular to add in-flight refueling capability.

Back in 1978, during the Beagle conflict, the Peruvians offered to sell the Argentinians 10 Mirage 5Ps for 1 million each, to help them against the Chileans.
In the end, the Argentinians let the offer lapse, and the Mirage 5 Mara were later delivered in 1982.
But if the Argentinians had received them earlier, and it had been delivered with in-flight refuelling booms, that would have changed the game.
AS-30s were also sold by Peru with the Mirage 5s, and if they had been available during the conflict, they might have performed well against the British ships.

Mirage 5P + air-air refueling + AS-30 = ?

 

[1635yankee]

But then again, I think it comes down to the fact that the invasion of the Falkland Islands was launched too early, when not all Argentine forces were ready for a confrontation with the British, which had not been sufficiently thought through.

Arguably, Argentina would have benefited from waiting, because the Thatcher government's naval reforms would have made it quite unlikely for the British to be capable of retaking the Falklands.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Back in 1978, during the Beagle conflict, the Peruvians offered to sell the Argentinians 10 Mirage 5PAs for 1 million each, to help them against the Chileans.
In the end, the Argentinians let the offer lapse, and the Mirage 5 Mara were later delivered in 1982.
But if the Argentinians had received them earlier, and it had been delivered with in-flight refuelling booms, that would have changed the game.
AS-30s were also sold by Peru with the Mirage 5s, and if they had been available during the conflict, they might have performed well against the British ships.
View attachment 716957
Mirage 5PA + air-air refueling + A-30 = ?

1. Question
The IFR probe, was there in 1982' or was intaled in Peru later on?
2. Statement
We still need a B-707 tanker. The Kc-130 can´t do the job
FAP

 

[Archibald]

Fact is that in Africa, French Jaguars and Mirage F1s refueled behind C-160 Transall NG (next generation) which were really slow at high altitude, slower than any Hercules. No idea however if an old delta wing Mirage III could slow enough to refuel the same way. Non FBW deltas had a lot of drag at low speeds.

 

[F.L.]

The IFR probe, was there in 1982' or was intaled in Peru later on ?

Mirage 5Ps had in-flight refueling probes as early as the early 80s, it seems.
But the question is : were they removable probes like on the Mirage 2000 ?
And did the Mirage 5P have them or only the 5P/2/3/4 ?
Were these probes made, in Peru or France ?

 

[Arjen]

Arguably, Argentina would have benefited from waiting

Militarily, maybe. Politically, the generals needed something to distract the public from Argentina's economic shambles.

 

[Archibald]

That was the initial plan. They wanted to wait at least a few more weeks - to the onslaught of the austral winter, must have been around June 21, 1982. The RN acknowledged that they really feared the winter.

OTL they wanted to conclude the war before it started - once again, mid to late June. And they suceeded.

Think the junta plan was, the events that OTL happened over the months of march and april (South Georgia metal scrappers, then Falklands invasion proper) were to be moved closer from the beginning of austral spring - I'd say may-june. As the junta knew how much time it would take for the british to a) mobilize and b) move a task force from Europe to Ascension to Falklands: six to eight weeks.

Somewhat like the russians did last winter in Ukraine, they would then have dug in and reinforced during the winter months (I would say: june to september at last).

In a sense, the Junta wanted the british to run into the winter, postpone their intervention. Then they would have dug in (in the island) while reinforcing their military strength (S.E & Exocets among other stuff) on the continent.

No idea when austral winter ends (must be around autumn in our hemisphere, inverted: that's September 21) then spring pushes to December 21 when summer starts ?

So the british task force would have to wait october or later ?

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Mirage 5Ps had in-flight refueling probes as early as the early 80s, it seems.
But the question is : were they removable probes like on the Mirage 2000 ?
And did the Mirage 5P have them or only the 5P/2/3/4 ?
Were these probes made, in Peru or France ?

I don ´t think that the planes had they probes when was recieved by Peru



The probe have the french style
F-1


M-5P

 

[Archibald]

It took quite a long time for Mirage III (by large, V included) to get refueling probes. Mirage 50 had it by 1979: legacy of Mirage F1, kinda.

But before - no idea. I even wonder if the Israelis did not did it before Dassault, somewhere in the 1970's (Kfir ?)

My understanding is that Mirage III nose and internal tankage, being older generation than Mirage F1 (almost born with a refueling probe) was not really optimal to add a refueling probe.

By the way, in the end there are two diffeent refueling probes on Mirage III
- the F1-like, planted on the nose
- the one above the air intake

Then again, I'm not sure that Mirage F1C as entering service even in 1973 with the AdA, had the refueling probe. Think it came with the F1C-200 series.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

It took quite a long time for Mirage III (by large, V included) to get refueling probes. Mirage 50 had it by 1979: legacy of Mirage F1, kinda.

But before - no idea. I even wonder if the Israelis did not did it before Dassault, somewhere in the 1970's (Kfir ?)

My understanding is that Mirage III nose and internal tankage, being older generation than Mirage F1 (almost born with a refueling probe) was not really optimal to add a refueling probe.

By the way, in the end there are two diffeent refueling probes on Mirage III
- the F1-like, planted on the nose
- the one above the air intake

Then again, I'm not sure that Mirage F1C as entering service even in 1973 with the AdA, had the refueling probe. Think it came with the F1C-200 series.

Archibald
If I m not worng, this type was with the help of Israel