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Pakistan is behind all of this.
Better by far if it had been the US behind all of this: the seemingly criminally incompetent decision to announce a quick withdrawl, leaving allies in the lurch *and* a pile of ammo, weapons and supplies behind was actually a devious scheme to bring the Taliban out into the open. Get them to come in... and then spring traps. Bases full of stuff explode. Sudden "accidental" releases of nerve gas and napalm. Ten thousand spider holes spring open and reveal coked-up African mercs.

But that would require not only strategic thinking and bloodthirstiness, it would require a President who was actually *awake.*

America only bombs itself with nerve gas thank you very much.

Such a brilliant strategic plan would require the Taliban to have nerve gas for America to blow up anyway.

If America were bloodthirsty it would just have conquered Afghanistan and enslaved its people, giving 10 jugera to every American Legionnaires' Club member, two goats, and a few slaves. Putting bombs in an airbase isn't going to do anything. The Taliban know that the planes are going to bomb. They don't care.

A bigger brain move would be to have treated the Taliban like a legitimate and popularly supported government that they clearly are.

There's not much hope for turning Afghanistan into a bastion of women's rights and Coca-Cola, which was as obvious in 2001 (just look at the Soviet example, or the Anglo-Afghan Wars) as it is now, at least to anyone not blinded by ideology. The fact that Afghans turned so quickly is proof that they didn't buy what the Americans were selling. They were more than happy for the free paychecks though.
 
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I think some here are seemingly all too quick to place the blame for this tragedy on Pres. Biden while conveniently forgetting that Pres. Trump also wanted the same outcome.
 
Not quite. For example, the Trump era plans would have seen both air cover and contractor support maintained. Whether that would have worked out in practice is debatable of course.
 
I think some here are seemingly all too quick to place the blame for this tragedy on Pres. Biden while conveniently forgetting that Pres. Trump also wanted the same outcome.
President Trump wanted our, true. But there are different ways of going about it. Biden chose a path seemingly calculated to fail.
 
So, what's the plan? Stop the withdrawal? It appears that is not the plan.

There is, would have been, no crisis if plans were in place. A bit late now to "figure out" what happened.

Meanwhile, who is supplying the bad guys with weapons and equipment?
 
I think some here are seemingly all too quick to place the blame for this tragedy on Pres. Biden while conveniently forgetting that Pres. Trump also wanted the same outcome.
President Trump wanted our, true. But there are different ways of going about it. Biden chose a path seemingly calculated to fail.

No. All Afghans just hate Kabul. Simple as.
 
In October 1963, when Harold Macmillan was handing over the prime ministership to Alec Douglas-Home, he is supposed to have passed on some advice.
"My dear boy, as long as you do not invade Afghanistan you will be absolutely fine," he said.

If we can stay off the politics and concentrate on the news, then the topic can stay in The Bar for now.
 
The usual suspect no doubt, via Pakistan for the most part. Pakistan has a big relationship with the Taliban and have done so for decades.
 
Wait! Those two photos are... are totally the same!!

You win a few, you lose... Or you just end up leaving and the resulting power vacuum ends up being filled.
 
Is it me or did the Afghan military collapse faster than any amount of Taliban external pressure was capable of? What I'm asking is does it look like the betrayal was coming from inside the house to everyone else too?
 
Taliban ideology is so deeply ingrained in the dominant Pashtun tribesmen, that Taliban control has been inevitable for centuries.
 
Another retreat from Kabul.....hopefully with a better outcome than Gen. Elphinstone had. Hopefully, "Bloody Lance" will get to Gandamuk and away...
 
Is it me or did the Afghan military collapse faster than any amount of Taliban external pressure was capable of? What I'm asking is does it look like the betrayal was coming from inside the house to everyone else too?

They collapsed far faster than the Communist regime did. They lasted until the next summer after the Soviet's withdrawal...
 

This is why the "sudden collapse" happened. It has been festering for years. Afghanistan hasn't been stable, the gov has slowly been eroded and taking casualties at a horrific rate.

NATO pulled out of major combat operations, and handed the front line to the ANA. This is why casualties on the US side have been so seemingly low while the Taliban "was at bay" or whatever delusion people drove themselves to believe.
 
Taliban ideology is so deeply ingrained in the dominant Pashtun tribesmen, that Taliban control has been inevitable for centuries.

Wild, considering the Taliban are barely 30 years old.

Pashtuns are Pashtuns and don't like women, gays, or kleptocrat pedophiles. That's just how they are, and they're proud of that too. They are much closer in thinking to a 19th century Britisher than a 21st century Westerner, really.

This is not a deep secret to anyone who bothers reading a travel guide from the 90s though. The Taliban just exploited (in a non-pergorative sense) these long standing practices and cultural beliefs to create a government that had some semblance of popular support among the politically active classes of Afghanistan: village headmen, tribal elders of local things/jirgas, and rural, adult, fighting age males.

It's not much different to what the US did with its support of the KMT (the uglier and more corrupt of the CPC), the ARVN (ditto), or the ROK (which managed to turn itself around eventually), as the US modus operandi is to support kleptocrats. Or maybe kleptocrats just gravitate to America when it bombs a somewhat stable government it disagrees with.

The United States attempted to import an alien culture that the Pashtuns disagreed with, while employing kleptocrats to do so. It overlooked and brushed aside real complaints from the common folks, failed to recognize (collectively) that it cannot do what it wants to do, and never bothered to change course. Afghans probably would have accepted an American Army of Retribution or Punitive Expedition, Central Command, because it's a rough place and that's what Afghans would do in the same situation. They wouldn't try to force Pashtunwali down the throats of Bay Area tech bros.

The last time the US did a major, classical style punitive expedition was Panama. The second to last time was Iran and Praying Mantis. It's hardly rare. Why Afghanistan was different is complicated (the US State Department had become something of a religious cult in the wake of the Reagan Administration's misunderstandings of Marxist-Leninism and the reasons for the collapse of the USSR, which was sort of like a post-modern, mirror image Domino Theory), but suffice to say you can boil the main issues down like this:

Pashtuns are Islamic, rural, pious farmers.
Americans (and their allies) are Christian, urban, secular bureaucrats.

This is something of an unbridgeable divide unless you're willing to put aside that you can't mould Pashtuns into Americans, which is apparently difficult for the US State Department to do, collectively. The British Raj did this only after the 1842 disaster, in the 1880s when it was able to come to terms with the Emirate through the Treaty of Gandamak.

The United States may still learn from the experience and similarly be able to come to peaceful terms with Pashtuns in the future.
 
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Oh the naivety ... the result would have been the same regardless.
I wonder if the US thought that 2021 in Afghanistan would be any different to 1975 in Vietnam ?

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy)
The Life of Reason: The Phases of Human Progress (1905-1906)
Vol. I, Reason in Common Sense
 
There was an Afghan woman reporter on the news and she blamed "The corrupt Afghan government" for the debacle,. and especially the ones who 'ran away'.
 
IMHO, the main reasons of the whole collapse were:

* US failed to understood the traditions of tribal politics and warfare in Afghanistan, which assumed that defectors from losing side should be allowed to join the victorious and given some (at least token) representation in ruling. Instead, US went for total destruction of the opposing side.

* US absolutely failed in nation-building. Turns out that abstract ideas of "liberty", "human rights", and "opportunity" by themselves means very little, and, if not supported by actions, are not attractive for non-Europeanized populaion (which is the majority of Afghani). And "pumping in money" and "creating business opportunities" just simply did not work in such situations; it benefits only elite, not to mention, that the only business US managed to create here was illegal drug trade.

* US failed to comprehend the Soviet experience, under the purely ideological cliche that "they failed because of Communism, and therefore this experience is irrelevant for us". Near-paranoid fear of American elite toward any socialist or communist ideas really started to jinx US functioning; you could not just cut away a giant chunk of social, political and economical concepts and trying to pretend they never existed.

As a result... Well, pro-Soviet government in Kabul endured for three years after Soviet troops were withdrawn. Pro-American collapsed in mere days.
 
They collapsed far faster than the Communist regime did. They lasted until the next summer after the Soviet's withdrawal...
Because pro-Soviet regime have at least some "vision of future" that locals could understood and even agree with. Ideas that "rich peoples should not be allowed to took everything from poor" and "all property should belong to everyone equialy", while obviously flawed, are far easier to traditionalistic, mostly-illiterate Afghan rural population to comprehend, that American complex (and incoherent) ideas. Also, USSR invested quite a lot into actually improving Afghanistan infrastructure: building roads, power plants, hospitals, waterworks. Americans just showered the Afghan elite with money, hoping that "free market would decide". And market decided to stole the money.
 
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