brewerjerry
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joncarrfarrelly said:The statement about Packard producing Peregrines as an "extension of their production for American PT-Boats" makes absolutely no sense. The engine used in the PT boats was Packard's own 4M-2500, a 2500 cu. in. V-12 which had no relation to the Peregrine, or any other R-R engine for that matter.
ReccePhreak said:I would LOVE to see more info on the proposed photo-recce Whirlwinds, enough to allow me to convert an existing model to one.
Larry
Types mentioned:F.37/35
Single Seater, Day and Night Fighter
Westland P.9 Whirlwind
See other types below
File no. 465863/35/RDA3
Issued to Tender, 15/2/36
Air Staff Operational Requirement OR.31 required a fighter capable of operating by day and night for home defence or with the Field Force. In order to obtain a striking power superior to the eight-gun fighter, it was necessary to provide four 20 mm automatic guns. At least six firms responded with designs for a heavily-armed high-speed fighter with an all-round clear view for the pilot.
Schneiderman said:I'm not sure that the concept of an escort fighter was seen as high priority in 1935/36 as bombers were expected to carry sufficient defensive armament
Schneiderman said:A few comments.
A good place to ask about the details of the specification would be http://www.raf.mod.uk/ahb/. They have provided copies of specs. to me in the past with no charge.
Also you could try http://www.whirlwindfighterproject.org/
Supermarine tendered two designs to F.37/35 of which one, Type 312, had the same (+/-) fuel tankage as the Spitfire, on which it was based. Not sufficient for an escort role.
I'm not sure that the concept of an escort fighter was seen as high priority in 1935/36 as bombers were expected to carry sufficient defensive armament
Tony Williams said:Schneiderman said:I'm not sure that the concept of an escort fighter was seen as high priority in 1935/36 as bombers were expected to carry sufficient defensive armament
The RAF firmly believed that a long-range escort fighter was not viable because it would need to carry so much fuel that it would be too big to compete with the enemy interceptors. Some of them continued to believe this even after the Merlin-engined Mustang was in service. So they gave no priority to long-range fighters able to "mix it" with interceptors.
Kadija_Man said:Except for the already mentioned Mustang, and of course the Thunderbolt and the Mosquito and the Tempest...
True, that belief had held since the early 1920s but doubts were already beginning to be expressed in the early 1930s after the RAFs annual exercises seemed to indicate that, despite numerous problems, interception rates were sometimes higher than expected. The case for the fighter was then raised by several influential people (Dowding for one) and specs. for new types took on a higher priority. Radar certainly reinforced their arguments considerably, the weak element in early detection having been resolved.Kadija_Man said:Bombers were also expected to "always make it through" and be "uninterceptable" until the advent of Radar.
Tony Williams said:Kadija_Man said:An important factor is that once RAF Bomber Command had become totally focused on night bombing, escort fighters simply had no role in the RAF except for the relatively small number of tactical raids which required daylight for maximum precision (and the Mossie could often manage those by itself).
Actually, Beaufighters and Mosquitos were used as escort night fighters fairly extensively late in the war. They might have been used earlier, had AI radar sets been released for use over the continent.
iverson said:Actually, Beaufighters and Mosquitos were used as escort night fighters fairly extensively late in the war. They might have been used earlier, had AI radar sets been released for use over the continent.
In 4+ Publication's monograph on the Welkin there are two smashing images of a line up of six Welkins on the field at Yeovil. The caption describes them a very rare. There is also a close up of the Welkins from the image you posted, LowObservable. (I'm not gonna scan the images for fear of breaching someone's IP)It's the only photo I have ever seen that shows more than one of the 60-plus Welkins that were built.
I didn't find the argument particularly convincing. There is a distinct shortage of detailed information on propeller characteristics from that era but what is available suggests that the problem was more complex than portrayed. Not to say that the DH prop was in any way 'best-in-class' but other factors had to be in play to explain the lacklustre performance of the WhirlyArticle in The Aviation Historian no 20 on the Whirlwind’s disappointing performance. Author claims it was down to the propellers fitted.
I didn't find the argument particularly convincing. There is a distinct shortage of detailed information on propeller characteristics from that era but what is available suggests that the problem was more complex than portrayed. Not to say that the DH prop was in any way 'best-in-class' but other factors had to be in play to explain the lacklustre performance of the WhirlyArticle in The Aviation Historian no 20 on the Whirlwind’s disappointing performance. Author claims it was down to the propellers fitted.
the consistent presence of defensive armament on new types all the way through the interwar period suggests otherwise.
Too much to go into here but performance comparisons with other propellers and aircraft shows that the Whirlwind was always lagging somewhat. Yes, it was better with Rotol props but there were clearly other things that were having an impact, tip thickness and mach alone does not explain it. It is reported that RR were never particularly happy with the air intake design and location in the radiator duct so there may be factors at play here which contributed to the drop-off in both climb rate and top speed at relatively low altitude.Such as what? And why did the second prototype perform well at altitude but the near identical, sans props, production type didn't?
Literature usually states that all Whirlwinds were scrapped, but some 20 years ago, I briefly had in my hands a book about Air museums in Britain showing the picture of a survivor, somewhere I don't remember. Can anybody comment...?
Also a Flight Combat simulator introduced the plane a while ago. I seem to have deleted the Youtube videos I had but It was a flop. Complains were of the ridiculous ammo supply, a maximum speed (reportedly) about 100kph below the real plane and a structural speed limit of 750/468 (?) kph/mph.
Does anybody know the Whirlwind's never exceed speed?
a copy of a reply i found on my computer cant remember the source board
"Here is an interesting quote regarding the Peregrine and the Whirlwind from the RRHT book "Rolls-Royce - The pursuit of excellence" by Alec Harvey-Baillie and Michael Evans...
"While it lacked high altitude performance it proved to be a formidable FGA aircraft when the Peregrines were rated at 880 hp on 100 octane fuel. Contrary to popular view the Peregrine was not unreliable. Its two main problems were rapidly tackled. Main engine joint failures were overcome by deleting the joint washers and using jointing compound, while bowstring failures of end cylinder holding down studs were cured by reduced anti-vibration collar clearances.
Some of the stories of unreliability spring from difficulty in managing the operation of the radiator shutters during taxiing, take-off and initial climb. Westland had linked the radiator shutter operation with that of the flaps to keep the radiator shutters open, when flaps were not needed for flight. In early operations a number of engines were overheated because the system was not fully understood, and evidence of this is in the pilot's notes which were extensively amended."
Helicopters, not WW2 fighters. Unfortunately.Well I have some shocking news. I just found a copy of Great Aircraft Collections of The World by Bob Hogden (1984, 1986). The author lists no less than four British Aircraft Museums having a Whirlwind.
This is rather interesting, if correct then the propeller issue is the major factor.