Washington DC air collision (January 2025)

sferrin said:
Yes, I'm sure the FAA leader would have, like... Kal-El himself, single-handedly saved the day. And he quit. Elon Musk didn't fire him FFS. He doesn't even have the authority to.

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My God. Elon is a retarded monster.

EDS is the new TDS.
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The Washington Times is not a credible or reliable news source. (Frankly, neither is the Washington Post.)
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Its possible to believe in efficient government but simultaneously doubt that DOGE and Elon is the correct way to achieve it.
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Fair. But nobody has tried anything else, and he does have a track record of making his companies efficient. Who else has a better track record? We need solutions yesterday.
 
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TomS said:
The Washington Times is not a credible or reliable news source. (Frankly, neither is the Washington Post.)
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Name your "credible" source that says the former head of the FAA was fired and did not resign.
 
sferrin said:
Fair. But nobody has tried anything else, and he does have a track record of making his companies efficient.
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I'm not sure I want his model of making Twitter 'efficient' applied to aviation or any other safety critical endeavour - remember, one of the first things he did was sack most of the safeguarding staff.
 
WatcherZero said:
Trump has just given a press conference blaming the crash on Diversity hiring at the FAA and the helicopter having a very bad angle.
The FAA are "Actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions".
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Shhhh! No one tell him I worked on 777!
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Its possible to believe in efficient government but simultaneously doubt that DOGE and Elon is the correct way to achieve it.
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True. But he have the energy and determination to do SOMETHING, not merely to constantly discuss the problem till the heat death of the Universe. At very least, he may demonstrate that the problem - while great - is not insurmountable, not "too big to even hope to solve it". It's my IMHO, of course, but I think that a lot of the today's world problems are rooted in the fact, that modern political elites are generally old, and have no energy or determination to act, when required.
 
Per comment above that TrumPOTUS has opined...

Yeah, verily, he is fully fledged example of serial 'TL;DR', again Trumpeting off before the facts are in...

Also apparent that this is a complex, multi-factored failure which put hapless helo in wrong place, wrong height, wrong time. And thus those Swiss Cheese slices' holes fatally align...
 
I am tired of the thinly veiled "he is wrong" in reference to anyone. Perhaps a separate ALL POLITICS ALL THE TIME thread should be established.

* But then I would constantly have to wipe the adrenaline off my computer screen...
 
We are immersed in the first serious culture war since 1973, any information published is suspicious. Waiting for the reports of the technicians would be a good idea.
 
DWG said:
I'm not sure I want his model of making Twitter 'efficient' applied to aviation or any other safety critical endeavour - remember, one of the first things he did was sack most of the safeguarding staff.
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Speaking of which:
Members of [TSA's] Aviation Security Advisory Committee received a memo Tuesday saying that [DHS] is eliminating the membership of all advisory committees as part of a “commitment to eliminating the misuse of resources and ensuring that DHS activities prioritize our national security.”

The aviation security committee, which was mandated by Congress after the 1988 PanAm 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, will technically continue to exist but it won’t have any members to carry out the work of examining safety issues at airlines and airports.
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apnews.com

Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard and guts key aviation safety advisory committee

President Donald Trump has moved quickly to remake the Department of Homeland Security by firing the heads of the Transportation Security Administration and Coast Guard before their terms are up while eliminating all the members of a key aviation security advisory group.
apnews.com apnews.com

Not implying this is Elon, but it's the kind of cutting that prioritises ideology over safety.
 
Justo Miranda said:
We are immersed in the first serious culture war since 1973, any information published is suspicious. Waiting for the reports of the technicians would be a good idea.
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"Culture war"? What is that? Two tribal groups want to be in charge. Both can't be right.
 
Well, the stress on public workers from Trump language, messages and directives was inappropriate. Especially through direct contact via emails. Many of those people have a real affect with public service and being at the end of the line directly with their president has probably induced unwanted stress on many. Who knows what would be the unwanted consequences in the near future.

Then there is the fact that a recent schedule modifications of the tower controllers impacted the staffing numbers from two to one. A 50% decrease in personnel present at the time that is going to be for sure scrutinized heavily. Does this 50% reduction matches a 50% decrease in traffic? And so on...

We are not at the end of this. But the good news is that US democracy is on the move, doing what it does best, questioning, investigating and looking for answers.

No recording have been lost. So far, no campaigns of derogatory comments have surfaced in the press to point on any specific individuals. No canvassing have muted the release in the press and formal agencies communications. Let's hope that it continues that way.
 
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sferrin said:
Name your "credible" source that says the former head of the FAA was fired and did not resign.
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I was reacting to the headline of that article.

That said, find me a source that is not essentially "he quit under pressure from Musk." Jumped instead of being pushed.

Now, turning back to this accident, I do not believe the departure of the head of the FAA had any impact on it. This situation was created well below the attention level of any agency head.
 
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Enough with the political posts, including those referencing DEI BS. Just because The US President claimed the cause was DEI so as to play politics does not mean we have to go down that rabbit hole. Let's keep some dignity and keep to facts - people died after all!! Let's wait and see what the proper accident investigation says.
 
I don't know how the altimeter of a Blackhawk works, but if the article that says that the pilot used a night vision is true, perhaps he could not control the altitude correctly. In my opinion, these practices should be carried out in the desert or on a model simulating a city to learn to distinguish the ground lights from the navigation lights of another plane. It doesn't make sense to me to make so many military helicopter flights in the area, although I suppose there must be a good reason for that. In principle I am in favor of the pilot, I believe that the greatest responsibility should be for the flight controller, his function is to correct the mistakes of others, which will always occur.
 
The New York Times in a report said that the military helicopter that collided with an American Airlines regional jet on Wednesday night appeared to have been flying too high and outside its approved flight path at the time of the crash.

Citing sources, the report said that the Army Black Hawk helicopter was meant to fly at a lower altitude and in a different area while navigating the congested airspace around Reagan National Airport.

Before a helicopter can enter any busy commercial airspace, it must get the approval of an air traffic controller. In this case, the pilot of the helicopter asked the air traffic controller for permission to use a specific, predetermined route that lets helicopters fly no higher than 200 feet and that hugs the bank on the east side of the Potomac River, a location that would have let it avoid the American Airlines plane, The New York Times reported.

The requested route, known as Route 4 at Reagan, was a route familiar to both the air traffic controller and the helicopter pilot. The pilot visually identified the American Airlines plane, and the controller directed the helicopter to follow the assigned route and stay behind the aircraft.
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www.reuters.com

Washington DC plane crash

An American Airlines regional passenger jet and a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter collided midair
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

So considerably above the 200 ft ceiling, off course and told ATC they saw the aircraft.

Bit of a worry.

Regards,
 
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overscan (PaulMM) said:
Its possible to believe in efficient government but simultaneously doubt that DOGE and Elon is the correct way to achieve it.
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I'm still sore that the airport was named after a union buster who ran off air traffic controllers.

--and now, a Learjet has hit a mall...an air ambulance no less. January has been a cruel month. Not only did the Washington crash have little figure skaters, but the Learjet had a pediatric patient.

Lears are agile--I could see an oxygen tank rolling off a gurney--a fitting knocked loose, and the tank perhaps jetting forwards.....
--striking the pilot in the back?

The tank knocks him forward into the stick, causing an unwanted dive.

The resulting cascade of contents rolls forward--worsening the dive beyond recovery--pure oxygen from the tank break adding to the fireball upon impact...

 
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WatcherZero said:
Anyway in the real world.
Helicopter was flying exactly the recommended fightpath, however there is a ceiling of 200ft for helicopters in the Washington area and the helicopter was flying at 300ft.
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No it was not.

Compare this close-up of the charts:
Dynoman said:
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Helicopter routes around DC. Route 1 and Route 4, which the Blackhawk was flying (Route 4 and the approach end of Runway 33 is where the impact occurred) is the route closest to the approach end of any runway. I think that a repositioning of this route along the dotted Police air units routing to the east is an option.
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With this image of the two plane's course-over-ground:
TomcatViP said:
Sat view with trajectory:

Southbound: Blackhawk
Northbound: CRJ
ai2html-graphic-mobile375.5ae46328.jpg
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Note that per the charts, the helicopter should have been next to the east bank of the river, and not to exceed 200ft in altitude.

Instead the helo was over the middle of the river, and 350ft up. Which is absolutely square in the ILS glideslope for Runway 33.

Helo was off course and way off altitude. CRJ was in a left turn, so the fuselage was blocking the pilot's view of the helo.

Significant contributing factor is some fucking idiot approving helicopter flights with less than 500ft vertical separation between them and the runway approach to one of the busiest airports in the US!
 
publiusr said:
I'm still sore that the airport was named after a union buster who ran off air traffic controllers.

--and now, a Learjet has hit a mall...an air ambulance no less. January has been a cruel month. Not only did the Washington crash have little figure skaters, but the Learjet had a pediatric patient.

Lears are agile--I could see an oxygen tank rolling off a gurney--a fitting knocked loose, and the tank perhaps jetting forwards.....
--striking the pilot in the back?

The tank knocks him forward into the stick, causing an unwanted dive.

The resulting cascade of contents rolls forward--worsening the dive beyond recovery--pure oxygen from the tank break adding to the fireball upon impact...
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Let's hold off on idle, unsubstantiated speculation, please.
 
Scott Kenny said:
No it was not.

Compare this close-up of the charts:

With this image of the two plane's course-over-ground:

Note that per the charts, the helicopter should have been next to the east bank of the river, and not to exceed 200ft in altitude.
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Thats pretty much spot on, some minor jumps in position likely due to ADSB tracking anomalies. I already mentioned that the helicopter was at 300ft according to ADSB data though some saying 350ft at moment of impact.

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Track with more data points:

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It’s just a repeat of the Crowdstrike situation. Massive layoffs obliterated the morale of the survivors and led to major staff shortage. Mistakes are made and here we are.
 

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