IOTL the first General Election after the Suez Crisis was held on 08.10.59. The Conservatives under Harold Macmillan won with a majority of 100.

ITTL the reaction to the Crisis was so bad that it forced Anthony Eden/Harold Macmillan to call a General Election which was won by a Labour Party that was much more left wing that IOTL.

The problem with the British far and extreme left for the purposes of this thread is that they tends to be pacifist and isolationist. E.g. in the early 1980s when the left-wing controlled the Labour Party making it so left-wing it that it verged on being communist it wanted Britain to leave NATO and the then EEC, become a non-aligned nation and scrap the strategic nuclear deterrent. That was part of its manifesto for the 1983 General Election and that document was known as the longest suicide note in history.

The contemporary Bevanite faction of the party was against high defence expenditure (especially nuclear weapons) although Bevan himself was against unilateral nuclear disarmament and said "It would send a British Foreign Secretary naked into the conference-chamber".

Correction, I mixed Ernest Bevin and Aneurin Bevan up again. I'm the same with the actors Brian Glover and Julian Glover.
 
The Red UK may have access to Soviet raw materials on generous terms which would compensate for loosing access to them in the western world. Oil and uranium spring to mind. Plus it would be paying for them in softer currencies than IOTL. E.g. paying for the oil in Rubles instead of Dollars.

IOTL petrol rationing was reintroduced in December 1956 and didn't end until May 1957, due to limited access to oil supplies due to the closure of the canal. ITTL the UK suddenly changes it's main supplier of oil from the Middle East to the Caucasus, which is reached via the Mediterranean & Black Seas and a much shorter route than the than going to the Persian Gulf via the Cape of Good Hope.

When foreign beach holidays become popular fortnight's in Salazar's Portugal and Franco's Spain won't be allowed. The proletariat of Red UK will be encouraged to visit Yugoslavia and the Black Sea over capitalist destinations like France, Greece and Italy.

Also there's Cyprus and Malta which the UK won't give up ITTL.
 
Did you see the 15 Jaguars squadrons? They can also do short-range nuclear strike. ITTL there were 40 squadrons in the late 1970s, but 25 converted to Tornado IDS during the 1980s.

Having written that, the Red UK's plan for World War III may be to invade the North of France in support of the Soviet-led invasion of West Germany. In that case another 1,000 Harrier GR.1 to T.4 instead of an equal number of Jaguars may be better as they can cross the channel and operate from improvised forward air bases faster than the Jaguars.

Also ITTL the Red UK's plan for World War III may include invading Norway in support of the USSR instead of the OTL plan which was to reinforce the Norwegians. They'll also want to take the Faroe Islands and Iceland to clear the already compromised ITTL GIUK Gap.
Except those Jaguars would be something closer to a MiG-23 or -27, but they might work. The issue is how many different directions RedUK needs to reach out at once.


Although I dislike the expression "bunch of" as much as I despise "target" as a verb, "load out", "swap out", "stood up", "multiple", "sport's" when they mean "sport" or "sport's" and mathematics abbreviated to "math" instead of "math's" - did you notice the 55 squadrons of Tornado IDS (plus 5 to be formed on mobilisation) and 10 squadrons of Buccaneers in the list?
  • The former were Su-24 analogues, which replaced some of the Jaguars, the overland-strike Buccaneers and the surviving Vulcans.
  • At its peak there would have been 25 Buccaneer squadrons in the Red RAF of which 10 were maritime strike (taking the place of the RN Buccaneer squadrons) and 15 were overland strike squadrons (replacing the Canberra and TSR.2).
  • The overland-strike Buccaneers were the standard RAF version of OTL, but ITTL there's the money to have them built with a TFR.
"Bunch" as in "a large but unspecified quantity"

And again, TFR required for these aircraft.


However, I suspect that rather than buying American they'd keep making the old British sonar until the new British sonar was ready. E.g. with radars the Type 965 radar was kept in production for 5-10 years too long and aught to have been replaced by a radar in the Type 1022 class about 5-10 years earlier. That's something that aught to happen ITTL. Then in turn we have Type 1022 replaced by Type 1030 in the first half of the 1980s.
The trick there is for the boffins to stop f*ing tinkering with it and declare it "good enough for service."


IIRC South Africa had Buccaneers exactly for that kind of mission.
Except without TFR, which is kinda required for European operations. Yall are gray-and-overcast almost as much as the "wet side" of Washington state! Which is more or less January 1 through December 31, for the record.



Operational considerations, a very rough outline. Feel free to add/correct.

There are three main vectors around which the RedUK would form the deployment strategy -

1. North Atlantic, against the US.
2. Cross-Channel, against France/Netherlands/West Germany.
3. Overseas, colonial and trade route control, also mainly against the US and local actors.

And two basic scenarios for each, namely full WW3 planning and routine Cold War operations.
Generally agree.

"Routine" Cold War operations against the US in the North Atlantic would likely consist of submarines surfacing in the middle of carrier groups and other similar "pranks." Maybe some "bumper boats" from surface ships, in confined waters like the Channel, Straits of Gibraltar, and Eastern Med.

I'm not sure there would be a lot of Cold War cross-channel operations, at least not many open operations. Inserting spies etc, sure. Maybe a few "oh, crap, new LT totally failed land navigation" events where a unit went across a border, and a few deliberate pranks.

Heard of a few of those, friend who was a tanker in the 1980s saw a Cobra helicopter go zooming overhead to the east. "Hey, I don't think that's right, we're like 500 yards from the Czech border!" Two minutes later, Cobra is absolutely hauling ass westward, with a Hind in hot pursuit. "Oops, that Hind screwed up. Better start the tracks." Two minutes after that, that Hind is now absolutely hauling ass eastward and there's an F-4 chasing it! The F-4 manages to break off before crossing the border, escalation stops.​
The prank was the entire Battalion lying in wait on the reverse slope about 2km from the border, there's a Red Army Division camped out in the open on their side of the border. US side wakes up, starts up all the tracks, everyone's checked in on radio. "Tally Ho!" gets called over the radio, and the whole Battalion going charging over the hill at the border. About 250 yards short of the border, "Break it off, Break it off!" and the whole Battalion turns around and goes back over the hill, while the Red Division is in a total panic like a kicked ant hill. US soldiers were amused, I'd assume Red Division much less so.​

The Cold War Overseas, Colonial, and Trade Route Control operations would likely look much the same as in the 1930s, but with different/newer/better equipment. Especially if the UK went Red in 1945, I doubt that they'd allow India to declare full independence. The big carriers would likely remain in the North Atlantic to annoy the USN, while the smaller carriers would be out and overseas.

Side note, I would not expect the Invincible class to get built, I'd expect the "ASW carriers" to be about the size of Hermes. 24ktons, not 16ktons standard displacement. This gives room for at least one catapult on the waist for launching tankers and AEW planes, while still operating Harriers.


For the full war, the plan would probably be to completely cut the US-Europe route, GIUK gap, take Faroes and Jan Mayen, blockade and eventually take possession of Iceland, knock the French navy and naval bases out, possibly land an army in Netherlands and support the WP offensive.
In order, I'd suggest that it'd be knock out the French Navy and bases, so that any US-sent supplies etc have to land in Spain or Portugal at best, then hit wherever the Supplies landed once they do. This is mostly by air, though I'm sure there would be subs tailing any French ships at sea.

In addition, RedUK sends every submarine not currently tailing a NATO target into the Atlantic to absolutely ruin the lives of the convoys and any US carriers, on Day 1.

The GIUK Gap is already broken with the UK going Red, the US would likely have to set up the eastern end of the SOSUS lines (or any other sonar listening in) in the Faroes or Norway. So taking that early would allow ships and especially Red Navy subs to also get into the North Atlantic.
Obvious possibility of Red Navy forward basing many subs in the UK so they don't have to run the GIUK Gap, which would reduce the urgency of taking the Faroes.​
After taking the Faroes it'd be time to go after Iceland. But while that is important because it removes US aircraft from operating in the middle of your access to the North Atlantic, it's not as critical as taking the east end of the SOSUS lines.

I'd expect the RedBAOR to march West into Belgium and Netherlands, so I'm not sure there's a reason to land an army in the Netherlands except as reinforcements. Ideally this would not require an opposed landing, but it'd be good to equip and practice for one. Obvious option to march North into Denmark instead, but I'd suggest the DDR or Polish forces be assigned to that instead.
 
ITTL the reaction to the Crisis was so bad that it forced Anthony Eden/Harold Macmillan to call a General Election which was won by a Labour Party that was much more left wing that IOTL.

The problem with the British far and extreme left for the purposes of this thread is that they tends to be pacifist and isolationist. E.g. in the early 1980s when the left-wing controlled the Labour Party making it so left-wing it that it verged on being communist it wanted Britain to leave NATO and the then EEC, become a non-aligned nation and scrap the strategic nuclear deterrent. That was part of its manifesto for the 1983 General Election and that document was known as the longest suicide note in history.
The irony here is that the split itself does not require a far left party to win elections, following Suez even the conservatives can get enraged enough to just decide to make the jump - lock, stock and barrel. Say right people in the right places... Given the apparently good relations between Philby and Macmillan around the time, something may have been possible even along those lines, especially with some more proactive support from the (profoundly humiliated) armed forces.
 
Except those Jaguars would be something closer to a MiG-23 or -27, but they might work. The issue is how many different directions RedUK needs to reach out at once.
Since Jaguar is a joint UK-France project, and seems to look like a hybrid between Mig-27 and the Harrier, it could either be developed with the Soviets and look exactly the same as IRL or their niche could be filled by regular Mig-27s.

Side note, I would not expect the Invincible class to get built, I'd expect the "ASW carriers" to be about the size of Hermes. 24ktons, not 16ktons standard displacement. This gives room for at least one catapult on the waist for launching tankers and AEW planes, while still operating Harriers.
Yes, you're right. Should be a modern version of Hermes, ~25-30kt, catapult on angled deck + ski-jump forward. Probably very similar in all other aspects, just a bit sleeker looking. I can probably even draft this model.

Except without TFR
South Africans intended to fly nuclear bombers without TFR? On African nights? Oh well.
But I would suppose it is possible to fit TFR on Buccaneer, isn't it?

I'm not sure there would be a lot of Cold War cross-channel operations, at least not many open operations. Inserting spies etc, sure. Maybe a few "oh, crap, new LT totally failed land navigation" events where a unit went across a border, and a few deliberate pranks.
Quoting the Navy Lark, 1959 - "This picturesque spot is known locally as Smuggler's Cove. And, as it's name implies, was once used by French smugglers in the illicit wine trade, and for all we know - it still is."
 
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Heard of a few of those, friend who was a tanker in the 1980s saw a Cobra helicopter go zooming overhead to the east. "Hey, I don't think that's right, we're like 500 yards from the Czech border!" Two minutes later, Cobra is absolutely hauling ass westward, with a Hind in hot pursuit. "Oops, that Hind screwed up. Better start the tracks." Two minutes after that, that Hind is now absolutely hauling ass eastward and there's an F-4 chasing it! The F-4 manages to break off before crossing the border, escalation stops.
Fun times :)

The Cold War Overseas, Colonial, and Trade Route Control operations would likely look much the same as in the 1930s, but with different/newer/better equipment. Especially if the UK went Red in 1945, I doubt that they'd allow India to declare full independence. The big carriers would likely remain in the North Atlantic to annoy the USN, while the smaller carriers would be out and overseas.
As my basic timeline splits after Suez, we would have independent India and Pakistan - just so that everybody's life wouldn't be easier.

In order, I'd suggest that it'd be knock out the French Navy and bases
Agree with the whole plan. US, on the other hand, would have to keep hell of a garrison in Iceland.
So taking that early would allow ships and especially Red Navy subs to also get into the North Atlantic.
Obvious possibility of Red Navy forward basing many subs in the UK so they don't have to run the GIUK Gap, which would reduce the urgency of taking the Faroes.
I thought of Faroes and Jan Mayen as an obvious route from Iceland to Norway that should be blocked from the other side.

it's not as critical as taking the east end of the SOSUS lines.
That's Canada coast?

Well, that's obvious, geography being the same and such, but it is still funny that a lot of plans made circa 1812 for operations both against France and US would become relevant again, albeit on a new technological level.
 
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The irony here is that the split itself does not require a far left party to win elections, following Suez even the conservatives can get enraged enough to just decide to make the jump - lock, stock and barrel. Say right people in the right places... Given the apparently good relations between Philby and Macmillan around the time, something may have been possible even along those lines, especially with some more proactive support from the (profoundly humiliated) armed forces.
Point taken. However, if you're going to do this. Do it properly.

Have the humiliated Conservative Government be forced to call a General Election in late 1956/early 1957 and have it won by a Labour Party dominated by an even more left-wing version of the Bevanite faction which is pro-Soviet, pro-heavy defence expenditure (in the interest of World Revolution) and pro-nuclear.

I was Minus Three in 1964. However, my impression was that many people thought things like Suez, Britain's relatively economic decline and the Profumo Affair were because the country had been run by a load of upper class twits for the last 13 years, which were known by some as "The Thirteen Wasted Years" and if the grammar school boys in the Labour Party were in power it would be the sunlit uplands in six months.

E.g. my parents (especially my mother) told me that many British people had high hopes of Harold Wilson before he became Prime Minster which were dashed afterwards. E.g. my mother told me that she thought, "He's a trained economist. He'll know what to do!" This is a person, who my father said (after she died) always voted Conservative. The Labour Government of 1964-70 of which he was the head was a bitter disappointment for many.

In your timeline bring that resentment towards the British ruling class forward eight years and make it more extreme than the OTL version.
 
Except those Jaguars would be something closer to a MiG-23 or -27, but they might work. The issue is how many different directions RedUK needs to reach out at once.
No. Those Jaguars would be something closer to the BAC P.45 or HS. P.1173.
"Bunch" as in "a large but unspecified quantity"
There were 90 squadrons of Tornados, Jaguars and Harriers in that list. And you want "a bunch of more" Harriers when the Red RAF is already twice the size of the OTL AdA, Luftwaffe and AMI put together! The Red RAF has the forces to win the European leg of World War Three without any help from the Soviets and the other air forces of Eastern Europe.
And again, TFR required for these aircraft.
They managed without a TFR for about 15 years IOTL and I told you that the resources to provide them with a TFR if need be were available ITTL.
The trick there is for the boffins to stop f*ing tinkering with it and declare it "good enough for service."
Once again I don't understand why you don't understand.
 
However, if you're going to do this. Do it properly.

Have the humiliated Conservative Government be forced to call a General Election in late 1956/early 1957 and have it won by a Labour Party dominated by an even more left-wing version of the Bevanite faction which is pro-Soviet, pro-heavy defence expenditure (in the interest of World Revolution) and pro-nuclear.
It is certainly a very viable option. From a storytelling standpoint I see advantages in both ways of achieving the resulting timeline (i.e. via either conservative pivot or a new labour cabinet), but your information provides a perspective I never really dwelled on. Thanks :)
 
With @Martes POD of late 1956 the newly Red UK: leaves NATO and joins the Warsaw Pact; doesn't try to join the then Common Market (tried because a certain Frenchman said "Non!" twice) and instead successfully applies to join Comecon (because Khrushchev replied with a resounding "Da!"); and on a lighter note remains in the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) but also joins OIRT the Eastern European version.

Why it's a lighter note will have to wait for another post.
 
On another lighter note, in adjacent window I am being advised to note Sir Clive Sinclair, of the Sinclair Research - IRL the ZX Spectrum clones were immensely popular behind the Iron Curtain, forming a whole cultural context for children and computer enthusiasts.
 
But back to naval affairs.

Side note, I would not expect the Invincible class to get built, I'd expect the "ASW carriers" to be about the size of Hermes. 24ktons, not 16ktons standard displacement. This gives room for at least one catapult on the waist for launching tankers and AEW planes, while still operating Harriers.
Yes, you're right. Should be a modern version of Hermes, ~25-30kt, catapult on angled deck + ski-jump forward. Probably very similar in all other aspects, just a bit sleeker looking. I can probably even draft this model.
Having cleared the issue of future light carrier programme, let's see about the escorts.

The more I read about Type 82, the more I love the ship, and the more I think this is the minimal and baseline design for a large surface escort that represents the Royal Navy thinking prior to the 1966 review.

Two quotes from Brown:

There was the eternal problem of quality versus quantity linked with a desire for a common hull for AA and AS ships.

In the mid-1960s the Admiralty hoped to retain an escort force of some ninety destroyers and frigates, which led to a requirement for four new ships each year, each with a 21-year life. Ideally, all should deploy Sea Dart and Ikara, implying ships similar to the Type 82 (Bristol).


The Kara/Bristol hybrid design I presented above is more or less equivalent to what was considered a lengthened Type 82 - additional Sea Dart, helicopter hangar, flag facilities. Following the admiralty logic, I think to use this hull for three variants, the third being equipped with 2-helicopter hangar, and have a slightly different arrangement of SA-N-9/Sea Wolf launchers, but still retaining Sea Dart forward.

Very preliminarily, the ship may look something like this (note that I also raised the knuckle along the hull to better conform the silhouette of the Bristol):

1740518037097.png

It is possible that this variant would make the second one (1 Sea Dart, 1 Sea Wolf cluster, 1 helicopter) redundant, and only the first (double-ended) and this are going to be built.

This ship should fill the place of Type 22 IRL until the introduction of later large anti-submarine frigate in the 80's, that will replace IRL Type 23.

Parallel with those large ships, there will be a long series of Type 12 frigates equipped with somewhat different weaponry, and a kind of a bit larger successor type to be developed in early 70's. Still have to think about how that one could look.
 
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That's Canada coast?
Eastern end of GIUK SOSUS is either Iceland or a station in Scotland, not sure which. (plus it was classified all to hell when Clancy was writing Red Storm Rising)

I'm assuming that the US would run the lines to either the Faroes or Norway instead of Scotland with the UK going Red.



There were 90 squadrons of Tornados, Jaguars and Harriers in that list. And you want "a bunch of more" Harriers when the Red RAF is already twice the size of the OTL AdA, Luftwaffe and AMI put together! The Red RAF has the forces to win the European leg of World War Three without any help from the Soviets and the other air forces of Eastern Europe.
Again, it's an entire strike direction or two that was not in NATO-UK's planning book.



Once again I don't understand why you don't understand.
It goes back to many UK electronics systems that were under development. "If we just tinker with it for a couple more years it'll be able to do so much more!" And then it's 15 years past when the system was supposed to be replaced and yall are still using the interim system.

Lightning radar and missiles.
Shipboard radar sets.

Just to name a couple examples.
 
Especially if the UK went Red in 1945, I doubt that they'd allow India to declare full independence.
Not happening even in this fantasy thread.

The Red UK doesn't have the power to do that even if the ALT-Atlee Government of TTL wanted to. Which it wouldn't.

Hugh Dalton who was Chancellor of the Exchequer from 27th July 1945 to 13th November 1947 IOTL said.
"If you are in a place where you are not wanted, and where you have not got the force, or perhaps the will, to quash those who don't want you, the only thing to do is come out"

Maybe it could prevent the Partition of India, but preventing the full independence of Burma, Ceylon and India in the second half of the 1940s. Not a chance.

IOTL
  • Burma became a Republic outside the Commonwealth on the day it became independent (4th January 1948).
  • India became a republic not long after independence (26th January 1950)
  • Pakistan didn’t become a republic (until 23rd March 1956) nearly 9 years after becoming independent.
    • And.
  • Ceylon, despite expelling British military forces from its soil in 1957 (in the aftermath of the Suez War) didn’t become the Republic of Sri Lanka until 22nd May 1972, over 24 years after it became independent (4th February 1948).
As this fantasy thread is about a communist UK that keeps the monarchy, more former colonies may retain the British monarch as their head of state, despite having left-wing governments with socialist or communist economic policies. Many of the former British colonies did have left-wing government that did pursue socialist or communist economic policies IOTL and some of them "kept the Queen" too. Therefore, it's not that far fetched for more of them to do that ITTL.

Burma went on day one (and didn't join the Commonwealth) IOTL and no change there ITTL. However, Ceylon, India (partitioned or not) and Pakistan (if partition still happens) retain the British monarch as their head of state beyond the 1980s. The end of the 1980s is where my interest in the thread ends, because that's when the OTL Cold War ended.

It would be funny-peculiar if the Indo-Pakistani Wars still happen and East Pakistan still becomes independent as Bangladesh, because there would be two and then three different armed forces that swore allegiance to the same person at war with one another. They'd have been sort of civil wars, which how the OTL Bangladeshi War of Independence would have been regarded in a TL where Pakistan won.

There'd be no permanent British military presence in the Indian subcontinent after the independence of Burma. However, there would be a British military presence in Ceylon for as long as the British Government wants it. This is because there's no Suez War in my version of the timeline so there's no expulsion of British forces in 1957.
 
Again, it's an entire strike direction or two that was not in NATO-UK's planning book.
I repeat that an air force that already has a two-to-one superiority over the combined air forces of France, Italy and West Germany doesn't need a bunch of extra squadrons. It can do what you want it to do with what it already has and then some.

Edit:

And as the Red UK is spending 20-25% of its GNP on its armed forces at the end of the 1980s, it's at the limit of what it can do anyway. Maybe it can buy the extra aircraft because economies of scale are reducing the unit costs. However, no more people can be conscripted into the Red RAF to provide the personnel for the extra squadrons.
It goes back to many UK electronics systems that were under development. "If we just tinker with it for a couple more years it'll be able to do so much more!" And then it's 15 years past when the system was supposed to be replaced and yall are still using the interim system.

Lightning radar and missiles.
Shipboard radar sets.

Just to name a couple examples.
I know that's what you meant. I don't understand how you don't understand what I meant. Which, I won't repeat.
 
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However, I suspect that rather than buying American they'd keep making the old British sonar until the new British sonar was ready. E.g. with radars the Type 965 radar was kept in production for 5-10 years too long and aught to have been replaced by a radar in the Type 1022 class about 5-10 years earlier. That's something that aught to happen ITTL. Then in turn we have Type 1022 replaced by Type 1030 in the first half of the 1980s.
Key word is "aught to"

It doesn't matter how much money you throw at the problem if the designer never stops tinkering with it! Yes, throwing 5x more money means you can throw 5x more people at the problem. Which is great if those extra bodies have a clue how that system works.

What happens when 3 of those new bodies don't know what the system is? You lose all forward progress while teaching the new bodies. If you're lucky the teacher gets a few insights on the system through the process of teaching.
 
A very quick and tentative design sketch for late 60s style of Krivak/Leander crossover, as a complementary frigate for Kara/Bristol:

1740656785106.png


1740656791172.png
The two gun turrets aft are replaced by an hangar, and it's the same as on original Leanders - either a gun turret, or an ASW/ASuW launcher mounted forward. Other systems are a towed array, two AA missile containers, two RBU-6000, and two torpedo mounts amidships that can also be replaced with missile launchers. Dimensions identical to Krivak, i.e. the ship is somewhat larger than the original Leander.

The hull shape is nowhere near finalized, as usual, but it should give a gist of overall appearance.
 
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I repeat that an air force that already has a two-to-one superiority over the combined air forces of France, Italy and West Germany doesn't need a bunch of extra squadrons. It can do what you want it to do with what it already has and then some.
Yes, I agree that your estimate numbers are the upper ceiling of technically possible force for any feasible maintenance even in this crazy timeline. The actual aircraft types and force composition may, of course, vary.
 
The final version of Batch 2 Kara/Bristol hybrid, a two-hangar anti-submarine ship with one Sea Dart:

1741214478943.png


1741214501910.png


Note the Cross Sword radars which are, as it turns out, quite similar to Type 909 in both size and appearance, so I replaced the massive Head Lights both here and on the Escort Cruiser with their models.


1741214747481.png


1741214938868.png


And here is a textured - but very far from finished, alas - preview for the small frigate. I thought the Leander style was a bit too outdated for late 60s, so I made her a little more modern hull.


1741215176673.png

1741215181857.png

---------------------

I do have a question, though.

That development of an anti-surface sea-skimming version of the Sea Dart.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/sea-skimming-sea-dart-t39442.html

Is it possible with Soviet cooperation (or simply given budget)? What could have been expected specifications? Because it seems a super-weapon of sorts, and with a lot of potential.
 
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I would imagine the Tu-28 (NATO codename Fiddler) would suit UK requirements for Air Defence Fighter over the Atlantic....
 
I would imagine the Tu-28 (NATO codename Fiddler) would suit UK requirements for Air Defence Fighter over the Atlantic....
Oh, we had that discussion a while ago -



And I even tried to implement a Tu-22M stuffed with S-300 missiles in the bomb bay (have to rework it to proper air-launched Sea Dart, now that I have that missile). It even works for very long range interception, but, of course, they are not suited for a dogfight.
 
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