ITTL the Moscow Imperative becomes the New York Imperative or the Washington Imperative. Can the V-bombers and Blue Streaks reach those targets from their bases in East Anglia? According to the Air Miles Calculator.
  • 1,458 miles from Norwich Airport to Moscow
  • 3,496 miles from Norwich Airport to New York, JFK
  • 3,695 miles from Norwich Airport to Washington
In my version of the timeline the V-bombers (and Short Sperrin) as we know them won't exist, because the specifications they're designed to meet will be for an aircraft that can reach targets in the USA rather than the USSR.
 
In my version of the timeline the V-bombers (and Short Sperrin) as we know them won't exist, because the specifications they're designed to meet will be for an aircraft that can reach targets in the USA rather than the USSR.
IOTL the RAF acquired some B-29s in 1950 as a stop-gap for the V-bombers. All other things being equal in my version of the TL it acquires some Tu-4s.
 
According to my mother the joke going around when the Soviets launched Sputnik 1 was that they got into space before the Americans because they had better Germans.
German scientists were a strategic commodity at the time while they lasted.

Victor B.2/SR.2 squadrons being retained until 1975-77 and presumably beyond.
So there is nothing wrong with them technically.

ITTL the Moscow Imperative becomes the New York Imperative or the Washington Imperative.
You forget about Paris. The French are the enemy. But even if the Victors can't reach US coast, they can be used as anti-ship strike force, controlling Iceland approach and be used for potential strikes on Iceland.

IOTL the RAF acquired some B-29s in 1950 as a stop-gap for the V-bombers. All other things being equal in my version of the TL it acquires some Tu-4s.
That's a literal repaint job! :)
 
However, the Soviets used the Il-76 as their AEW and tanker aircraft. The RAF may buy them instead of the VC.10 tankers and Nimrod AEW/Boeing sentry, which ITTL would replace the 12 Tu-126s it acquired instead of the Shackleton AEW.2.
I am inclined to think there would be a local production of Il-76 in any case, but the designer inside me tells that Tu-126 is very smoothly transitioning into VC.10 AWACS visually, in the sense of one coming into service after the other, but keeping the style

About the tankers I am not yet sure.
 
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German scientists were a strategic commodity at the time while they lasted.
If Derek Wood in "Project Cancelled" was correct the British didn't acquire any German scientists after the war. In my version of the timeline they do his "Scenario 1945" and obtain the services of as many as they can get.

Having said that one of the most famous British TV scientists was Professor Heinz Wolf who spoke with a German accent despite leaving Germany in 1939 when he was 11. IIRC from his "Desert Island Discs" his family escaped on the last boat out of Germany before war was declared. I've often wondered if he was the inspiration for Professor Squarkencluck in "Dangermouse".
 
I am inclined to think there would be a local production of Il-76 in any case, but the designer inside me tells that Tu-126 is very smoothly transitioning into VC.10 AWACS visually.

About the tankers I am not yet sure.
FWIW the VC.10 was before the Il-76 so if anything it will be the other way around. So the Il-76 really will be a copy of the VC.10.

Edit: For Il-76 read Il-62.
 
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If Derek Wood in "Project Cancelled" was correct the British didn't acquire any German scientists after the war. In my version of the timeline they do his "Scenario 1945" and obtain the services of as many as they can get.
Fleming was literally hunting German scientists for the last year of the war. You want to say they didn't catch even one?
 
Yes. I do.
Then of course. Not that they differ much (in game terms I can - and fully intend to - use one model for the other without changes, and it will hardly be noticeable - but I do like VC10 canopy shape, it's sleeker)
 
IOTL the Belfast was intended to enter service in 1964 and I think the RAF wouldn't wait until 1969 for the An-22, but ITTL the Belfast would have been a stop-gap for 33 An-22s to replace the Britannias from 1970 and the Belfasts by 1975.

That sounds good.

FWIW the RAF didn't reduce the number of Belfasts in favour of the smaller C-130. The RAF planned to buy 10 Belfasts all along and the C-130K (and HS.681) were to replace the Hastings, Beverley and some of the Argossies. You may be referring to Shorts tooling up for a production run of 30 aircraft, but that was to be 10 for the RAF plus 20 sold to British airlines or exported.

Ah - I had thought the extra 20 were for the RAF - thanks for the correction.

Yes. Instead of the SC.5/45 with "C-141 wing" of OTL and RB.178 or RB.211 engines.

Or the original Il-76 is built with a cargo bay with the width and height of the Belfast ITTL. Or is that effectively what you're saying?

The first was my idea - but I like the idea of just enlarging the fuselage of the Il-76 as well (or instead of). That would get an even more-capable Il-76MF from the start.
 
In my version of the timeline the V-bombers (and Short Sperrin) as we know them won't exist, because the specifications they're designed to meet will be for an aircraft that can reach targets in the USA rather than the USSR.

If the point-of-departure is the Suez Crisis (Oct 29, 1956 – Nov 7, 1956) as has been stated up-thread, then at least the Sperrin & Valiant would exist.

The Sperrin came from the 1948 modification of the original B.14/46 spec of 1947 to cover a "fall-back" jet bomber in case none of the 3 "advanced jet bombers" (the 3 Vs) designed to fill the B.36/46 worked out. The first Sperrin prototype's maiden fight was 10 August 1951, and the second prototype's maiden fight was 12 August 1952.

Valiant's first prototype's maiden flight was 18 May 1951, the second's was 11 April 1952, and the third, which was the B.2 prototype, first flew on 5 September 1953. Valiant B.1 entered service on 8 February 1955 (with delivery of the first production B.1 to the RAF), and the 108th (and last) was delivered in September 1957. This should still be on - to provide a heavier bomber for European & North African operations than Canberra.

Vulcan was not far behind, with the first prototype's first flight on 30 August 1952, with RAF deliveries to No. 30 OCU in July 1956.

Victor's first prototype's first flight was 24 December 1952, with RAF deliveries to No. 232 OCU in "late 1957".


With the late 1956 POD Victor would be cancelled, and Vulcan might well be limited to B.1 standard, but not cancelled outright.


However, UK knowledge/talent being added to USSR's should allow for development of a longer-range jet bomber than the USSR ever had - either a 3rd main version of the Myasishchev M-4 (first flight 20 January 1953, 32 built) [improved 3M first flight 27 March 1956, 74 built for Naval Aviation] or a completely new aircraft.
 
If the point-of-departure is the Suez Crisis (Oct 29, 1956 – Nov 7, 1956) as has been stated up-thread, then at least the Sperrin & Valiant would exist.

The Sperrin came from the 1948 modification of the original B.14/46 spec of 1947 to cover a "fall-back" jet bomber in case none of the 3 "advanced jet bombers" (the 3 Vs) designed to fill the B.36/46 worked out. The first Sperrin prototype's maiden fight was 10 August 1951, and the second prototype's maiden fight was 12 August 1952.

Valiant's first prototype's maiden flight was 18 May 1951, the second's was 11 April 1952, and the third, which was the B.2 prototype, first flew on 5 September 1953. Valiant B.1 entered service on 8 February 1955 (with delivery of the first production B.1 to the RAF), and the 108th (and last) was delivered in September 1957. This should still be on - to provide a heavier bomber for European & North African operations than Canberra.

Vulcan was not far behind, with the first prototype's first flight on 30 August 1952, with RAF deliveries to No. 30 OCU in July 1956.

Victor's first prototype's first flight was 24 December 1952, with RAF deliveries to No. 232 OCU in "late 1957".


With the late 1956 POD Victor would be cancelled, and Vulcan might well be limited to B.1 standard, but not cancelled outright.
Noted. In the main timeline (started by @Martes) the POD is the Suez Crisis. However, in my version of the timeline the POD is the 1945 General Election which is won by a very left wing Labour Party. That's why I think that in my version we won't have the Sperrin, Valiant, Victor & Vulcan as we know them.
However, UK knowledge/talent being added to USSR's should allow for development of a longer-range jet bomber than the USSR ever had - either a 3rd main version of the Myasishchev M-4 (first flight 20 January 1953, 32 built) [improved 3M first flight 27 March 1956, 74 built for Naval Aviation] or a completely new aircraft.
I agree. I need to do some revision on Soviet strategic bombers of the 1950s. The only others that I know of are the Tu-16 and Tu-95. What would UK knowledge/talent being added to them do?

Then there's the Il-28 light bomber. Do the British build that under licence (with Avon engines) instead of the Canberra or do the Soviets build it and the Avon under licence?
 
Seeing how we pivoted towards aircraft - it's a bit ironic, because I quickly realized that after I spent a couple of weeks working on the escort cruiser model, what I see on the screen 99% of the time are Harriers and endless sea.

So let's talk of ships a little as well.

When I began thinking about all this I couldn't change the ship models, only replacing some of the moving parts, so the first conversions were simply repaints with artillery changed to mark 8 turret that was, thankfully, included in the game resources.

Now that I can change the meshes, I can think about more complicated hybrid designs.

The most "un-British" design that I used is the 1155 Udaloy large anti-submarine ship. I intended them to replace the Type 22 frigates, and I like the design, the hull being very efficient and optimized, but their appearance is really very uniquely Soviet.

One option I thought of was to enclose the stern, making the hull completely flush-decked, and maybe replace the funnels with one similar to Kara. That's the easy way.

Another possibility is to use one of the Kara conversion projects that intended to make her identical in capabilities (note that I replaced the B turret with VLS launcher):

1739126800007.png
and make a dedicated ASW version on the same hull. It's a bit more tricky, but still possible.
 
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Part of Post 134.
Seeing how we pivoted towards aircraft - it's a bit ironic, because I quickly realized that after I spent a couple of weeks working on the escort cruiser model, what I see on the screen 99% of the time are Harriers and endless sea.
I suggest that you start threads for the Warsaw Pact British Army, Royal Air Force and Civil Aviation.
 
Okay, now that army stuff is officially included, I'll come back to the EM2 and PK/PKM.

Hrm. So the EM2 was removed from service before the Suez Crisis. Well before, in fact, in 1951.

The FN MAG or GPMG to the Brits was adopted in 1958, that's 2 years after. So there might have been a few running around for trials, but not enough to equip the Army. And of course, various belt-fed Bren guns were running around, but only in trials numbers.

The FAL was adopted in 1954, so there were factories in the UK tooled up to produce 7.62x51 ammo by then.


=====================

Okay, the only way to get EM2s in 7.62x39 is to go with a Socialist election win in 1945.

I think it'd be unlikely for the Soviets to adopt the .280 British, even as their MG cartridge, because they lacked the industry base to make lots of other calibers. 7.62x25mm SMGs existed instead of 9mm because you could take a shot out rifle or MG barrel and chop it into 10" lengths for the SMG barrels. Same reason the 7.62x39mm M43 cartridge exists.

The UK was still trying to stick to one small-arms caliber for both rifles and MGs, while the Soviets had accepted an intermediate cartridge for infantry rifles but a full power rifle cartridge for MGs in 1943.

The real hope for the Soviets would be for the UK to help make tooling to make a rimless 7.62x54 case easily. One of the major issues for Soviet GPMGs like the PKs is that they have to use a pull-out belt design instead of a push-through. Push-through belts are smaller and lighter, and they allow a receiver to be smaller and lighter.
 
This seems a fairly pointless and prolonged thought experiment with no basis in observable reality, designed to produce pretty graphics for a computer game.

This section "Alternative History and Future Speculation" is primarily intended for discussions about how different circumstances could have, or could in the future, affect what projects get built or cancelled. It is not intended as a general purpose "Alternative History" forum to discuss any conceivable topic. Try to avoid topics likely to provoke controversy or disputes.
 
This seems a fairly pointless and prolonged thought experiment with no basis in observable reality, designed to produce pretty graphics for a computer game.
Please allow me to object.

1.
In some sense my primary "enemy" in envisioning this setting is the 1966 Defense Review, which I wanted to circumvent and reverse as much as possible.
The main limiting factor of this design review was the alliance with the US, and that had to be replaced. And as I said somewhere above it's not that there were much options. That's the premise. What I wanted to dig out were naval and strategic considerations that were slashed during and after this review and explore options to keep Britain a global naval power.

2. I highly doubt it's less realistic than France battling with Argentina or any other of the adjacent threads.

3. Game graphics, as I also said, are here for the purpose of illustration and simulation. It's not my product or something, but I can use the game to experiment with tactical concepts (like the interceptor-armed heavy bomber we devised here) and then tell how it works.

4. I came here to talk about ship design and aircraft of the period, but if somebody wants to add rifles or other technologies, I am not sure it's so problematic. If indeed it is and you consider it improper, the scope can be limited and reverted to purely matters of ships and aviation.
 
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Oh, doubtless many to most of the posts here don't really adhere to the intended purpose of this section. This topic in particular is just very busy with lots of posts and attracted some negative reports from other users which got me to look at it - It try to stay well away in general.

Not a huge ship fan but largely just seems like a whatifmodellers.com topic of "lets paint this Soviet ship in RN colours".
 
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Would it be all right to revert the scope and be a bit more explicit about it? It may be somewhat difficult to steer, but I do try.
After all, there were good practical ideas here, especially about fleet composition and scale, and mentioned a lot of aircraft concepts I never heard about.
 
Not a huge ship fan but largely just seems like a whatifmodellers.com topic of "lets paint this Soviet ship in RN colours".
Unfortunately that's the first time I see a mention of that address, but I doubt I would have got the same information there that I was able to get here concerning fleet development programmes.

Searches for CVA-01 or other ships that fell to 1966 review brought me either to shipbucket (with their own format) or here.
 
There's some ship guys there, but yes, there are some very knowledgeable people here. Some in all three places.

Carry on then.
 
I posted it over on another modeling forum, but they know nothing about naval design and development and can only appreciate the pictures, unfortunately.

That's the problem with such projects - althistory forum dwellers generally lack knowledge of technical details, modelling show no interest in design process, gaming are concerned only with gameplay, technical look down on althistory experiments

It's the curse of such cross-disciplinary projects, I am afraid.

Carry on then.
Thanks :)

I will try to keep this within feasible limits, and I specifically intend not to cross the 1990 threshold.
 
This seems a fairly pointless and prolonged thought experiment with no basis in observable reality, designed to produce pretty graphics for a computer game.
I agree. However, it's also highly addictive. Which is why I've contributed more to the thread than I intended.
 
However, it's also highly addictive.
Oh, yes. No idea why, but it definitely is.

Which is why I've contributed more to the thread than I intended.
For which I am eternally grateful :)

----------------------------------------

Some graphics to dispel the gloom a little.

One option I thought of was to enclose the stern, making the hull completely flush-decked, and maybe replace the funnels with one similar to Kara. That's the easy way.

This is how this variant may look - flush-decked hull, single large funnel, masts taken from County class to replace those strange tripods.

1739190269043.png


And I remember that somewhere - either in Brown or one of the dedicated submarine books it was mentioned that the Resolution-class SSBN was conceived as ends of Valiant with an inserted central missile section from a US SSBN.

Following this logic, I attached the forward end of the Valiant to the Victor-3:

1739190514964.png
And frankly I do like the resulting boat (I left the textures so that different parts would be visible)

Unfortunately, I can't do the same with Oscar. She's too wide and I am not sure how they would have formed the entry shape.
 
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And I remember that somewhere - either in Brown or one of the dedicated submarine books it was mentioned that the Resolution-class SSBN was conceived as ends of Valiant with an inserted central missile section from a US SSBN.
It's also what the US did for the George Washington class boats, the first 5 SSBNs. They took a Skipjack-class and inserted a missile compartment.

The following classes were dedicated SSBNs, so they had a much smaller torpedo room, roughly half the stored weapons.


Following this logic, I attached the forward end of the Valiant to the Victor-3:

And frankly I do like the resulting boat (I left the textures so that different parts would be visible)
That is definitely an interesting shape!

Operationally, though, the more important half would have been the UK engineroom, or at least the UK silencing measures. Soviet sensors were ... not bad, but the own-ship's noise was so bad they could not detect an American or British sub at very close range. So close that clear pictures of the underside of the hull could be taken via periscope.


Unfortunately, I can't do the same with Oscar. She's too wide and I am not sure how they would have formed the entry shape.
That would require some serious work to adapt the UK bow shape onto the Oscar hull...

Hrm... Even using the Vanguard bow makes an 18ft difference in beam, frack. I'd say use the Vanguard bow and put a wedge into it, if you have that much control over the models. It may be a bit taller than the Oscar, however, if so you'd need to take a wedge out of the sides as well as adding a wedge to the top and bottom.
 
Even using the Vanguard bow makes an 18ft difference in beam, frack. I'd say use the Vanguard bow and put a wedge into it, if you have that much control over the models.
On the Victor it fits like a glove with only a very little difference around the waterline that has to be adjusted. But I can do almost anything with the models, given I understand how it should look.

The Oscar is practically two parallel tubes stacked side by side.
I can rescale the bow (taking either Vanguard's model or Trafalgar, I am lucky to have both) to fit vertically, than slice it in half and connect it with straight transverse section (and turn it into an arc afterwards), although it would still be a bit awkward.

If we consider bioconvergence, the Soviets seem (judging by the shapes) to have used a sperm whale as their base model, while British head is closer to harbour porpoise or the like. Can try looking at other whales to see if anything fits, crazy at it may sound.

Operationally, though, the more important half would have been the UK engineroom, or at least the UK silencing measures.
Absolutely no problem setting this up, I'll keep that in mind.
 
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I can rescale the bow (taking either Vanguard's model or Trafalgar, I am lucky to have both) to fit vertically, than slice it in half and connect it with straight transverse section (and turn it into an arc afterwards), although it would still be a bit awkward.
Or maybe not so awkward.

I took the Trafalgar's fore section and... just don't ask me what I did with it :)
It results in slightly longer hull, but looks almost natural.

Clean version would require a lot of work, of course.
 
It results in slightly longer hull, but looks almost natural.
Wow! Was not expecting that to work so well!


Clean version would require a lot of work, of course.
If you continue working on the model, I'd extend the hard lines on the bow all the way aft, like on the Astutes. Not sure how much work that'd be, you'd have to reshape the missile hatches and a lot of the Oscar outer hull...

At least the upper surfaces should have completely flat "panes" all the way aft, so you might need to add more width to the center of the bow section to get the upper lines closer to the outboard edge of the missile hatches, which avoids needing to move the bow planes of the Oscar. Or doing the Vanguard "shrug" location of bow planes.
 
Wow! Was not expecting that to work so well!
Me neither :)

Blending both shapes wasn't anywhere near easy, because Oscar's cross section is almost rectangular with rounded edges, but now I really like what I see.

I desperately want to avoid touching anything near moving parts, because it's a tremendous headache to reconfig them (and that's why I changed only the section beyond bow planes). Astutes are too new, it's more "what would have been developed in late 70s". I will think of something.

Victor, as much more straightforward conversion, would go first anyway.
 
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Okay, looks like the published pictures of the Trafalgar class do NOT continue those hard lines down the hull, so I think you can justifiably skip those on the Oscar conversion.

And I guess even Astute didn't carry those lines all the way aft, at least not in her Commissioning pictures. So I think it's safe to disregard that idea for the Oscars. However. If you get to Oscar-successors and Victor/Trafalgar successors, the big flat panels would start showing up.
 
If you get to Oscar-successors and Victor/Trafalgar successors, the big flat panels would start showing up.
Yes, that's what I meant that Astutes and are too modern.

There is also a 1960s SSBN to consider.
Probably this would be the Yankee, given the Resolution treatment.
And as a 70s follow-up I should probably do the same with Delta-III, as an alternative to the whole Polaris story.

All 4 boats to scale:

1739262283616.png 1739262297716.png
 
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Now that I have a bit clearer picture of the timeline, especially the 60s, thanks to the submarines, some additional notes:

Destroyers:

- County class is still a go. Probably even in greater numbers than originally. The main difference will be replacement of Sea Slug with large aft 4-missile launcher for SS-N-3 (P-5), giving them long range offensive capability (total 8 missiles), while the air defense SA-N-1 will replace the B-turret, or two systems in non-helicopter initial variant, or one with 2 turrets forward. They will probably be heavily refitted about 75-80, with new radars, replacing SA-N-1 with Sea Dart, adding CIWS, and likely replacing the large anti-ship missile launcher with aft hangar.

- Type 82 is superseded by Kara-derived Type 84, which features much of the same capabilities, but in greater quantity. Will probably have 2 Sea Dart launchers or something very close to it.

- Follow on Type 44, based on Kresta, replaces Type 42.

- Possible construction of Type 43 large, based on dimensions of Slava, still under consideration.

Frigates:

- Type 12 will also be built, and will also feature a mix of configurations. Ikara will be replaced by RPK, Exosets by either Moskit or Harpoon-like Uran (which is more probably, as Moskit is very large and heavy for their narrow hulls).

- Type 21 will be replaced by a Krivak-based design, that still has to be determined.

- Type 22 and prospective Type 23 are replaced by a very large anti-submarine ship derived from 1155 (see several posts above)

Light carriers:

Since it's totally impossible to hold Canada in this scenario, the Powerful is impounded, and it's likely that Canada retains the Magnificent. It is also unlikely that in the turbulent post-split period the navy will go through with Brazil and Argentina sales, so there is a net surplus of 3 carriers.

There is an option to convert some of those light carriers to missile cruisers (see Friedman), carrying either SS-N-3 or SS-N-12 launchers, and I am still not sure if this would or would not be considered viable from tactical or strategic point of view.

Otherwise I would consider all of them, Colossus and Centaur class, gradually converted to helicopter commando and later Harrier carriers, because you can't get the escort cruisers everywhere at once.

Quite ironically, by late 70's it would be necessary to consider their replacement and this would inevitably bring the Invincible class (or something very similar) as a small economic means of delivering air support for global operations.

Heavy carriers:

CVA-01 built as full-scale CATOBAR carriers, probably nuclear, carrying conventional air group. 3, possibly 4 ships.

Ark Royal, Eagle and Victorious get full jet conversion and soldier on until ~1980. Whatever replaces them won't be ready until 1990, and that's too far future.

Questions:

Lynx with coaxial rotors - yes/no?
Light carriers to missile cruisers conversion - yes/no? If yes, reversible or deep?
Were there any known projects for heavy bombers after Victor?
Were there any known projects of conventional fighter/attack jets prior to the Tornado and apart from Harrier development?
 
Lynx with coaxial rotors - yes/no?
Well, Kamov was strictly a naval helicopter maker, didn't start to make Army helos until the Ka50.

I think that one would come down to a roll of the dice.


Light carriers to missile cruisers conversion - yes/no? If yes, reversible or deep?
I don't have a good answer for that. If done I suspect they'd be reversible.


Were there any known projects for heavy bombers after Victor?
Pedant note: the V bombers were considered Medium Bombers by the RAF, not Heavy. And IIRC the difference was range, not bombload.

Once nuclear bombs lighter than 5000lbs were possible, France was reachable with A-4s or equivalent aircraft, while Washington and New York would need much longer range to reach. So I'd expect either Tu95s or Tu160s for the UK, maybe some Tu22Ms.


Were there any known projects of conventional fighter/attack jets prior to the Tornado and apart from Harrier development?
The AFVG predated Tornado. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC/Dassault_AFVG
Also, SEPECAT Jaguar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
 
Well, Kamov was strictly a naval helicopter maker, didn't start to make Army helos until the Ka50.

I think that one would come down to a roll of the dice.
I thought of it as a possible "fast shipboard helicopter", using Lynx fuselage and replacing the tail and the rotors, getting a kind of a proto-Ka-50 sans the armor protection, and as a British development initiative (because they will get their hands on Ka-25/Ka-27 anyway). Could probably have the same speed and aerobatic properties, but be more compact -> require less hangar length. I mean I like the idea, but I need some justification :)

I don't have a good answer for that. If done I suspect they'd be reversible.
Agreed here. Interesting that they can have a number of configurations (i.e. all-missile, combination of missiles forward + angled deck, full carrier) and these may change from refit to refit, especially during the 60-s, while the large carriers and the escort cruisers are still under construction, but probably extending until 80s, as I generally see a reluctance to part with working units until their resource is completely exhausted.

So I'd expect either Tu95s or Tu160s for the UK, maybe some Tu22Ms.
That's obvious, I just wanted to make sure I haven't missed a long range and crazy project gathering dust somewhere. Otherwise it's pretty straightforward.

That's a clear path to UK-DDR Su-24 :)

Jaguar is more curious, but would it be needed if 1154 is produced and there is continued and extensive development of the Harrier line?

---------------------

Running over those lists I came to a strange realization that this is a finite experiment, I mean that in any case east-west technology converges over time and whatever happens to the eastern bloc, Britain will arrive to the end of the century with more units, but ultimately would produce many ships similar to IRL (in addition to listed here), if for somewhat different reasons, and certainly in different quantities. So we'll see the Invincibles, Type 45's (with much more VLS cells!), Ocean-class commando ships, maybe even the real, (but nuclear) QE design as a "future secondary carrier" and successor to the old Ark Royal. But it does mean preservation of industrial base in perspective.

---------------------

Ah, @Scott Kenny, almost forgot - do I replace the propellers with British ones on the submarines?
 
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Jaguar is not likely to happen with Mig-23/Mig-27 being an option. But the trainer requirement is still there. What replaces Eurofighter? Su-27 version or a British design? Im guessing Mig-31s as Tornado ADV replacements?

I see lots of Tu-95/142s around, some Tu-22Ms, but no Tu-160s.
 
What replaces Eurofighter? Su-27 version or a British design?
That is a complex question, which somewhat depends on how you consider the Eurofighter.

As something like pan-bloc project, say UK-DDR-CSK-USSR, it would likely be something similar to Su-27.

Since the Navy retains quite extensive CATOBAR capability, there would be a question of replacing the Mig-23A at some point, and that would, probably, raise a heated discussion whether the large carriers should continue to carry conventional fighters or switch all aircraft carriers, large and small, to P.1154 and potentially P.1216 in some implementation or other.

RAF would prefer Su-27, I imagine, as to the Navy, they probably would end up with both.

Jaguar, in turn, may be independently developed by France.

Im guessing Mig-31s as Tornado ADV replacements?
Mig-31 would likely succeed Mig-25, should be pretty straightforward transition. Tornado is mostly replaced by Su-24, as I see it.

I see lots of Tu-95/142s around, some Tu-22Ms, but no Tu-160s.

Since there would be, likely, a merge between the British side of the Concorde project and Tu-144, it should, I assume, lead to very close cooperation on the Tu-160 (RR engines?). And RAF is greedy. Even IRL, during the same 1966 review they boasted they could provide a global cover. They would want 160. The question, of course, whether they would get it, but I don't really see why not.
 
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One of the considerations in this scenario is that the economic asymmetry between the UK and USSR is not so extreme as that between the UK and USA, while the UK remains an independent power with its own defence industrial base.

So while there'd certainly be some cross-pollination, and the changed strategic situation would influence a lot, the UK would likely continue to use UK-developed kit to a large extent. And that's not particularly novel - OTL's Eastern bloc powers often used their own equipment where they had existing industrial capability, though it had to fit into Warsaw Pact doctrine.

With the UK as a maritime power in a way that the USSR just wasn't, I expect you'd see the UK leading Warsaw Pact naval thought to a fairly large extent. The UK wouldn't buy in Soviet weapons systems and adopt its doctrine when it had its own weapons systems and established doctrine. I see no reason, for example, why the UK would buy S-300 missiles or Kamov helicopters when it has Sea Dart and Lynx.

In some cases, yes, buying Soviet kit makes sense. Anti-ship missiles and long-range bombers, for example. Depending on the PoD, the nuclear weapons capability would look very different - and I don't think it's at all clear that the USSR would agree to an equivalent of the Polaris Sales Agreement, which has huge effects.

In strategic terms, I suspect a Warsaw Pact-aligned UK has something like the following priorities:
  • Nuclear deterrence against NATO, particularly the United States
  • Protecting trade, particularly to ensure maintenance of food supplies
  • Protection of the British Isles from attack or invasion
  • Protection of the North-West Flank of the Warsaw Pact from seaborne and airborne attack
  • Global power projection to promote national and Pact interests
Those are similar to OTL's strategic goals, but obviously impacted by the changed relationship with the USA and USSR. It's probably going to dictate developing an ability to shut down Western European naval and air bases, which will probably require something resembling Soviet long-range aviation. Buying in Soviet bombers makes sense here.

Protecting the sea lanes against the USN will require serious capability. That land-based long-range aviation will form a component of it. So will submarines (and probably quite a lot of them) - it's open to speculation whether they'd use the VM-A plant as a baseline, similar to what was done with the S5W, or develop a domestic plant. If the former, the first British nuclear submarine probably has the OTL DREADNOUGHT front end with Project 627-derived machinery. Heavy anti-ship missiles to counter the American surface fleet will probably come from the USSR, though the UK might try to develop its own. I'm guessing big-deck carriers will show up too, partly for power projection and partly to take the offensive to the United States.

I'd expect the British Army is a distinctly third-string force, primarily for home defence and some expeditionary operations. The UK's value as an unsinkable aircraft carrier probably far outweighs however many divisions it can supply. The Army might well be equipped along Soviet lines to save resources for the Navy and Air Force.

Exactly how the UK squares Warsaw Pact anti-imperialism with its remaining Empire is an interesting question. 'Communism with British characteristics' may look quite odd to everyone. And the Northern Ireland situation could get very unpleasant indeed, in any number of ways.

The dynamics of the Warsaw Pact with a second nuclear power pursuing an independent (but aligned) foreign policy would be very interesting. I don't think Moscow would be at all happy about it. But nor was Washington, at times.
 
One of the considerations in this scenario is that the economic asymmetry between the UK and USSR is not so extreme as that between the UK and USA, while the UK remains an independent power with its own defence industrial base.
Oh, yes.

I am extremely thankful for your post, as it reflects on many points I thought about. It will take me some time to process it, though, as I have a lot of comments, but I will try to assemble them gradually.

I consider the ideal POD as post-Suez period, circa 1957.

I see no reason, for example, why the UK would buy S-300 missiles or Kamov helicopters when it has Sea Dart and Lynx.

As a rule of a thumb, I considered that every item that had been imported from the US should be replaced by a Soviet equivalent, so Kamov initally simply replaced the Sea King. Mi-8/Mi-14 would probably also be imported, as something has to replace the Wessex.

As to Lynx there are also some ideas -
using Lynx fuselage and replacing the tail and the rotors, getting a kind of a proto-Ka-50 sans the armor protection, and as a British development initiative (because they will get their hands on Ka-25/Ka-27 anyway).

And all the ship projects should have been considerably reviewed anyway to address the problem of chronic undersizing and under-armament of real RN ships after the County class. Initially, when I had no possibility to edit the models I had to wriggle around with repaints, but currently many things can be, one by one, replaced by projects of original British development, like the Sea Dart. Moreover, I can now technically import the Sea Dart model and install it on the ships, and I would hopefully do it once I finish the Victor-3/Valiant hybrid, but the questions of comparison of Sea Cat to SA-N-4, Sea Wolf to SA-N-9 and introduction of SA-N-7 (or equivalent) as an additional medium range system are still open.

With the UK as a maritime power in a way that the USSR just wasn't, I expect you'd see the UK leading Warsaw Pact naval thought to a fairly large extent.
100%. I actually thought that Khruschev would be very content to delegate the whole naval component to Britain and scale down the blue water navy even more, with the exception of the submarine fleet.

It may well be that the only Kara-like ships would be British in this timeline.

The UK wouldn't buy in Soviet weapons systems and adopt its doctrine when it had its own weapons systems and established doctrine.
Only from the perspective of "we have a whole new catalog of shiny toys, get your choice, boys". :)

But Britain would have to develop a new doctrine with a very specific enemy and war scenarios in mind.

In some cases, yes, buying Soviet kit makes sense. Anti-ship missiles and long-range bombers, for example.

The long range anti-ship missiles would be introduced into the RN inventory for the first time as SS-N-3 for the County class

County class is still a go. Probably even in greater numbers than originally. The main difference will be replacement of Sea Slug with large aft 4-missile launcher for SS-N-3 (P-5), giving them long range offensive capability (total 8 missiles)

and possibly for temporary mounts on light carriers, and it would be likely that the subsequent development of such missiles may be joint or there could be localized British projects. But this should have the most serious impact on tactics and deployment planning, and would, I think, bring about a British variant of an Oscar-class submarine.

Depending on the PoD, the nuclear weapons capability would look very different - and I don't think it's at all clear that the USSR would agree to an equivalent of the Polaris Sales Agreement, which has huge effects.
I almost automatically considered that some kind of mirroring of the Polaris agreement should take place, but that has to be ironed out.
 
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