Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III

[Tailspin Turtle]

Came across while researching 1121 a 1957 Flight International reference to Bristol and de Havilland pushing for Olympus and Gyron to be installed on the F8U-3.

I have found a one or two-sentence reference in the P&W log to a Vought F8U-3 design study with the J58 but nothing in the Vought archives yet on it or the Brit engines. Was the 30,000-lb Olympus part of the Wright J67 license? The Gyron was the right size but unless the Brits were going to buy the F8U-3, it would have had to be a license deal as well. There was an attempt in 1959, and maybe somewhat earlier, to sell the F8U-3 to the Canadians...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In 1953 GE were talking to de Havilland about licensing the Gyron; in fact from government papers I've seen at the National Archives this was a major factor in forcing the UK government to stump up some development money for it. I guess it would have represented a GE direct rival to the J57, and in the beginning of the 1950s US engine makers were still in the early stages of developing indigenous engines equal to (or superior to) UK engine technology. By the late 1950s, the window of opportunity was mostly closed.

The Olympus /J67 story as I understand it was that Curtiss-Wright licensed the original Olympus 100 design, but required 13,500lb thrust from it for the USAF spec, which Bristol considered slightly beyond the 100's growth potential at the time the license was agreed (it wasn't). Curtiss-Wright therefore embarked on a bold redesign of the Olympus as J67, desite their lack of experience and the disinterest of Chief Engineer Bill Lundquist (not a believer in jets). Bristol worked on the improved Olympus 6 which would give 15,000lb+ (21,680lbs with afterburning model), and kept in touch with Curtiss-Wright where the J67 was getting heavier and heavier. Sir Stanley Hooker says in his autobiography he regrets not talking Hurley and Lundquist at Curtiss into scrapping their J67 in favour of the Bristol Olympus 6 design, which was greatly superior. Bristol faced their own difficulty with production, and failed to produce the 19 Olympus engines that Curtiss ordered for their development program at Woodridge. It is possible that the manufacturing power of Curtiss allied to design team of Bristol could have made a worthwhile competitor to GE and P&W. The first version that would be largely comparable to J75 would be Olympus 21 (301) which was 20,000lb dry and 30,000lb afterburning but didn't first run until 1959.

J-58 F8U-3 studies were V-418/V-419 I believe. There's also the V-400 to find, which is a pre-F8U-3 advanced Crusader study (F8U-3 being the V-401).

 

[sferrin]

Came across while researching 1121 a 1957 Flight International reference to Bristol and de Havilland pushing for Olympus and Gyron to be installed on the F8U-3.

I have found a one or two-sentence reference in the P&W log to a Vought F8U-3 design study with the J58 but nothing in the Vought archives yet on it or the Brit engines. Was the 30,000-lb Olympus part of the Wright J67 license? The Gyron was the right size but unless the Brits were going to buy the F8U-3, it would have had to be a license deal as well. There was an attempt in 1959, and maybe somewhat earlier, to sell the F8U-3 to the Canadians...

Wings of Fame also mentions they looked at a rocket engine to go with the turbojet.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Wings of Fame also mentions they looked at a rocket engine to go with the turbojet.

Thanks for the thought. I've got pretty good coverage of the rocket alternative, F8U-3F. It didn't fly with the rocket and probably wouldn't have been produced. (McDonnell proposed rocket augmentation for the F4H and that didn't happen either.) The increase in acceleration and altitude was deemed not worth the loss in endurance and the handling/safety problems with large quantities of hydrogen peroxide.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

J-58 F8U-3 studies were V-418/V-419 I believe. There's also the V-400 to find, which is a pre-F8U-3 advanced Crusader study (F8U-3 being the V-401).

Thanks for the reminder. I've looked for them in the Vought archives without success but haven't given up. I did find a one sentence reference to an early J75/Crusader study with no model number mentioned that is probably the V-400,.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Paul R. Matt United States Navy and Marine Corps Fighters 1918-1962

Pretty old book, this one (1962)

Nice pic of the FJ-4F with the Rocketdyne AR-1 rocket engine intended for the F8U-3.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Did the Super Crusader have any Air-to-Ground Capability? How did it's combat radius compare to the F4H-1/F-4B?


KJ Lesnick

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

AFAIK, no, and this was one of the reasons the F4H-1 won. I suppose it could have grown wing pylons if necessary.

I seem to recall it had notably longer range than the F-4 on internal fuel.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Vought proposed an external stores capability with two different sets of hard points - the Sidewinder mounts or a pair of mounts located on the lower fuselage ahead of the main landing gear wells. (It appears that since the latter would preclude the belly-mounted speed brake, an alternative location was evaluated in flight test - petal-type brakes on the tail cone like the F-105's). At the moment I don't know why wing pylons weren't proposed since they eventually added to the Crusader I/II. Perhaps they weren't acceptable due to the presence of the ventral fins.

The only F8U-3 data on performance that I have so far is from Vought proposals and a Navy comparative evaluation of the F4H and F8U-3 dated 27 February 1958. Basically, as Overscan remembers, the F8U-3 had the same range on internal fuel as the F4H-1 had on internal fuel plus a 600-gallon external tank.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

United States Naval Aviation 1910–1995 by Roy A. Grossnick was surprisingly uninteresting.

15 September [1958] Lieutenant William P. Lawrence became the first Naval Aviator to fly at twice the speed of sound in a fleet-type aircraft, F8U-3 Crusader. Lawrence, the project officer, was on an evaluation flight at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Whether there were two XF4Hs at Edwards for the fly-off (there were two XF8U-3s)

Francis K Mason (Phantom: Legend in its own time) says the first XF4H (142259) went to Edwards for the flyoff. The second XF4H-1 (Bu.No. 142260) didn't have its first flight until October 1958; that's too late surely?

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Whether there were two XF4Hs at Edwards for the fly-off (there were two XF8U-3s)

Francis K Mason (Phantom: Legend in its own time) says the first XF4H (142259) went to Edwards for the flyoff. The second XF4H-1 (Bu.No. 142260) didn't have its first flight until October 1958; that's too late surely?

Not necessarily. The second XF8U-3 flew on 27 September. Joe Angelone flew it two days later and shortly after, on its third third flight, ferried it to Edwards where it was flown at least a few times by the Navy pilots. The NPE was in two parts, beginning in mid-September and ending in mid to late-November, with a four or five week break in October.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The Mason book has photos of 142259 from April, being painted, May 22 (taxi trials), May 27 landing after first flight, June 5 (on ground), June 22 (airborne), then 142260 in March 1959. Typical..

He says 142259 was returned to St Louis in October at the time of the first flight of 142260 and they both completed a set of trials but doesn't mention a return to Edwards for either.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nice XF4H in flight footage youtube vid

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErysPRLKYlw

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Flight Research at Ames: Fifty-Seven Years of Development and Validation of Aeronautical Technology - NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)

This NASA special publication presents a general overview of the flight research that has been conducted at Ames Research Center over the last 57 years. Icing research, transonic model testing, aerodynamics, variable stability aircraft, boundary layer control, short takeoff and landing (STOL)...

history.nasa.gov

AIRCRAFT USED FOR FLYING QUALITIES, STABILITY AND CONTROL, AND PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS [NASA Ames]

F8U-3 (Bu. No. 147085)

Arrived: June 18, 1959
Departed: August 15, 1960

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Flight Research at Ames: Fifty-Seven Years of Development and Validation of Aeronautical Technology - NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)

This NASA special publication presents a general overview of the flight research that has been conducted at Ames Research Center over the last 57 years. Icing research, transonic model testing, aerodynamics, variable stability aircraft, boundary layer control, short takeoff and landing (STOL)...

history.nasa.gov

AIRCRAFT USED FOR FLYING QUALITIES, STABILITY AND CONTROL, AND PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS [NASA Ames]

F8U-3 (Bu. No. 147085)

Arrived: June 18, 1959
Departed: August 15, 1960

Thanks. The Langley airplanes arrived in May and June and departed about the same time. I'm looking for NASA reports. My impression is that 7085 was primarily flown by NASA to evaluate its autopilot, since it apparently had the all-singing, all-dancing production version, but I don't have any details. It was also apparently flown at both Ames and Dryden. There is a brief mention of a sighting at Ames at http://www.aero-web.org/specs/vought/f8u-3.htm. There is an Ames archive that may have some F8U-3 records that I haven't figured out how to access yet:

http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=tf5779n7mk&chunk.id=c01-1.3.7.32&brand=oac

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

The XF8U-III in it's early stages was to be powered by a J-58 right? When did that change?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nope. Crusader III was V-401 which used J-75. A *later* version was V-418/419 which was slated to use the J-58.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Overscan,

Has there ever been any pictures posted of the V-418/V-419 design?


KJ Lesnick

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No. Tommy Thomason has looked in the Vought Archives in connection with his forthcoming book on the F8U-3 but sadly no luck so far.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Which J-58 was it planning to use? The one used on the Blackbird? Or the earlier ones proposed for planes like the advanced NAA A3J derivative?


KJ Lesnick

 

[roadrunner2]

No. Tommy Thomason has looked in the Vought Archives in connection with his forthcoming book on the F8U-3 but sadly no luck so far.

hello, whitch book on the F8U-3, I want one .

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

No. Tommy Thomason has looked in the Vought Archives in connection with his forthcoming book on the F8U-3 but sadly no luck so far.

hello, whitch book on the F8U-3, I want one .

I'm working on it at the moment as my winter project. Hopefully, it won't take as long as my other books and monographs did so it will be available in mid-2009 or at least before this time next year...

 

[blackkite]

Please get 'WINGS OF FAME VOLUME 9'. You will see the detailed report(10 pages) for Vought XF8U-3 Crusader Ⅲ. Also you will see very precise colored three side view drawings and many pictures of this fighter.
Aerospace Publishing Ltd AIRtime Publishing Inc. http://www.wingsoffame.com

 

[Orionblamblam]

Please get 'WINGS OF FAME VOLUME 9'. You will see the detailed report(10 pages) for Vought XF8U-3 Crusader Ⅲ. Also you will see very precise colored three side view drawings and many pictures of this fighter.
Aerospace Publishing Ltd AIRtime Publishing Inc. http://www.wingsoffame.com

I'm not sure that website is what you want it to be...

 

[flateric]

Wings Of Fame is out or print for ages. Try eBay...you will catch luck

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Wings Of Fame is out or print for ages. Try eBay...you will catch luck

Thanks, I've got it at home and a couple of the guys have sent me scans, thank you very much. There are a few errors in it, which were picked up in some subsequent writeups, or vice versa. However, it does have some good material in it. For one thing, there's a color picture of the cockpit of the first XF8U-3 with the fuselage stripe, which shows that it was black with a red outline...

 

[shockonlip]

And don't forget Airpower 1977 (Cover and awesome photo from attached).

Anybody know of where I can get
a nice large online image of the second photo
below?

Thanks!

 

[blackkite]

Sorry Scott! And thanks again flateric! I remember that Air enthusiast magazine has the report.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

And don't forget Airpower 1977 (Cover and awesome photo from attached).

Anybody know of where I can get
a nice large online image of the second photo
below?

Thanks!

Merry Christmas!

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Airpower 1977 had a drawing of the V-418/V-419?

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Airpower 1977 had a drawing of the V-418/V-419?

No

 

[Bill S]

One of the V-401 drawings show folding wing Sidewinders in a rear pivot launcher mounted in the lower fuselage ahead of the speedbrake.

There was also a proposal for a Rolls Royce Conway engine as well.

bill

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

The RR Conway had similar performance capabilities to the J-75, right?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nope. Very different engine. Conway was an early turbofan design, which would be good to Mach 1.8-2.0 at most, judging from the P.1121 brochure. I don't believe an afterburning version was ever actually built, though it was proposed several times.

 

[elider]

This is a pic from Vought via Jay Frank Dial.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

This is a pic from Vought via Jay Frank Dial.

That's the first production airplane and the third and last F8U-3 to fly. It has the Martin-Baker ejection seat rather than the Vought seat and reportedly had a working Sparrow missile control system. It went to NASA Ames for a year between mid-1959 and mid-1960. The question is, what day, month, and year did it fly?

 

[Bill S]

Which J-58 was it planning to use? The one used on the Blackbird? Or the earlier ones proposed for planes like the advanced NAA A3J derivative?


KJ Lesnick

The engine that was going to be use was the J75-P-6. It was anticipated that delivery 4 would have the J75

bill

 

[Bill S]

This is a pic from Vought via Jay Frank Dial.

That's the first production airplane and the third and last F8U-3 to fly. It has the Martin-Baker ejection seat rather than the Vought seat and reportedly had a working Sparrow missile control system. It went to NASA Ames for a year between mid-1959 and mid-1960. The question is, what day, month, and year did it fly?

Planned first flight for #3 was 5 October 1958. Have yet to find confirmation that did take place.

bill

 

[shockonlip]

And don't forget Airpower 1977 (Cover and awesome photo from attached).

Anybody know of where I can get
a nice large online image of the second photo
below?

Thanks!

Merry Christmas!

THANKS VERY MUCH THERE TT !!!!