Various Italian aircraft

[blackkite]

Is this drawing shows M.39? I can see M67 103 number in tail of the fuselage.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19186.0;attach=560279;image

 

[blackkite]

I can see 1922 racer Savioa S.51 two wing shape. I wonder why?

http://www.hydroretro.net/avion.php?annee=1922&langue=en&app=savoias51
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419315&page=16
http://doz.jp/sr/h_ozawa_works_2009.html

 

[blackkite]

What is the meaning of this drawing? ???

 

[Schneiderman]

1) Yes, that is the M67
2) There are no official drawings of the S51 and the exact dimensions are uncertain. There are only a few poor quality photographs. All 3-views drawings are best-guess
3) This is one attempt to produce a good drawing of the S51 using a model (which may possibly have been based on the S51) shown in a 1934 paper from l'Aerotechica, translated by NACA, and a photograph

 

[blackkite]

Thnaks for quick responce!
1922 race was held in the Bay of Naples. Naples is scenic and is near Vesuvio volcano and Pompeii. Pizza, sea food and wine are good wonderful place.
But our guide told us don't get off the bus in the city because it's little dangerous for Japanese tourists. ;D
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread. php?t=2308668

 

[hesham]

Please Moderator,

that's a random topic,sorry for open it,please re-organize it.

 

[Justo Miranda]

OK
post removed today

 

[hesham]

No need for that my dear Justo,

I don't mean you or any members sent a pictures or Info,we want only to re-organize it,
that means split some replies in new topic,and merge some replies with old topics.

Why my God many people always misunderstand me ?,I don't mean delete any picture or Info
at all,just refine the form of the topic.

 

[blackkite]

Ah, well, I have a good source of information
http://fonthillmedia.com/Schneider-Trophy

I have received this book today. And I found out immediately that this is a frightful book. I'm thankful that I met this book. I enjoy myself carefully. I show maximum respect for author's extreme effort on this book and the wonderful ability. B)

 

[Stargazer]

Ah, well, I have a good source of information
http://fonthillmedia.com/Schneider-Trophy

I have received this book today. And I found out immediately that this is a frightful book.

Frightful?? That means "scary"... At first I thought you said the book was awful, or terrible (i.e. bad)!
You want to use the word "awesome" or "terrific" (i.e. good) instead...

 

[Schneiderman]

No problem I understand what you mean . It is part of the fun of these forums that we talk with people from so many countries who do not have English as their first language and I congratulate them all on their efforts. I think that you are Japanese, which makes writing in English very difficult for you and you do very well.
Thank you for your kind comments about my book

 

[hesham]

No problem I understand what you mean . It is part of the fun of these forums that we talk with people from so many countries who do not have English as their first language and I congratulate them all on their efforts. I think that you are Japanese, which makes writing in English very difficult for you and you do very well.
Thank you for your kind comments about my book

No,I don't mean that at all,

it's not the language,the topic become a random more and more,no specific subject,so I
hope to re-organized it.

 

[blackkite]

No problem I understand what you mean . It is part of the fun of these forums that we talk with people from so many countries who do not have English as their first language and I congratulate them all on their efforts. I think that you are Japanese, which makes writing in English very difficult for you and you do very well.
Thank you for your kind comments about my book

Thanks you very much my professor and my dear hesham-san for your gentle words.
Anyway it's a really amazing book.
No doubt I'm a very poor speaker of English. Perhaps my Japanese-English auto translator did not work well. ;D
Please forgive me to upload part of book cover here.

 

[Schneiderman]

No,I don't mean that at all,
it's not the language,the topic become a random more and more,no specific subject,so I
hope to re-organized it.

Sorry Hesham but you are confusing two discussions, my reply was to Blackkite

On your subject, if you title a thread 'Various Italian Aircraft' then you cannot be surprised if the discussion covers many different types of Italian aircraft, can you? If you wanted to limit it to specific projects and aircraft then you should have chosen a better title.

 

[Stargazer]

On your subject, if you title a thread 'Various Italian Aircraft' then you cannot be surprised if the discussion covers many different types of Italian aircraft, can you? If you wanted to limit it to specific projects and aircraft then you should have chosen a better title.

Being the instigator of the "Various..." topics on this forum (in an attempt to slim down those all-and-sundry kind of threads) I'd like to underline the fact that those "Various..." topics are meant only for aircraft that can't be found in other topics. For instance, "Various Macchi aircraft" would be for all Macchi types that don't (yet) have a specific topic. "Various Italian aircraft" is for all Italian projects that are not covered in existing manufacturer-related topics. Generally speaking, it's safe to say that those very generic topics by country are NOT for aircraft by major manufacturers.

 

[Schneiderman]

A sensible idea but as this thread started ten years ago I guess it was too early to fit your template. Given it is now a random collection of well known and less known topics its probably a nightmare for the mods to untangle and best left untouched.

 

[blackkite]

2) There are no official drawings of the S51 and the exact dimensions are uncertain. There are only a few poor quality photographs. All 3-views drawings are best-guess
3) This is one attempt to produce a good drawing of the S51 using a model (which may possibly have been based on the S51) shown in a 1934 paper from l'Aerotechica, translated by NACA, and a photograph

I found excellet SIAI Savoia S51 three side view drawing in page 89. What a delicate and a beautiful drawing it is!!
Thanks a lot again.Super.

 

[blackkite]

Hi Ca.405.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/ca405.html
"In the year 1938 the company was commissioned by a special version of the Caproni aircraft intended for racing Istres-Damascus-Paris. It was a modification of the bomber Piaggio P v.32bis with large range for setting records and narrow fuselage, it gained the name Caproni-Reggaine Ca. 405 Procellaria. Was contracted to build two copies of the plane (mm. and 375 mm. 376).
To save money for record flight developed the first prototype P v.32bis, and the second prototype aircraft was ready January 4, 1938 February 25 in the tests this machine is wrecked due to problems in the engine and if the landing has been completely broken down, taking the lives of test pilot Mario Gamma.
Flights were delayed, and with the entry of Italy into the war about it and it is forgotten."

Super site.
http://www.alireggiane.com/t646-p-32-p-32-bis-ca-405

 

[blackkite]

Savoia-Marchetti SM79T was a long-haul flight recorders which SM79 bomber converted. In January 1938, three SM79T over the prestige of the Mussolini regime, painted in Crimson, succeeded Rome-Rio de Janeiro record flight across the Atlantic by land base aircraft landed only once in Dakar. Flight time was over 24hours.

http://www.fromtheskies.it/la-trasvolata-atlantica-roma-dakar-rio-de-janeiro/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbnf3ulR70

SM.79B was a twin engine export version.

 

[blackkite]

Hi CANT Z.508.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.508
http://italianaircraftwwii.blogspot.jp/2015/03/cant-z508.html

"The CANT Z.508 was a three-engine Italian flying boat developed from the CANT Z.501 for use as a heavy bomber.
"Designed as a scaled-up three-engine version of the single-engine Z.501 for use as a heavy bomber. The aircraft was not put into production although the prototype set several world records for its class, including the lifting of a 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) load."

Excellent RC Z.501 flight!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agt_SEP2dKM

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Z.505 and Z.506.
http://www.network54.com/Search/view/394728/1277159433/El+CANT+Z.506+Airone+italiano+en+Espa%C3%B1a+y+otros+pa%C3%ADses+extranjeros%3A?term=Sixto&page=583

Z.505 : Three engine large seaplane prototype for civil use mail plane
Z.506 : Civil use passenger transport seaplane prototype, slightly size reduced Z.505
Z.506A : Z.506 early production model for Mediterranean air routes.
Z.506B: the first military aircraft type. With a tandem-seat cockpit, abdominal gondola Bombardier, gunner's seat
Z.506S : the maritime search and rescue aircraft type, modified Z.506B(After World War II)
Z.506 land-based aircraft : Modified Z.506B, experimental long range record aircraft equipped with a fixed gear. Only one Aircraft producted.
Z.509 : Z.506A enlarged type for the Atlantic crossing mail plane. Only three built

Source
http://military.sakura.ne.jp/world/w_z506.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WJ-MORQ2jY

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Source ; Italian civil and military aircraft.
https://ja.scribd.com/doc/122301113/Aero-Publishers-Italian-Civil-and-Military-Aircraft-1930-1945
I can download PDF file.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Z.515.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.515

"The CANT Z.515 was a twin engine monoplane floatplane designed and built for maritime reconnaissance in Italy at the start of World War II. It did not go into service."

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Macchi MC.100.

http://www.alieuomini.it/catalogo/dettaglio_catalogo/macchi_c,96.html

Specification
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Macchi_M.C.100
engine: Alfa Romeo 126 RC 10.
nominal power: HP. 800 to 1,000 m.
wingspan: m. 26.71
length: 17.69 m.
height: 6.12 m.
wing area: 100.00 m2
empty weight: kg. 8,740
maximum load weight: kg. 13,200
maximum speed: km/h. 310 to 1,400 m.
minimum speed: 105 km/h.
lifting time: 7 ' 35 "to 2,000 m.
Service ceiling: 6,500 m.
# Add crew: 3
number of passengers: 26
Designer: Mario Castoldi
test pilot: Irenaeus Moretti
first flight of the prototype: n.c. 4157 on January 7, 1939
location: Schiranna (Varese)

"The M.C.100 was a shoulder-wing cantilever monoplane flying boat with a family resemblance to the military twin-engine M.C.99 and earlier M.C.94 . "
"A main cabin in the hull had accommodation for 26 passengers. The prototype first flew on 7 January 1939.[1] The prototype was followed by two more aircraft, and all three were in service by June 1940 with Ala Littoria operating between Rome-Algiers-Barcelona. With the start of World War II, the aircraft was used for liaison and communication duties and to maintain a daily Rome-Marsala-Tripoli service."
MC.99.
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw3/mc99.html
General characteristics
Crew: five
Wingspan: 25.34 m (83 ft 2 in)
Max takeoff weight: 11,600 kg (25,574 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Isotta Fraschini Asso XI R.2C.15 water-cooled, supercharged V12 piston engine, 660 kW (890 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 282 km/h; 152 kn (175 mph)
Range: 3,000 km (1,864 mi; 1,620 nmi)
Armament
Guns: 4 x light machine-guns
Bombs: either 1500kg of bombs or two torpedoes.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! MC.72.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRLhZJsCh4

 

[blackkite]

Caproni Ca.161 high altitude record aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.161

"The Caproni Ca.161 was an aircraft built in Italy in 1936 in an attempt to set a new world altitude record. It was a conventional biplane with two-bay, staggered wings of equal span based on Caproni's Ca.113 design. The pressure-suited pilot was accommodated in an open cockpit.
On 8 May 1937, Lieutenant Colonel Mario Pezzi broke the world altitude record with a flight to 15,655 m (51,362 ft). The following year, Pezzi broke the record again in the more powerful Ca.161bis, making a flight to 17,083 m (56,047 ft) on 22 October 1938. As of 2015, this record still stands for piston-powered biplanes.
A final altitude record for floatplanes was set on 25 September 1939 in the float-equipped Ca.161Idro, piloted by Nicola di Mauro to 13,542 m (44,429 ft). As of 2012, this record also still stands."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od0dwKEWRpk

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Caproni Ca.134.

http://italianaircraftwwii.blogspot.jp/2015/03/caproni-ca-134.html

http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_exp_a/_italy/caproni%20ca.134/?SD

Biplane horizontal tail stabilizer?

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Caproni Ca.103.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.103
"The Caproni Ca. 103 was a twin engined biplane bomber developed by the Italian company Caproni in the late 1920s and stayed at the prototype stage.
Extreme evolution of the series began with the previous Ca. 73, characterized by inverted and placement of sesquiplana haze tandem engines above the fuselage and in tractor-pusher configuration, developed in parallel with monoplanes equal role Ca. 101, 102, twin-engined, and Ca., failed to impose themselves against the latter, superior results thanks to their more modern setting, and the project was abandoned."

Ca.73 three side view.
https://jp.pinterest.com/paddyoconure/between-the-wars-aviation/
Specifications (Ca.73)
General characteristics
Crew: 2 pilots
Capacity: 10 passengers
Length: 15.10 m (49 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 25.00 m (82 ft 0 in)
Height: 5.60 m (18 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 143.0 m2 (1,539 ft2)
Empty weight: 3,400 kg (7,496 lb)
Gross weight: 5,390 kg (11,883 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Isotta-Fraschini Asso, 373 kW (500 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 180 km/h (112 mph)
Endurance: 3 hours
Service ceiling: 4,600 m (15,080 ft)

 

[blackkite]

What is this?

 

[blackkite]

Judging by engines and tailplane, I'd say it represents the first prototype Ca.66. Not sure about that nose glazing though ...

Thanks a lot. Ummm....Ca.66.
How about Ca.87? Also horizontal tail stabilizer was biplane!

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/ca87.html
Auto translation
"In 1927 year among Polish emigrants in the United States the idea about organizing the Polish flight across the Atlantic. Only two years later, Stanley Adamkevič of Chicago was able to organize the plant. It was supported by pilot 3-th Regiment Captain Adam Kowalczyk and former pilot of PLL LOT Włodzimierz Cliches.
As a result, Italian Caproni engineer personally gave them one night bomber Ca-73ter (Ca-82) on the basis of which decided to build a transatlantic aircraft Ca-87. First of all aircraft converted for a possible landing on water. Work progressed quickly, and in early May 1929 year the aircraft was ready, and the first time it launched June 15, 1929 year. Then he got a proper name-"Polonia".
Start flight planned on July 4, 1929 year on American independence day. To do this, the plane had flown from Italian airfield at Medionali airfield in Baldonnel, Dublin Ireland, awaiting favorable winds. Route paved until Canadian airfield from Terranova had intended to fly to Chicago. However, Isotta Fraschini engines worked intermittently and immediately after take-off from further ways. The plane was returned to the Italian firm, where he was converted into a bomber."

Ca. 87
Wing span, m 25.00
Aircraft length, m 15.01
Height: 5.60 m
Wing area m2 143.00
Mass, kg
an empty plane ?
Max takeoff ?
Engine type 4 DD Fraschini Asso Issota
Power, HP 4 x 265
Maximum speed, km/h 180
Cruising speed, km/h 146
Range, km 5000
Service ceiling 4000 m
Crew, pers 2

 

[blackkite]

Ca.66.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww1/ca66.html
In the early 20-ies of the Technical Department of the Ministry of aviation in Italy announced new requirements for quad night bomber. In 1921 year to these requirements the company Aeronautica Caproni began designing aircraft, received the designation LB. 4.
At the beginning of the year 1922 aircraft replaced the designation Ca. 66, was completed. He was a four-seater car design equipped with blended biplane four engines SPA 6a power 200 HP, installed in pairs.
For military trials was built two prototype (MM. 16 MM. 17), which in the same year, were transferred to the test centre at Guidonia. The plane received good evaluations, especially for maneuverability and security, but the series never went.

Three side view from hesham-san.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8743.0;attach=531328;image

 

[Apophenia]

How about Ca.87? Also horizontal tail stabilizer was biplane!

Yup, you're right ... and the Ca.87 fuselage is a better match than the Ca.66. Still puzzling over that nose glazing though.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Caproni-Predappio Ca.603 and Ca.602.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other2/ca603.html
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other2/ca602.html
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.603

"The Caproni Ca. 603 was a biplane aerobatic training aircraft developed by the Italian company Caproni subsidiary in Predappio, Aviation Group Caproni 1940 and remained at the prototype stage.
Designed by engineer Raffaele Conflenti stemmed from the previous Ca. 602 two-seater with whom he shared part of the structure but, like its predecessor, failed to start mass production."

Ca.602(Ca.603)
Type : stunt plane
Crew : 2(1)
Builder : Caproni
Number of production : 1
Span : 9.0m(7.4m)
Length : 7.62m(6.37m)
Height : 2.55 m(2.62m)
Wing area : 16.0 m ²(12.76m ²)
Empty weight : 470 kg (740kg)
Load weight : 730 kg(895kg)
Engine : an Alfa Romeo 115
Power : 215 HP (160 kW)
Max speed : 275 km/h(293km/h)
Min speed : 100km/h(105km/h)
Rate of climb : at 2000 m in 5'30"(4'17")
Ceiling : 7000 m(6600m)
Range : 600km(460km)

It's very difficult to find Ca.602 three side view drawing. :'(

 

[hesham]

Hi,

in 1933,Italian Air Ministry issued a competition for a long-range maritime recce seaplane,
which led to develop CRDA Z-501,what was the tenders ?.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
http://www.aeroteca.com/product-en/12314

Z.501 manual.
http://www.seawings.co.uk/CantZ501Mangal.htm
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.501
General characteristics
Crew: 4-5, Length: 14.30 m (46 ft 11 in), Wingspan: 22.50 m (73 ft 9¾ in), Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 6 in), Wing area: 62 m² (670 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,850 kg (8,490 lb), Max. takeoff weight: 7,050 kg (15,300 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI.RC RC2C.15 liquid-cooled V12 engine, 656 kW (880 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 275 km/h (148 kn, 170 mph), Range: 2,400 km (1,300 nmi, 1,500 mi), Service ceiling: 7,000 m (23,000 ft)
Armament
Guns: 3 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns (initially Vickers), but many had only two when the nose position was removed
Bombs: 640 kg (1,400 lb) carried externally

 

[blackkite]

Hi,

in 1933,Italian Air Ministry issued a competition for a long-range maritime recce seaplane,
which led to develop CRDA Z-501,what was the tenders ?.

How about Fiat CMASA MF4 seaplane? Little early?
Wing span, m 15.50, Aircraft length, m 11.17, Height: 3.58 m, Wing area m2 41.00
Mass, kg, an empty plane 920, maximum takeoff 1830
Engine type 1 DD Piaggio Stella IX R, Power, HP 1 x 600
Maximum speed, km/h 196, Cruising speed, km/h 175
Crew, pers 2-3, Armament: two 7.7 mm machine gun
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/mf4.html
"However, under the leadership of Mario Stiavelli at the CMASA was designed a few flying boats of original design series MF (Marina Fiat). The first was the boat CMASA MF. 4-dual/triple reconnaissance flying boat with Wing type Fairchild has first flight May 8, 1932 year with motor PiaggioP.VI and dragging the screw located on the Center wing (replacement later in "Piaggio Stella IX R rated at 600 HP (447 kW)."

 

[blackkite]

How about Fiat CMASA MF-5 delivative? Little large?
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/mf5.html
"MF intelligence followed. 4 CMASA company established transport flying boat MF. 5. It was developed on the basis of bylabyla Wal aircraft. InženerGvido Gaudi (Guido Guidi) seriously reworked the design of German boats creating your project. MF. 5 wing was parasol-type and was sponsonami on the body for better stability on the water. The aircraft was capable of carrying up to 10 passengers and was powered by two V-shaped engines Fiat a. 24R with a capacity of 750 HP (559 kW) installed in tandem with tractor and pusher propellers.
The first prototype aircraft (MM. 270) with propeller made his flight in December 1931 year. The second prototype (MM. 271) flew on September 10, 1933 year already with three propeller.
By this time, the competition for civil transport boat was cancelled and both prototypes were transferred to S.A.N.A. (Società Anonima Navigazione Aerea) in Genoa. There the boats got civil registration numbers MM. 270-I-AZEF and MM. 271-I-AZER and were used for flights in the Western Mediterranean Sea. After takeover Ala Littoria both cars were returned to the Ministry of avaicii."
Wing span, m 23, Aircraft length, m 17.10, Aircraft height, m 5.45, Wing area m2 93.00
Mass, kg, empty aircraft 5210, maximum takeoff 7550
Engine type 2 DD Fiat a. 24R, Power, HP 2 x 750
Maximum speed, km/h 225, Cruising speed, km/h 185, Range, km 1850, Service ceiling, m 3200
Crew, pers 2-3, Payload: up to 10 passengers

 

[blackkite]

How about Ca.124? Little late?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8743.msg287830.html#msg287830

Or CMASA MF.7 - MF.9?

 

[hesham]

My dear Blackkite,

I agree about Ca.124,but for CMASA,I think it was MF-10 ?.

 

[blackkite]

Oh MF.10?
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/mf10.html