Various Focke-Wulf projects

[newsdeskdan]

was the flitzer actualy proposed for the volksjäger?

Yes, although it was apparently submitted too late to be given serious consideration.

 

[sgeorges4]

that was the bmw 003 variant?

 

[newsdeskdan]

that was the bmw 003 variant?

You've not seen the contemporary drawing which shows the Focke-Wulf Volksflugzeug next to the Einheits-T-L-Jaeger? I'm sure I posted a version of it somewhere hereabouts which shows that the Peterle was also included. If not, yes, Focke-Wulf offered three designs for Volksjaeger - the conventional layout Volksflugzeug either with swept wings or straight and a BMW 003, the Flitzer with BMW 003 (upgradable to the 011 in the future without major fuselage changes, which was the Einheits-T-L-Jaeger), and the PTL-powered Peterle. It was all in vain though, because the Heinkel P 1073 had been chosen as the winner even before the competition got started, much to the annoyance of Richard Vogt, since all reasonably impartial observers thought that his Blohm & Voss P 211 design was better.

 

[sgeorges4]

heinkel lobbying and from what Vogt say,they didn't seem to have look to the Siebel and project(sorry for my english,still french).

 

[hesham]

From Jet & Prop 4/2014.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the FW P.0310239-01,P.0310239-02 & P.0310239-10,is that right ?.

Козырев Михаил Егорович. Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны читать онлайн | Электронная библиотека e-libra.me

Козырев Михаил Егорович. Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны читать онлайн | Электронная библиотека e-libra.me Читать онлайн Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны. Козырев Михаил Егорович.Михаил Егорович Козырев, Вячеслав Михайлович КозыревРеактивная авиация Второй мировой войны Введение...

e-libra.ru

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi,

the FW P.0310239-01,P.0310239-02 & P.0310239-10,is that right ?.

Козырев Михаил Егорович. Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны читать онлайн | Электронная библиотека e-libra.me

Козырев Михаил Егорович. Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны читать онлайн | Электронная библиотека e-libra.me Читать онлайн Реактивная авиация Второй мировой войны. Козырев Михаил Егорович.Михаил Егорович Козырев, Вячеслав Михайлович КозыревРеактивная авиация Второй мировой войны Введение...

e-libra.ru

No - I'm sure we've covered this elsewhere. Those are Focke-Wulf drawing numbers. There is no 'P' in front of them.





And there were only two designs studied - tailless and conventional layout. These had drawing numbers 0310 239-10 and 0310 239-01 respectively. The following (see below) is just an early sketch for the conventional layout design - not a third design in its own right.
This sketch appears at the end of a large file of notes on the two designs and whoever first 'discovered' it presumably didn't bother to actually read this file itself. If they had, they would have realised the file was microfilmed in reverse chronological order - so the newest papers appear at the beginning and oldest papers appear at the end. So this was one of the oldest pages - but the 'discoverer' thought it was the last and newest, and arbitrarily decided it should be the '1000 x 1000 x 1000 C'. Interesting that you've found someone who's gone to the trouble of making up a drawing number for it.




Here is the first page of the report that the tidied up versions of the two designs appear in:




And here is Focke-Wulf Oberingenieur Herbert Wolff's first draft of the first page of the report:

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Dan,

and I speak generally,do you think there was a series between 0310 239-01 and 0310 239-10 ?,I mean from
-02 to -09 !,but still unknown ?.

 

[edwest4]

Thank you very much Dan.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thank you my dear Dan,

and I speak generally,do you think there was a series between 0310 239-01 and 0310 239-10 ?,I mean from
-02 to -09 !,but still unknown ?.

There is no evidence of any further designs. All the notes and calculations, over a period of several months, refer to just the tailless and conventional layouts. It's not impossible that there were other drawings in the sequence but my feeling is that the numbers are done that way to avoid appearing to give one design prominence over the other - if one had been '-01' and the other '-02' you might think that less importance had been attached to '-02' during the study. The issue of conventional v tailless layout was very contentious at the time.

 

[Basil]

Dan, thx for posting this highly interesting original documents. Especially it is worth pointing out that Herbert Wolff describes the need for area ruling the fuselage (Einziehung des Rumpfes an der Flügelwurzel - tapering the fuselage at the wingroot). Besides Hertel at Junkers this is one of the first mentioning of area ruling before its reinvention in the early 1950s.

 

[Basil]

Dan,
in # 222, 224 and 225 you mention unpublished Fw nightfighter and zerstoerer projects. Any chance of seeing them published in one of your booklet series or anywhere else?

 

[athpilot]

Funny how a document from the Air Department in Wright Field found its way into a german archive... I discovered it by doing some research on completly other topics. The document must be from 1941/42. Here is the Focke-Wulf Fernkampfflugzeug with 4 BMW-803 engines. Could the big load in the bombbay be the proposed version of the german 5t-bomb?

 

[GTX]

Interesting.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Funny how a document from the Air Department in Wright Field found its way into a german archive... I discovered it by doing some research on completly other topics. The document must be from 1941/42. Here is the Focke-Wulf Fernkampfflugzeug with 4 BMW-803 engines. Could the big load in the bombbay be the proposed version of the german 5t-bomb?

Nice find! Are there any more sheets than that? There appear to have been two versions of Baubeschreibung Nr. 238 and you have bits from both of them there. The first sheet is from the version concerning an aircraft with four BMW 803s whereas the second sheet is from the version about a bomber with four BMW 801s. I have the full version of the latter, the full title of which is Fernkampfflugzeug "H" mit 4 x BMW 801 - Motoren. It's dated April 29, 1941, and the three-view drawing shows a very similar looking aircraft but with a slightly different cockpit arrangement.

 

[Johnbr]

Love this bomber.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Here's the aircraft that appears in Baubeschreibung Nr. 238 Fernkampfflugzeug "H" mit 4 x BMW 801 - Motoren of April 9, 1941 (brighter white drawings), set against athpilot's Baubeschreibung Nr. 238 Fernkampf-Flugzeug mit 4 x BMW 803 Motoren of September 1, 1941. Differences (aside from the engine change) from the former to the latter would appear to include taller undercarriage, repositioned turrets, repositioned wings and smaller fins.

 

[richard]

Thank you : I had never seen a picture of the "H" before ...Please , could you show us the 3-views ?

BTW , I think , the athpilot post showed only the 1/9/1941 No238 ...

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thank you : I had never seen a picture of the "H" before ...Please , could you show us the 3-views ?

BTW , I think , the athpilot post showed only the 1/9/1941 No238 ...

Athpilot's second image, FW_02, shows the opening page from the 801-powered "H" version of No. 238. I'll publish the full three-view of the "H" in the reworked version of my Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers bookazine, due out early next year (and try and get the images a bit bigger too!). Like the September '41 design, the "H" also has a detailed side view showing the cockpit arrangement. There are some other drawings showing the undercarriage retraction process as well.

 

[sienar]

 

[newsdeskdan]

View attachment 621738

Side view = Focke-Wulf drawing 0310 226-62 from Baubeschreibung Nr. 272, dated February 1, 1944.
Three-view = Focke-Wulf drawing 0310 226-61 from the same report of the same date.
Here is the third drawing from the set - 0310 226-63, same report, same date (the report is Feb 1, the drawing is Jan 31).

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Focke Wulf P.011046 & P.011047 Night Fighter Projects were the same Entwurf IV & V .

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the FW had a project for Schnellbomber high speed bomber,powered by one turbojet engine,mounted above the fuselage,had anyone a drawing to it ?.

 

[topspeed3]

Probably an early pproposed configuration.

That is Saab Fighter.

 

[Temistocle]

View attachment 621738

Side view = Focke-Wulf drawing 0310 226-62 from Baubeschreibung Nr. 272, dated February 1, 1944.
Three-view = Focke-Wulf drawing 0310 226-61 from the same report of the same date.
Here is the third drawing from the set - 0310 226-63, same report, same date (the report is Feb 1, the drawing is Jan 31).

Below the Nr. 272 document translated in English by the AAF ATSC Air Documents Division in 1946, but with some of the drawings almost illegible:

Baubeschreibung Nr.272 Einmotorigen TL-Jager mit R-Gerät

 

[richard B]

Hi,

the FW had a project for Schnellbomber high speed bomber,powered by one turbojet engine,mounted above the fuselage,had anyone a drawing to it ?.

the # 4 / picture db 3 shows the Focke-Wulf "project" (rather proposal) 0310256 :

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/daimler-benz-project-a-to-f.6336/

 

[hesham]

What was this,an alternative design to Ta.183 ?.

Secret Nazi Aircraft 1939 -1945 Luftwaffe's Advanced Aircraft Projects

 

[sienar]

Simply labeled as 1000x1000x1000. Drawing looks like wartime FW.

Stiftung Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin - Viewer

 

[hesham]

Hi,

in this report,the Focke-Wulf Entwurf II & III,what was the designation
number for both,it was written on the drawings,but I couldn't read it ?.

Slideshow | NASM.XXXX.0408_ref616

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi,

in this report,the Focke-Wulf Entwurf II & III,what was the designation
number for both,it was written on the drawings,but I couldn't read it ?.

Slideshow | NASM.XXXX.0408_ref616

Crystal clear versions of these drawings can be found in my book Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe Volume 1: Jet Fighters 1939-1945.

 

[hesham]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

 

[newsdeskdan]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

No, the BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger.

 

[Wurger]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

No, the BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger.

Actually was a BMW 801E fitted with a turbocharger. I believe it was considered to the Ju 388.

 

[newsdeskdan]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

No, the BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger.

Actually was a BMW 801E fitted with a turbocharger. I believe it was considered to the Ju 388.

The BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger. It was originally designed for the BMW 801 D, then work started on mating it to the BMW 801 E. This combination was first referred to as the 'BMW 801 E mit P 8035', then simply 'P 8035', then finally it became the BMW 801 J.
NB. I was wrong here. The P 8035 was, as Wurger points out, a BMW 801 E mated to the turbosupercharger from the BMW 801 J - it wasn't actually the BMW 801 J, although it was very closely related to it - see post #280 below.

 

[robunos]

. . . then it finally became the BMW 801 J

What was the BMW 801 TJ ?

cheers,
Robin.

 

[newsdeskdan]

. . . then it finally became the BMW 801 J

What was the BMW 801 TJ ?

cheers,
Robin.

The BMW 801 TJ was a BMW 801 J supplied as a complete 'power egg' with all associated devices including support structure, pressure control system, lubricant cooler, speed sensor etc. but without propeller, spinner or fairing.

 

[GTX]

Photo matching the diagrams above.

Source

 

[Wurger]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

No, the BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger.

Actually was a BMW 801E fitted with a turbocharger. I believe it was considered to the Ju 388.

The BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger. It was originally designed for the BMW 801 D, then work started on mating it to the BMW 801 E. This combination was first referred to as the 'BMW 801 E mit P 8035', then simply 'P 8035', then finally it became the BMW 801 J.

View attachment 647945

The BMW 8035 was an in-house designation to a BMW 801E mated to a turbosupercharger. Turbosuperchargers used a RLM designation like 9-2426 or 9-2279, by Heinkel-Hirt/DVL. I don`t know how of if BMW designated their turbochargers (DB called them DBT..., Heinkel-Hirt TK...), but project 8035 was related to the full package (in this case engine plus turbo), as in all other BMW projects, as far as I know, they always include an engine. Please see the graph, taken from "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke", page 173. The BMW 8035 and the BMW 801J projected performances are compared, making them separate designs.

 

[robunos]

. . . then it finally became the BMW 801 J

What was the BMW 801 TJ ?

cheers,
Robin.

The BMW 801 TJ was a BMW 801 J supplied as a complete 'power egg' with all associated devices including support structure, pressure control system, lubricant cooler, speed sensor etc. but without propeller, spinner or fairing.

Thanks for the clarification !

cheers,
Robin.

 

[newsdeskdan]

From, Luftwaffe over America,

Focke Wulf P 8035.

No, the BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger.

Actually was a BMW 801E fitted with a turbocharger. I believe it was considered to the Ju 388.

The BMW P 8035 was a high-altitude turbosupercharger. It was originally designed for the BMW 801 D, then work started on mating it to the BMW 801 E. This combination was first referred to as the 'BMW 801 E mit P 8035', then simply 'P 8035', then finally it became the BMW 801 J.

View attachment 647945

The BMW 8035 was an in-house designation to a BMW 801E mated to a turbosupercharger. Turbosuperchargers used a RLM designation like 9-2426 or 9-2279, by Heinkel-Hirt/DVL. I don`t know how of if BMW designated their turbochargers (DB called them DBT..., Heinkel-Hirt TK...), but project 8035 was related to the full package (in this case engine plus turbo), as in all other BMW projects, as far as I know, they always include an engine. Please see the graph, taken from "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke", page 173. The BMW 8035 and the BMW 801J projected performances are compared, making them separate designs.

Examining this more closely - you're right - the P 8035 was indeed a BMW 801 E mated to a turbosupercharger. Its relationship to the BMW 801 J is complicated by the fact that both the 801 E and the 801 J were based on the 801 D and the turbosupercharger used for both engines, designed for the 801 D, was exactly the same for both.
It would appear that the 801 J was a standard 801 D off the production line subsequently modified to incorporate the turbosupercharger. The P 8035 was an 801 E (801 D with different gear ratios) with the turbosupercharger 'built in'.
Evidently BMW originally envisioned positioning the turbosupercharger away from the engine, eliminating packaging problems that apparently affected the 801 J (enlargement of the engine cowling and numerous adjustments to charge air end cooling etc.) but subsequently discovered that it could be positioned directly behind the engine, with the charge air end cooling problem solved through the use of heat exchangers for intermediate air cooling.
My source on this is a BMW document called 'Stand und Entwicklung der Abgasturbine bei BMW' by Mueller, dated November 9, 1942, from T-2 reel 3794, frame 295.

NB. The BMW 801 TJ is what I said it was.