Various Arado Prototype & Projects

[newsdeskdan]

Thank you my dear Dan,

but that means there was Arado flying wing bomber Project,at first I thought it was E.500 fuselage only.

Some of the images do show the E 500 fuselage, but others don't. That one is labelled Studie über die Profilabmessungen eines Nurflügel- Kampfflugzeuges mit Ikaria Kanonen or 'Study of the profile dimensions of a flying wing bomber with Ikaria cannons'.

That's new Info for me,thank you my dear Dan,and here is the same drawings from Arado book.

The fact that the E 500 fuselage drawing is shown alongside that Ar 240 drawing makes me think that they both come from the same source - that 1941 turrets report. Otherwise, it'd be tempting to believe that somewhere out there is a dedicated E 500 report.
Meanwhile, here are some more of the report's many illustrations.

 

[Wurger]

Is it just me or the turrets with Ikaria(MG FF) and Rh 202 were intended to have a rangefinder? I browsed the Zeiss Archiv and found this:

http://www.archive.zeiss.de/hzeig.FAU?sid=56F634D4165&dm=3&dokref=3&ref=3495&auft=Raumbildentfernungsmesser+1+m+mit+Wandermarke+%28Disimi%29%2C+1939++

a 1m base stereo rangefinder in a turret mount, without gun/guns.

I knew about the intention to mount a Zeiss steroscopic telemeter in the Henschel HS 124 to help aiming a 37mm cannon. I guess it still are at the same above website.

 

[Wurger]

The link provided does not led us to the right page. I will try to upload the pictures from the impressive Zeiss Archiv, located here:

https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/int/history/archives.html

 

[newsdeskdan]

The link provided does not led us to the right page. I will try to upload the pictures from the impressive Zeiss Archiv

That does look very much like the device shown in Abb 26!

 

[Wurger]

I reckon it would be a hard task to locate and aim using such a device B).

 

[newsdeskdan]

I don't know if this is a commonly known about thing - Messerschmitt Bf 110 C/U1 with Arado Ar 240-style upper and lower remote control turrets fitted.

 

[hesham]

I don't know if this is a commonly known about thing - Messerschmitt Bf 110 C/U1 with Arado Ar 240-style upper and lower remote control turrets fitted.

I don't remember if it is new for me or not,I will check.

 

[Wurger]

New to me, although the Me110 was used to test the Me 210 gun side barbettes. The caption says it also had reinforced wings and smaller radiators.

 

[GTX]

I'm sure I have seen a photo of a Bf110 with these turrets...or is my mind playing ricks on me?

 

[newsdeskdan]

I'm sure I have seen a photo of a Bf110 with these turrets...or is my mind playing ricks on me?

I've seen a photo of a Bf 110 with an upper turret and if I recall correctly it was labelled as a Bf 110 D. It wasn't evident from the photo that the aircraft also had the lower turret fitted but it might well have done. This document has a werknummer on it, so it's entirely possible that the photo does in fact depict this design. Maybe more photos exist showing the lower turret as well?

 

[Wurger]

I would love to see a photo of that Me110 with turrets. My sources (Smith/Kay) mention a Bf 110C-2/U1 with the said Me 210 barbettes. Griehl states a Bf110 V5 prototype used by Arado from July 1940. No mention on "Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt...".

 

[sienar]

I've seen photos of the 210 style barbettes apparently on a front line aircraft for combat trials.

 

[fightingirish]

Found via Google Image Search.

Zeigt eine Versuchsbewaffnung an einer Bf 110 D/U1 (RB+GL), an der die ferngesteuerte Abwehrbewaffnung mit zwei MG 81 Z für die Arado Ar 240 getestet worden...

The original source on the server is temporarily suspended.
Link: http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Maschinen%20Gewehre/MG%2081/mg%2081%20z%20maschinen%20gewehr.html

 

[Wurger]

Very interesting stuff, thanks!

 

[jcf]

From Mankau and Petrick Bf110, Me210,Me410

 

[GTX]

Thanks Jon - those were the ones I was thinking of. Glad to see it wasn't my brain playing tricks on me...

 

[sgeorges4]

Something on the arado E.381

 

[Jemiba]

... and again: Please ALWAYS mention the sources for pictures !

 

[fightingirish]

Something on the arado E.381
[...]

... and again: Please ALWAYS mention the sources for pictures !

Picture: http://www.flying-things.ch/RESERVE2/e381%20schnitt.jpg
Source: http://www.flying-things.ch/Giftzwerge.htm
Unfortunately no information regarding the primary source. :-|

 

[newsdeskdan]

Something on the arado E.381
[...]

... and again: Please ALWAYS mention the sources for pictures !

Picture: http://www.flying-things.ch/RESERVE2/e381%20schnitt.jpg
Source: http://www.flying-things.ch/Giftzwerge.htm
Unfortunately no information regarding the primary source. :-|

Just another sketchy copy of the Arado original (attached). Source: My Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich bookazine.

 

[Silencer1]

Slightly offtopic: armament of Arado Ar-240.

I wonder, if the Arado considered to design or build unarmed version of Ar-240?

IMHO, with it's very clean aerodynamic shape and relatively small size, this aircraft in recconnaissance role could be used in the same mode, as Mosquito. Also, most that I knew about this type, represent the implementation of quite sophisticated (and space and weight consuming) remote-controlled defence system and it's gunner.

For example, Ta-154 (being a fighter) or FW-187 (fighter, too) completely lacks defensive armament. From other hand, messershmitte "family" of Zerstorers have always been equipped with rear-firing guns.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Slightly offtopic: armament of Arado Ar-240.

I wonder, if the Arado considered to design or build unarmed version of Ar-240?

IMHO, with it's very clean aerodynamic shape and relatively small size, this aircraft in recconnaissance role could be used in the same mode, as Mosquito. Also, most that I knew about this type, represent the implementation of quite sophisticated (and space and weight consuming) remote-controlled defence system and it's gunner.

For example, Ta-154 (being a fighter) or FW-187 (fighter, too) completely lacks defensive armament. From other hand, messershmitte "family" of Zerstorers have always been equipped with rear-firing guns.

There was a day-intruder version of the Ta 154 with a rear turret (see attached) and I seem to recall a version of the Fw 187 with one too. Arado tried pretty much every role for the Ar 240 so there was probably an unarmed version. Then again, Arado developed the virtually unassailable Ar 234 reconnaissance platform fairly early on, so they may have thought there was no need for an Ar 240 in that role.

 

[sienar]

Slightly offtopic: armament of Arado Ar-240.

I wonder, if the Arado considered to design or build unarmed version of Ar-240?

IMHO, with it's very clean aerodynamic shape and relatively small size, this aircraft in recconnaissance role could be used in the same mode, as Mosquito. Also, most that I knew about this type, represent the implementation of quite sophisticated (and space and weight consuming) remote-controlled defence system and it's gunner.

For example, Ta-154 (being a fighter) or FW-187 (fighter, too) completely lacks defensive armament. From other hand, messershmitte "family" of Zerstorers have always been equipped with rear-firing guns.

I thought several were stripped of armament and used in recon over England?

 

[newsdeskdan]

According to Kranzhoff, Ar 240 V3-V6, A-04/U2, V7, V8, V9, V10 and V11 were all eventually used for reconnaissance in one form or another. The status of their armament is unclear but it looks as though they might have kept their lower turrets, though not the upper ones?
He quotes Blume as saying the Ar 440 could be shifted "to clean recon role with BMW 801 J".

 

[sa_bushwar]

This looks like an Arado 234 Bomber?

 

[Grzesio]

Yes, Ar 234 C with RATO units and a bomb under the fuselage, a scale model of course.

 

[lippischh]

Just came across this bit of information (from this link : https://sassik.livejournal.com/503280.html ).

Were there really two cockpit designs for the Arado Projekt II ?

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Hamza,

the book is right.

 

[lippischh]

Yes my dear Hamza,

the book is right.

Thanks Hesham!

 

[newsdeskdan]

Yes my dear Hamza,

the book is right.

Thanks Hesham!

The book is wrong. Jean-Denis G. G. LePage does not appear to have used any primary source material in preparing the drawings in his book - they are all based on images from earlier books and LePage seems to have had no way to tell what might or might not have been reliable.
Arado was asked to submit a design for the 2-TL-Jaeger/Nacht und Schlechtwetterjaeger competition some time around the beginning of March 1945, with an expectation that the design would be presented at a meeting taking place from March 20 to March 24. Between March 7, 1945, and March 17, 1945, the company's designers worked through nine different potential designs numbered 1. Entwurf to 9. Entwurf. From these nine designs, Arado chose two that it would present at the meeting. 6. Entwurf became 'Arado I' or 'Projekt I' and 9. Entwurf became 'Arado II' or 'Projekt II'. The original Arado drawings of 6. Entwurf and 9. Entwurf (along with five others - 4. Entwurf and 8. Entwurf are missing) are in my Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich bookazine (p87-88).
I found the Arado drawings in 2017 but back in 2014 I had previously found an original hard copy of the report presented at the March 20-24 meeting, which included drawings and details of all seven competitors. A scan from this is reproduced on p83 of Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich (2015) showing Arado I and Arado II. If you compare the Arado originals with what was presented at the meeting, you can see that while 9. Entwurf was presented exactly as it was first drafted (it even says '9. Entwurf' in small print on the drawing), 6. Entwurf had to be cleaned up slightly and the positioning of the undercarriage mainwheels is subtly different.
So Arado dashed out the drawings very quickly, then rushed them over to the competition adjudicators almost without revision prior to presentation. It seems as though they later produced substantially cleaned up versions of both which I've yet to find any original of but which can be seen on p139 and p141 of Dieter Herwig's Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Ground Attack & Special Purpose Aircraft. There seems no reason to doubt the authenticity of these cleaned up drawings since they almost exactly match the versions presented at the March 20-24 meeting.
Projekt II is 9. Entwurf and all known original drawings show the same three seater layout - two side-by-side up front with the third man seated directly behind them facing the starboard side of the fuselage.

Then we come to Heinz J. Nowarra's Die Deutsche Luftruestung 1933-1945, specifically p85-86 of Volume 1 (1993 edition). This shows what are evidently highly inaccurate re-draws of Projekt I and Projekt II. Nothing about these drawings is convincing. For Projekt II, they show the engines in a different position, the wings in a different position, a different tail shape and a completely different fuselage cross-section. Nowarra's Projekt I is the same. They are just very basic redraws gone wrong, yet those who know no better have been religiously copying them for years and presenting them as 'Projekt I' and 'Projekt II'. Nowarra got plenty right, but he also got some things wrong and this is one of them. Time to lay it to rest.

NB. LePage does not even seem to have realised that Projekt II was a three-seater, as all entries for 2-TL-Jaeger had to be.

 

[lippischh]

Thank you Dan for this remarkable answer

Any book that features the Messerschmitt Animal Names types is to be approached with skepticism.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Dan,

and please mention the name of other seven competitors ?.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thank you my dear Dan,

and please mention the name of other seven competitors ?.

Seven in total, including the two Arado designs. See attached photo from 2014.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Dan.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thank you my dear Dan.

While I photographed the whole thing, I scanned the drawings that were included. Here are, to coin Scott's phrase, smallerized versions of my scans so you can see all seven competitors.

 

[hesham]

Many thanks my dear Dan,

and as I know there was still unknown night fighter Projects in Arado 16/43 series ?.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Many thanks my dear Dan,

and as I know there was still unknown night fighter Projects in Arado 16/43 series ?.

Possibly, although the only known designs from the TEW 16/43 series are day fighters and fast bombers.

 

[hesham]

And night fighter;

http://www.luft46.com/arado/artew19.html

 

[newsdeskdan]

And night fighter;

http://www.luft46.com/arado/artew19.html

That Luft 46 entry is very confusing and the night fighter drawing it shows is speculative. The reality is that in spring 1943, Arado carried out a study to determine the optimum size and propulsion system for combat aircraft with swept wings. The resulting report, Vorschlag fuer die Weiterentwicklung schneller Zweisitzer, is dated August 11, 1943, and includes the following numbered drawings:
TEW 16/43-13 of March 18, 1943, shows a rocket-propelled fighter which Arado refers to as an 'R-Jaeger'.
TEW 16/43-15 of March 20, 1943, shows what Arado refers to as a 'K-Jaeger' or 'Kombinations-Jaeger' - a fighter with both turbojet and rocket propulsion.
TEW 16/43-23 of June 3, 1943, shows an Arado 'TL-Jaeger' or jet fighter.
TEW 16/43-24 of June 19, 1943, shows a heavy fighter propelled by two Jumo 012s.
TEW 16/43-26 of June 19, 1943, shows a fast bomber propelled by two Jumo 012s.
It also includes four unnumbered drawings (two 3-views and two multi-profile comparisons). 16/43-24, 16/43-26, the two unnumbered 3-views and one of the multi-profile comparisons all show essentially the same aircraft with different combinations of equipment and weapons. This is referred to as the 'TL1500' design. The second multi-profile comparison drawing shows the Ar 440 plus six other different designs, one of which is the TL1500 design. The others are powered by DB 609, BMW 803, TL2000, TL3000 and PTL engines and are basically an exercise in scaling up and down to find the best power to weight ratio.
Nowarra refers to drawing TEW 16/43-19 in his Die Deutsche Luftruestung 1933-1945, p84-85, and the drawing he uses matches one of the two unnumbered 3-views in the same report as the other designs.
The report gives performance calculations for each of the six designs, besides the Ar 440, as a fast bomber, heavy fighter, night fighter, bad weather fighter and reconnaissance aircraft. So you could argue that Vorschlag fuer die Weiterentwicklung schneller Zweisitzer actually features six different night fighters... but it doesn't really. There aren't any proper drawings of any of the designs as a night fighter. They're just arrangements and calculations produced for comparative purposes. And no known TEW 16/43 sequence drawing shows a night fighter, as I said. Overall, it would appear that all of these designs are part of E 560 - which was really concerned with the prospects of the swept wing form proposed, rather than any of the example aircraft featured.

 

[hesham]

My dear Dan,

in my files,probably the Arado 16/43-21 was a night fighter Project ,need confirm ?.