US officials object to European push to buy weapons locally

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People keep mentioning the Ukraine support situation as being a catalyst here, but that is abolutely not the case. Ukraine is not a longstanding ally and member of NATO.

What has damaged trust in the US as a provider of military equipment is threats to annex Canada and Greenland, statements that Europe has to look after its own defence, public and private statements of current administration showing utter loathing and contempt directed at Europe, and tariff wars.

If you repeatedly punch your friends in the stomach, don't be surprised if they start avoiding you.

A few comments if I may. A standard business negotiating tactic in the U.S. is making outrageous demands. Business information is closely held. It is private. What happens in my own industry, for example, is very strict behavior online against making any comment about competitors. Such comments can and will be used against you and usually by anonymous people looking to harm your interests. And if people reject those outrageous demands, you walk away. Sometimes, though, they might accept.

The situation with Canada and Greenland goes back to the end of the Second World War. The Soviet Union became the new enemy in 1945. Britain was so alarmed that Prime Minister Churchill asked for and got a plan to attack the Soviet Union in 1945. It was called Operation Unthinkable.

In 1949, the Soviets detonated their first atomic bomb. The U.S. knew they had B-29s which they copied as the Tu-4. This bomber was now a significant threat. The Soviet plan was to fly them over the North Pole and across Canada. So the U.S. military began constructing lines of radars across Canada. First, Pinetree, followed by the Mid-Canada Line, followed by the northernmost Distant Early Warning Line which included Greenland. By the time NORAD was established, Canada understood its position in North American Air Defense.

"I think it is wrong to leave the impression with the Minister and the government that our air defence plan is primarily for the defence of Canadian territory when in fact, any defence of Canadian territory is but a by-product or extra dividend to the main purpose, which is the defence of SAC bases and northeastern United States."

-- Chief of the General Staff Lieutenant-General H.D. Graham, in a top-secret letter to Chairman Chiefs of Staff Charles Foulkes, August 21, 1958.

From page 71 of Requiem for a Giant by Palmiro Campagna.
 
You realize that even US have an exception of free speech protection? It's not a qualitive difference, merely quantative.


I agree, that abortion right reasonably should be restricted by medical consideration. After all, there is a lot of perfectly reliable ways of contraception around. On the other hand, USA aren't exactly the shining beacon of light in that matters also, since there seems to be no reasonable middle ground, but two crouds, one of which shouthing "ABORTION IS RIGHT!!!" the other shouting "ABORTION IS MURDER!!!" and both interested only in shouting louder.

A false view. Both sides can't be right. That said, there are medical conditions that are involuntary and where the life of the baby is sacrificed to save the mother. Killing the baby is not intended.

In the U.S., one party is the shouting party. Like a child that only wants to have its way, it thinks shouting will return them to power. A word they worship. That way, they can and will impose their will on the people. That's all they care about. Voters, and convincing them, is all that matters. The voters are then discarded.
 
You realize that even US have an exception of free speech protection? It's not a qualitive difference, merely quantative.

Under US law, the only restriction on the freedom of speech is advocacy of violence and the like. Person A can shout "I hate Person B" all they want. "I want Person B to die" all day long. "Person B's politics/appearance/ideology/race/religion are ugly and stupid" as much as they like. This is as it should be.

I agree, that abortion right reasonably should be restricted by medical consideration. After all, there is a lot of perfectly reliable ways of contraception around. On the other hand, USA aren't exactly the shining beacon of light in that matters also, since there seems to be no reasonable middle ground, but two crouds, one of which shouthing "ABORTION IS RIGHT!!!" the other shouting "ABORTION IS MURDER!!!" and both interested only in shouting louder.
Well, sure. Moderation is usually the most reasonable approach, but people aren't usually reasonable.
 
Under US law, the only restriction on the freedom of speech is advocacy of violence and the like. Person A can shout "I hate Person B" all they want. "I want Person B to die" all day long. "Person B's politics/appearance/ideology/race/religion are ugly and stupid" as much as they like. This is as it should be.


Well, sure. Moderation is usually the most reasonable approach, but people aren't usually reasonable.

Your reply lacks support. I think most people are reasonable. Too many mistakes and the problems pile up.
 
We are hugely off topic now chaps.

However, my view is that freedom of speech should not allow persecution of a person due to their beliefs & opinions or desire to espouse those beliefs &opinions (in medieval and renaissance Europe many countries had lese majesty laws, hence lots of people crossed the Pond to escape them). With the exception that everyone should have freedom from aggression or hate speech. Imagine a person stood outside your house all day calling you a c*&t and you're not allowed to go out and punch them in the face until they can't talk anymore.....

Similarly, (as a man) I believe only women should be the ones to vote on abortion laws, since it's they that will do ALL of the hard work, and they whose lives are potentially at risk. We (men) don't really get any say in my opinion.

Back to the OT, I generally find upsetting and insulting your customers isn't conducive to good sales results.
 
Sure. "Abortion at all times for any reason?" Wrong. "No abortions ever?" Wrong.

"Abort the furries?" Right, each and every time. See? Middle ground, everybody agrees and goes home happy.

No, no, no. It's Ban the Furries.
 
We are hugely off topic now chaps.

However, my view is that freedom of speech should not allow persecution of a person due to their beliefs & opinions or desire to espouse those beliefs &opinions (in medieval and renaissance Europe many countries had lese majesty laws, hence lots of people crossed the Pond to escape them). With the exception that everyone should have freedom from aggression or hate speech. Imagine a person stood outside your house all day calling you a c*&t and you're not allowed to go out and punch them in the face until they can't talk anymore.....

Similarly, (as a man) I believe only women should be the ones to vote on abortion laws, since it's they that will do ALL of the hard work, and they whose lives are potentially at risk. We (men) don't really get any say in my opinion.

Back to the OT, I generally find upsetting and insulting your customers isn't conducive to good sales results.

Where was the man when the woman got pregnant? In another room? This sick, twisted idea that the man is automatically off the hook is sick and twisted.
 
"Abort the furries?" Right, each and every time. See? Middle ground, everybody agrees and goes home happy.
You really have an unorthodox complex here) Wonder what caused it... on the other hand, it's not my business.

P.S. Oh, by the way, neko is not furry. At least use right terminology.
 
Where was the man when the woman got pregnant? In another room? This sick, twisted idea that the man is automatically off the hook is sick and twisted.
I don't see any man struggling to carry a pregnancy to term, or having foot long needles inserted into his abdomen to check the state of the foetus, or at risk of blood clots, or any number of other things my own Wife had to deal with. But there is nothing sick and twisted, in my opinion, of letting the Ones doing the deed make the decision as to what they can do with their own bodies.

What is sick and twisted is a male majority government (in any country) imposing its will on 50% of the population's bodily functions. That smacks of servitude in my mind.

The simple solution is to carry out a national referendum and put the topic to bed (no pun intended) once and for all.
 
I don't see any man struggling to carry a pregnancy to term, or having foot long needles inserted into his abdomen to check the state of the foetus, or at risk of blood clots, or any number of other things my own Wife had to deal with. But there is nothing sick and twisted, in my opinion, of letting the Ones doing the deed make the decision as to what they can do with their own bodies.

What is sick and twisted is a male majority government (in any country) imposing its will on 50% of the population's bodily functions. That smacks of servitude in my mind.

The simple solution is to carry out a national referendum and put the topic to bed (no pun intended) once and for all.

The U.S. has made its position known. It is now up to the States. Any reasonable person knows that two people are required. This sick and twisted idea that some kind of servitude is involved is sick and twisted.
 
With the exception that everyone should have freedom from aggression or hate speech. Imagine a person stood outside your house all day calling you a c*&t and you're not allowed to go out and punch them in the face until they can't talk anymore.....

As it should be. Someone yelling *anything* outside your house merits a call to the cops for disturbing the police. What they're yelling is irrelevant. Punching them for calling you names merits jail time for *you.*

Similarly, (as a man) I believe only women should be the ones to vote on abortion laws, since it's they that will do ALL of the hard work, and they whose lives are potentially at risk. We (men) don't really get any say in my opinion.

So you support getting rid of child support payments for men who didn't want the babies? With no power comes no responsibility.

Which actually sorta gets us kinda back to the topic. If the US has no say in things, it has no responsibility for those things.
Back to the OT, I generally find upsetting and insulting your customers isn't conducive to good sales results.

A lesson that Disney is learning to its cost.
 
So you support getting rid of child support payments for men who didn't want the babies? With no power comes no responsibility.
No, if you read my comment, you'll note that I said "the ones to vote on abortion laws". Child support is an entirely different topic.
 
You know folks, these sorts of things happen now and again. Who knows what the global political landscape will look like in 3.5 years.

Me, I come here to talk and learn about flying things and such.
 
Agreed. But sometimes the law is an ass. This is a *thought* *control* law, and would be *massively* unconstitutional in the US. The UK can have whatever totalitarian laws it wants... and Americans can point at them and say "that sucks."
*Ahem* Oklahama want to punish protesters that disrupt religious services.... This would include people that stand outside of abortion clinics....
Those people standing and praying in silence is calling stalking. That is what the law is against, not oppression of their believes...
I don't know if you noticed it Scott, but the religious right is taking over your country.... So be careful out there....
 
Okay, okay, I don't know why you're pulling abortion rights in. But obviously, you can't convince each other, there's no point in arguing like this, sit down and calm down, let's get back to the topic.
 
As it should be. Someone yelling *anything* outside your house merits a call to the cops for disturbing the police. What they're yelling is irrelevant. Punching them for calling you names merits jail time for *you.*



So you support getting rid of child support payments for men who didn't want the babies? With no power comes no responsibility.

Which actually sorta gets us kinda back to the topic. If the US has no say in things, it has no responsibility for those things.


A lesson that Disney is learning to its cost.

President Trump is rearranging the world order. He is giving the rest of the world a very needed kick in the pants. Since the 1970s, the U.S. has been subsidizing the rest of the world. Which was fine during the Cold War. The Cold War is over.
 
Someone who's pregnant can't run away from the pregnancy
Someone who's NOT pregnant can also not run away from it, nor from 18 years worth of financial servitude afterwards. In any event, that's beside the point: if People Of Type A are murdering People Of Type B, People Of Type C can object.
 
Under US law, the only restriction on the freedom of speech is advocacy of violence and the like. Person A can shout "I hate Person B" all they want. "I want Person B to die" all day long. "Person B's politics/appearance/ideology/race/religion are ugly and stupid" as much as they like. This is as it should be.
That is no longer the case, I have been provided a long list of words that I am now banned from using. And I am merely a federal contractor... Federal workers have an even longer list of words that have been banned...
 
President Trump is rearranging the world order. He is giving the rest of the world a very needed kick in the pants.

Indeed. Note the freakout ongoing over Trump yapping about taking over Greenland and Canada. Everybody knows this is not going to happen. Everybody knows this is simply the way Trump negotiates. But it has ALREADY WORKED: Europe, which rolled over and exposed it's soft underbelly for a generation of violent invaders, suddenly decided to grow a pair. If Trump pretending to be the bad guy is what it takes for the home of Western Civilization to *finally* decide to defend itself, then, hey, great. If losing some military contracts now ensures that Europe remains a market for American products for the next century, rather than falling to invasion and a new dark age, then a small loss now is worth the fabulous riches to come.
 
That is no longer the case, I have been provided a long list of words that I am now banned from using. And I am merely a federal contractor... Federal workers have an even longer list of words that have been banned...
Banned from using in your private life, or banned from using in your job? The 1st Amendment does not cover your employer.
 
Indeed. Note the freakout ongoing over Trump yapping about taking over Greenland and Canada. Everybody knows this is not going to happen. Everybody knows this is simply the way Trump negotiates. But it has ALREADY WORKED: Europe, which rolled over and exposed it's soft underbelly for a generation of violent invaders, suddenly decided to grow a pair. If Trump pretending to be the bad guy is what it takes for the home of Western Civilization to *finally* decide to defend itself, then, hey, great. If losing some military contracts now ensures that Europe remains a market for American products for the next century, rather than falling to invasion and a new dark age, then a small loss now is worth the fabulous riches to come.

People always react consistently. Years of giving Europe carrots has been replaced with a stick. I think Donald Trump the man is partly uncivilized. President Trump is doing an excellent job. What did Europe, including the UK, do at the end of the Cold War? Anybody? They found ways to increase tourism and sell more goods. Not that they did not deserve a break from the constant threat of the Soviets moving west and blowing up London. So, allow me to repeat: EUROPE is upset because the United States is looking to address decades-long trade imbalances which have cost trillions of dollars. And, of course, no one in Europe was going to complain when the money was rolling in. A note about Britain. Someone in the House of Commons made a comment that "tariffs make us all poorer." Baloney. Pure balderdash. He should have thanked the United States for decades of cost-free economic support.

And yes, the Religious Left has been deposed. Their only weapon of choice is spreading false and misleading information. Anything, absolutely anything to regain control. Anything...
 
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If losing some military contracts now ensures that Europe remains a market for American products for the next century, rather than falling to invasion and a new dark age, then a small loss now is worth the fabulous riches to come.
The problem is that once bitten twice shy. Trump is ruining America's reputation by upsetting literally everyone. So why would anyone want to carry on doing business now or in the future? All of his antics are playing into Xi's hands. I don't think those riches you mention will be as fabulous as you make out. Well, except for all of Trump's business partners who are clearly in on the game plan.

I agree that Europe needed a kick up the backside. But there are much better ways of doing so that don't make the ROW's opinion of the USA backslide even further. In fact you could argue that the current game plan is going to create a more integrated Europe, with a stronger place in the world which the USA will have less sway over. So instead of a partner, a new competitor or even adversary is being unwittingly created.
 
To be honest, the factional division within the United States is indeed ... There are some serious. I thought it would be a bit serious, but I didn't expect it to be this level.Well, that's really off topic...
 
The problem is that once bitten twice shy. Trump is ruining America's reputation by upsetting literally everyone. So why would anyone want to carry on doing business now or in the future? All of his antics are playing into Xi's hands. I don't think those riches you mention will be as fabulous as you make out. Well, except for all of Trump's business partners who are clearly in on the game plan.

I agree that Europe needed a kick up the backside. But there are much better ways of doing so that don't make the ROW's opinion of the USA backslide even further. In fact you could argue that the current game plan is going to create a more integrated Europe, with a stronger place in the world which the USA will have less sway over. So instead of a partner, a new competitor or even adversary is being unwittingly created.

The answer is always the same: You can stop dealing with the United States altogether. Or, as President Trump stated, now is the time to negotiate.

Any other approach would have led to endless speeches. As someone in the French government said, It is time to stop making speeches and start making decisions.

European leaders know that America will come to their aid in a crisis, but now is the time to get their houses in order. Now.

And I am sick and tired of this crap and whining about China. OH. Everybody is going to call Xi. Everybody is going to beg for his help. Stop that crap.
 
The problem is that once bitten twice shy. Trump is ruining America's reputation by upsetting literally everyone.

I'm not upset. Lots of people in Britain and elsewhere are not upset... they're more upset with their own backstabbing anarcho-tyrannical governments.

So why would anyone want to carry on doing business now or in the future?

Profit. the main reason why anyone does business.

If Europe falls to the Caliphate, nobody will profit from that. Not the US, not the Europeans either fleeing or living under the thumb.
 
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