Sure anything is possible, but what is affordable? Making a large aircraft that could supercruise, would drive up the cost, and development, tremendously. Its not happening. The amount of thrust that could require, would mean an engine size and airframe, that would most likely not lend itself well to subsonic loiter.


There are other ways to get a warhead to a target, than a supercruising strategic bomber.
 
firepilot said:
Sure anything is possible, but what is affordable? Making a large aircraft that could supercruise, would drive up the cost, and development, tremendously. Its not happening. The amount of thrust that could require, would mean an engine size and airframe, that would most likely not lend itself well to subsonic loiter.


There are other ways to get a warhead to a target, than a supercruising strategic bomber.

Originally, the LRS program was very much focused on a supersonic bomber. At least partly this was the result of a RAND study:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1028.html
Which advocated a supercruising strategic bomber for a number of reasons. That lead to some of work on supersonic bombers and sonic boom suppression earlier in the decade. Cost and complexity, however, doomed that concept. Low level penetration was never seriously considered. This is a topic that has been studied to death, and there are very good reasons for using signature control and high altitude flight instead of low altitude penetration.
The supersonic, stealthy, supercruising bomber was impractical and far too costly. Thus we now have a family of complimentary systems under development.
 
To do the job with a familly of system you can have a medium bomber with supersonic dash speed, and why not asupersonic drone may be in order of mach 3 to fly ahead of the bombers to supress the first defense of the ennemy. There is a lot of works made by USAF on hypersonic since ten years. For the supersonic speed on a bomber you can have in ten year new engine like Advent project who can produce enough thrust to go supersonic.
 
dark sidius said:
and why not asupersonic drone may be in order of mach 3 to fly ahead of the bombers to supress the first defense of the ennemy.

Cruise missiles launched from naval vessels - see Libya.
 
It may yet ending up looking somewhat like this:

index.php
 
dark sidius said:
There is a need for speed to travel in the Pacific area the distance are very long at subsonic speed, a bomber with at least a supercruise capability must be very important to fight with China (for exemple), if you take a lot of hours to go you lose the capacity to shoot the mobile missile target, or plane on the runway.


A realistic supercruise is going to make little different countering highly mobile scoot and hide targets, in fact some USAF studies suggest anything less then mach 4 speed makes little difference and that's clearly not happening in a manned bomber right now. Trying to hit a specific plane on the runway is a complete non starter. That's why you use your bomber payload to blow up the entire airfield. A better and cheaper option for mobile targets is to design the bomber so it can loiter relatively close to target areas for long periods, then use a very fast missile to bridge the last ~100-200 miles. That way you only pay for a high speed weapon when you need a high speed weapon, instead of paying for the supersonic bomber to drop iron bombs on static stuff the rest of the time. Also if you want to counter mobile targets, a major element of the process is the sortie generation rate to constantly fly to counter them. A bomber sitting on the ramp being worked on is doing nobody good, and a supersonic aircraft is bound to require more maintenance hours and generate fewer sorties then a subsonic one. Its also bound to need more highly expensive tanker support. These are major reasons why the complex B-1 was never that successful compared to the B-52.
 
Enthusiasts Call For More, Faster US Bombers Mar 13, 2012
By Bill Sweetman

[/t][/t]

The U.S. Air Force talked until recently of just a 100-aircraft fleet of new bombers, but advocates are calling for more. Dave Deptula, the retired three-star general who headed reconnaissance programs for the armed service during recent wars, says that it’s easy to get to a 200-aircraft bomber fleet—with one 12-aircraft squadron for each of 10 air expeditionary forces, and other aircraft to support strategic deterrence and cover attrition and depot maintenance. Larger numbers would replace the entire existing B-1, B-2 and B-52 bomber fleet—which has a long life ahead of it but costs a lot to operate—and make for a better-structured production and block improvement program.



Airpower expert Rebecca Grant, launching a new report on the need for a bomber in February, argued that the USAF bomber should have a supersonic dash capability. While valuable—particularly in evading threats in the event of detection—that would call for new variable-cycle engines, and so far there has been no supersonic aircraft without vertical tails, which are taboo in terms of all-aspect stealth. The next few years will see a debate between enthusiasts and those calling for a “good enough” bomber program— the “80% solution” notion made famous by then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates during his efforts to rein in Pentagon acquisition issues—and particularly in view of the problems that have afflicted other major defense projects (see p. 30). The probability that the Air Force might get a new bomber took a definite uptick with the mid-2011 departure of Gates and the then-vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine Corps Gen. James Cartwright. Gates had terminated the original Next-Generation Bomber program in 2009, and Cartwright pushed the aircraft carrier-based unmanned combat vehicle as an alternative to a bomber. However, the defense guidance issued by the Obama administration in early January endorsed the Long Range Strike Bomber (LRS-B) as key to defeating anti-access/area denial (A2AD) threats, and in a document with a presidential signature —which makes the program fireproof as long as Barack Obama is president.


In itself, this action confirms that the Pentagon is convinced that stealth technology will defeat the toughest threats, well into this century. That is likely due to progress with an extremely stealthy UAV developed by Northrop Grumman under a classified program that started in 2008. The new UAV and LRS-B will be stealthy in themselves, but will also form part of an LRS family of systems, including stand-in electronic attack delivered from UAVs. The key to survival will be to locate threat radars—which can be done from well outside detection range—and to jam them, possibly with expendable systems or from outside targeting range. Even if radar can be developed to detect an extreme-stealth platform, it will not take much energy to prevent it from doing so. The UAVs provide the ability to search large areas, without using un-stealthy systems and undesirable levels of radar power. The manned aircraft provides human supervision and connectivity, operating within line-of-sight of the UAVs. The crew’s presence makes loss of communications less critical than it might be with an all-unmanned force. Another reason for the bomber’s resurgence is concern about the ability and motivation of rivals and adversaries to pursue A2AD strategies, with the aim of preventing U.S. forces from intervening in their regions. China’s alleged “carrier-killer” DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) has become the symbol of these threats. The ASBM cover a large expanse of ocean from launch points inside the “red bubble” of denied airspace that is covered by a high-end surface-to-air missile system. Mobility protects the ASBM launcher and the surface-to-air system from long-range missile attack. Because they pose a direct threat to friendly forces, it is important to be able to carry out an immediate strike assessment and confirm their destruction. Both attributes make them LRS-B targets. A defensive directed-energy weapon (DEW) is another option for the new bomber. Nobody today is in a position to guarantee delivery of a practical airborne microwave or laser DEW. However, the quadrangle of DEW technology —range, lethality, power and cooling requirements, and weight—suggests that a bomber-defense system, capable of destroying an incoming missile or disrupting its guidance, would be the first practical airborne DEW. The 2013 budget request asked that the LRS program receive $292 million. The total through 2017 is $6.3 billion. Pentagon comptroller Robert Hale suggests a per-unit cost target of $550 million per aircraft. “We see it as an important goal,” Hale said. “I’d like to treat it as absolutely [hard and] fast.”
 
In this article she speak about a supersonic dash speed to enable the plane escape the radars. With variable cycle engine it will be possible. I think the orientation and why its so classified, is because the new bomber will have new capabilities and very secret airframe and engines for the moment we will see appear a stealth supersonic bomber good news.
 
firepilot said:
Going low is not going to happen, because then range disappears. If all one had to do was go low, we could just use B-1Bs and B-52s for low altitude penetration.


Nor is it about speed. A bomber going supersonic, for example Mach 2, is not going to be all that much more immune from a SAM launch that one going 450 knots. An SR-71, if it was still around, could be doing M3 at 80,000 ft, and is still vulnerable to surface to air missiles if it overflew enemy territory. It would be a harder target, but not an impossible one by any means.


All indications are that the next generation bomber will be a high altitude subsonic penetrator, with loiter capability. Its role is not going to be just to dash in and destroy a known target, but to loiter at high altitude for hours, look for more targets, and have an extensive sensor/EW capability to attack electronically also.


Its an old concept, that does not fit well into modern conflights, for a strategic bomber to dash low to a pre-defined target, take it out and get the heck out. This aircraft will have a much broader role, to include intel, EW, recon, etc in addition to destroying targets. And to do that, it needs to be up high and to stay there for awhile.

1) I agree that a Mach 2 cruise ability is useless for a bomber. Can you imagine the heat signature? If it it's crusing at Mach 2, then its gotta' be over 40k ft, and its going to be visible to every IR sensor in town. Even the SR-71 was vulerable in its day, and the only reason it was never shot down is because each and every sortie was planned using 100s of man hours spent analyzing flight route, known SAM locations, ect ect... A bomber with 2/3 the speed and altitude with far, far less mission planning is dead meat. Might as well re-open the Concorde line and add a weapons bay.
2) The days of loiter for hours inside enemy turf, at high/medium altitude, making sweeping 5000ft radius turns... those days are over as well unless you're talking about Afganistan or Kenya. A B-2 certainly cannot loiter of Iran or China for hours, in broad daylight (or at night), and expect to be invisible. Loiter time is very important, since the new bomber is going to double in CAS roles.
3) Just because a bomber *can* dash in at low altitude and high airspeed does *not* mean that it cannot loiter like a Spirit/Buff does today. The Bone and can loiter, and has done so famously in Iraq and Afganistan, and it can also drop down to the deck and burn JP like know ones business at it hits mach 1 - The Buffs/Spirits cannot do this.
If you're banking 500million/airframe on a flying wing just because it can loiter at altitude and remain invisisble... that's a huge, gigantic gamble that for the 20-30 years it will be in service that it will *always* remain invisible. That's simply 100% in error. The plane needs to be stealthy, like the flying wing people want to see, but it also needs to be adaptable when (not if, but when) the game changes and it's no longer stealthy to the new systems to counter stealth aircraft. When (not if, but when) the game changes and all you're got is a high and slow flying wing, then your entire force is nullified, and you've spent 100s of billions of $$$ on something that can't adapt to the new threats.
The new bomber simply, must have low altitude and high speed penetration abilities. That will do nothing to take away from loitering at 40k ft for hours and hours, but also adds flexibility and adaptability for when (if its not already) a whole new ball game and slow stealthy bombers are no longer quite so stealthy as imagined.
Putting all your eggs (and dollars and years od R&D) into one basket of a flying wing for medium/high altitude slow flight is extremely foolish.
 
Rebecca Grant spoke about supersonic for evading threats, B-2 is to slow and can't do the job well in new defense system. I think of a two seat medium bomber much like a stealthy F-111, with new engines may be a kind of combined cycle turbines, to go rapidly on the theater and after evade with supersonic speed. And what kind of drone super stealthy they speak in Aviation week?
 
Thank you Quellfish for the Rand study. It was eye opening in support of mach 2, basing, and payload. ..believe the B-1 has such maintainence costs, bad sortie numbers for various reasons (some political) which would likely not be the case in new system. Appears mach 2 dash, if not supercruise, mentioned in the Rand study is necessary, but also hypersonic (Mach 4-5) missiles would be a must. Likewise, some sort of family of UAS (some cheap, some expensive) given where IADS/DEW are headed would be essential...Problem 1 Wow, this all sounds very expensive. Problem 2- w/ the family of nations all seeking 'da bomb' w/o the above mentioned Trump Card (not that one please) chaos will prevail. ICBMS & SLBMS in the 'proliferated world' of 2030 are not a realistically flexible response. Problem 3-There is little understanding in the West of the need for a maximized military industrial base to cost effectively meet the 'proliferated future'. Problem 4-In order for Problem 3 to be solved primarily via small business innovation, the price gouging, (Corporate communist ie non -competitive government capture tactics, and overhead intense bureaucracy) major system integrators would need to be restructured and or absorbed by governments w/ an incentivized pay system to maintain innovation. Restructuring would, in the end, not be anti-competitive as it would enhance the value of each and many individual spin-offs. Non-competitive components would fade as part natural business evolution rather than serving as corporate welfare vaccums as they do now.
 
dark sidius said:
And what kind of drone super stealthy they speak in Aviation week?

The speculative kind? Last year it was a Northrop NGB demonstrator.
 
Wee see nothing last year on Northrop NGB demonstrator? You speak about the X-47 or something else?
 
dark sidius said:
Wee see nothing last year on Northrop NGB demonstrator?
this means that all goes according to p.10 in plans!
 
dark sidius said:
Wee see nothing last year on Northrop NGB demonstrator? You speak about the X-47 or something else?

In 2008 it was reported that Northrop had a sole source USAF contract for an NGB demonstrator, which brought $2B in revenue into the Integrated Systems division:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/DTI-Bomber.xml

The current reporting on a "classified Northrop UAV" appears to be the same story, but instead of an NGB demonstrator, it is a UAV project.



Activity at several Northrop and USAF locations, as well as budget and funding information, personnel movement, job postings, indicate the Northrop has several smaller classified programs in various stages rather than one (or two, or three) large ones. Much of the money that Integrated Systems was getting through "restricted programs" could be accounted for from known DoD accounts and activities.
 
Yes i'm agree but Mr Donley say it will be a competition for the LRS-B? Or if Northrop make a secret UAV its just a part of the familly of sytem, and we can have a chance to see a Lockheed or a Boeing new bomber winning the competition.
 
Hello, on a possibly related subject: patches.


Here are two of them, worth of interest which will find a place when a timeline is reconstructed.


(1) The Air Combat Command (ACC) patch was issued prior june 2009 at which time it showed up on the web.
Its latin inscription "Si Ego Certiorem Facial Mihi Tu Delendus Eris" translates as "If I Tell You I will have to Kill You" (or rather, "to delete you from Earth").


(2) The older Tactical Air Command (TAC) "Advanced Programs" patch was issued prior june 2006 at which time it was posted ion the web. In this context, DRB would stand for "Defense Review Board".


Both patches exhibit silhouettes of interest.


Hopes this helps.
 

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Analysis of new bomber

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2012/03/26/8498/will-55-billion-bomber-program-fly
 

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The Air combat command patch is very interesting the airframes are innovative may be there is a relation with the work on the new bomber.
 
Matej said:
I am missing the point of the second infographics. 30 million for one B-52? I want to buy a few for that price.

Jump in your time machine back to 1960. ;) I guarantee a new-built one today would cost a bit more.
 
antigravite said:
Both patches exhibit silhouettes of interest.
well, second one is definitely resembles me this...
 

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dark sidius said:
The Air combat command patch is very interesting the airframes are innovative may be there is a relation with the work on the new bomber.

Not only aircraft pictures get faked !
 
sferrin said:
Jump in your time machine back to 1960. ;) I guarantee a new-built one today would cost a bit more.

Thats it. 3 billion for one B-2? Including what - food for security dog around factory? The whole image is pointless.
 
Matej said:
sferrin said:
Jump in your time machine back to 1960. ;) I guarantee a new-built one today would cost a bit more.

Thats it. 3 billion for one B-2? Including what - food for security dog around factory? The whole image is pointless.

What are you talking about? The subject was $30 million B-52s not $3 billion B-2s.
 
flateric said:
antigravite said:
Both patches exhibit silhouettes of interest.
well, second one is definitely resembles me this...
Flateric, your memory deserves kudos. You may be right, and far more than I initially expected. Prompting me to do more homework... It appears that TAC was inactivated on June 1st, 1992. Its personnel and equipment were transferred thence to the newly-formed Air Combat Command (ACC). Although posted in 2006 on a website fully dedicated to Air Force patches, this patch was obviously issued in 1992 at the latest. While I personally believe it relates to Next Gen Bomber Studies, we should tag it as "historical" material, not current-event stuff.

The other (ACC) patch would thus have been produced sometime between 1992 and 2009. This spans 17 years. Too long a period to connect to any specific project, unless anything more concrete comes out of darkness -- which I seriously doubt.
 
Matej said:
Thats it. 3 billion for one B-2? Including what - food for security dog around factory? The whole image is pointless.

That $3 billion figure includes a ton of the development and production costs, etc...spread over 21 airframes. The super-small production run is what drives the cost up.
 
SOC said:
Matej said:
Thats it. 3 billion for one B-2? Including what - food for security dog around factory? The whole image is pointless.

That $3 billion figure includes a ton of the development and production costs, etc...spread over 21 airframes. The super-small production run is what drives the cost up.

Yep. And if they'd only built one it'd have been like $60 billion and people would be complaining because, "good God, it's that expensive and it doesn't even have antigravity and warp speed capability?"
 
Conventional First: The Air Force is designing its future bomber to strike targets deep in enemy territory with conventional munitions and the nuclear deterrence mission is not driving the aircraft's requirements, Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told reporters in Washington, D.C., Thursday. "I think the important part here is to recognize that we are building this airplane for conventional long-range strike," said Donley. "This is the first airplane of this class that has been built for that purpose. It will be nuclear-capable, but [with] the B-2 and all of the bombers that came before it, the focus was the nuclear mission," he added. The value of conventional long-range strike "is well-recognized and that is where we are focusing the capability," he said. Donley said there has been no decision when the bomber—which is scheduled to enter the fleet in the mid 2020s—would incorporate the nuclear mission. But the Air Force is intent on "building in" early on the components that the aircraft would need on the nuclear side so as to "avoid longer term costs," he said.
 
We have very few informations available on this plane, we know they design to strike deep in ennemy territory how can they do that? there is no pictures or concept available on this new plane. What size? what speed? what kind of weapons supersonic or hypersonic? I m very impatient to see the first prototype in flight in the white world.
 
Cost Worries Could Derail Plan for Next Bomber to Be Unmanned: U.S. General
May 10, 2012 By Elaine M. Grossman Global Security Newswire

A U.S. B-2 strategic bomber, shown in January. Building an unmanned version of a future bomber aircraft could be unaffordable, the head of Air Force Global Strike Command signaled on Thursday (AP Photo/Mark Terrill). WASHINGTON -- Making the nation’s future bomber aircraft capable of flying by remote control could prove unaffordable, a senior U.S. Air Force general said on Thursday (see GSN, April 26). Cost considerations are “probably going to make it difficult to afford an unmanned solution up front,” Lt. Gen. James Kowalski, who heads the Air Force Global Strike Command, told a breakfast event audience on Capitol Hill. “I think that would be a real challenge for industry.” This was a surprising revelation about a planned key feature of the Air Force’s top-priority, new weapon system: the ability for a Long Range Strike aircraft to be “optionally manned,” flying either with or without a pilot in the cockpit.

Defense Department leaders have imposed a $550-million-per-unit cost cap on the service’s next-generation stealth bomber, which is to be capable of operating inside hotly contested enemy airspace. The price ceiling is part of a broader effort to curb long-term military spending. The Air Force’s top officer, Gen. Norton Schwartz, has said his service understands that if the new bomber exceeds the half-a-billion-dollar price tag, the program risks being canceled (see GSN, March 1). The first such aircraft is to be fielded during the 2020s, according to the service. “Right now we’re going through that process of determining [the bomber’s required performance] parameters,” Kowalski said. “I think what we will discover is that [cost] may, in fact, be what drives us in terms of the trade space on manned and unmanned [capability].” For years, the Air Force resisted embracing unmanned aircraft, preferring instead the extra measure of awareness and control that pilots might bring to the cockpit. Service leaders have since warmed to the benefits offered by remotely piloted drones, particularly given the central role these aircraft have come to play in gathering intelligence and targeting extremists abroad. “That’s a great idea if you want to save some money up front,” Hans Kristensen, who heads the Federation of American Scientists’ Nuclear Information Program, said of the Air Force move to reconsider a pilotless version of the bomber. “There’s no doubt it would cost more to have both pilots and unmanned -- you have double capability.” If the Air Force must choose between a manned or unmanned version of the bomber, it is no surprise that it would opt for maintaining a capacity for pilots onboard, he said.


“There are just too many missions for which it would be inconceivable to kick the pilot out of the cockpit, nuclear delivery being one of them,” Kristensen said. One long-valued benefit to a nuclear-armed bomber is that, unlike a missile, it could be recalled while en route to its target; a preprogrammed drone, by contrast, could potentially diminish the role of human judgment or control. Not every issue expert supports this potential scaling back of the bomber’s capabilities. Baker Spring, a national security policy research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, called a manned-only Long Range Strike bomber a “bad idea.” “The Air Force should be permitted to explore the full range of options,” he told Global Security Newswire. “This points out why the Obama administration’s projected defense budgets, even absent sequestration, are inadequate.” The 2011 Budget Control Act mandates a roughly $450 billion cut in defense spending over the next decade. That amount could more than double under the sequester process if lawmakers do not by the end of this year reverse the legislation’s demand for $1.2 trillion in additional government-wide reductions. For the bomber aircraft, Spring speculated that the “cost of exploring the option of an unmanned version could be relatively modest. Under certain circumstances, I could see it adding less than 2 percent to the total acquisition cost for the program.” Air Force officials have not said how expensive the overall program might be or how many aircraft they would seek to buy. Based on the per-plane cost limit, Spring estimated that the price to procure 100 of the new bombers could run roughly $50 billion. “Anybody who thinks that’ll be the final price is going to be very surprised,” Kristensen opined. Kowalski, whose Louisiana-based command oversees nuclear-capable bombers and ICBMs, also defended his service’s decision to certify the future bomber first for conventional operations, and only later allow the aircraft to deliver nuclear munitions.


The House Armed Services Committee this week prepared a fiscal 2013 defense authorization bill for debate on the chamber floor that would instead require the nuclear-capable bomber to gain Defense Department certification for potential use in atomic combat upon initial fielding. Kowalski said this would be a more expensive path and could delay getting a vital conventional capability in hand.


“If you look back at the history of our bombers … none of them came off [production lines] and were certified in both nuclear and conventional” missions when first introduced into the fleet, even during the Cold War, the three-star general said. “I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say, ‘Well, if we’re going to have it come off the line and be certified in one or the other first, what is probably the most pressing?’” said Kowalski. “I look at the range of military operations that the combatant commanders want, and I say probably conventional is the most pressing.”
 
Schwartz Expects New Bomber Fielded by Mid 2020s:


In his final appearance for Pentagon reporters as Chief of Staff, Gen. Norton Schwartz on July 24 offered up a full-throated defense of the Air Force's next-generation long-range strike platform, and contended that the Air Force will field assets by next decade. Schwartz said the Air Force had worked hard to convince the Office of the Secretary of Defense that the capability was "needed for the nation" and the ability to place targets at risk is "an American strong suit, largely performed" by the service. Schwartz made it clear that he expects a combat-capable aircraft delivered by the middle of next decade. "We've talked about beginning to field the platform in the mid [20]20s," he said. "There are requirements and we are going to pursue this program in a very disciplined fashion, and do it in a way that capitalizes on already proven technologies" in aircraft manufacturing, sensors, and avionics integration, he added. Any future "family of systems" long-range strike concept depends on this capability, argued Schwartz. "Extending a sense of vulnerability on others is a tool of statecraft and one we should not concede," he said.
 
XP67_Moonbat said:

Well, other than the "completely" part.
http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2013/AirForce/stamped/0604015F_4_PB_2013.pdf

LRS-B has it's own PE code ( 0604015F) and it's funding levels are public. While the program details are being reported in the special access program report, 0604015F itself is not a being treated as a special access program.

In contrast, PE
0301359A"Special Army Program" is an example of an "entirely" classified program with a public PE code.
 
All we know is the LRS-B is a special access programm and there is no technical characteristics available. We have just to make suppositions on this plane.
 
I could see the application of these blown moustaches and flaps on a similarly shaped (but not similarly sized) planform that had to.... oh I dunno....say take off and land on a carrier. :p

However their application to the next generation bomber would, at first glance, seem to unnecessarily add weight and complexity... unless stealth requirements end up dictatating a planform that is an absolute pig to fly at low speeds??
 
cool find. Reminds me of the 'moustaches' on the proposed Mirage for the Swiss AF
 
All things being equal, no tailless platform can be trimmed to achieve the same Clmax as a conventional (or even canard) layout. This technology looks to be like a natty way to square the circle of laden take-off performance and approach speed. A further advantage is that [relative to a pure tailless layout] one could reduce wing area (tailless platforms generally need lower wing loadings to compensate for the lower Clmax) - with the attendant signature reduction that would bring.

Maybe it's an unlikely scenario but - What if low RCS has failed you and suddenly it's 'maneouvering time'? Pop the canards out you'll turn a darn sight tighter...
 

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