US Joint Heavy Lift

LowObservable said:
I see the enemy is dropping his forces 30 km behind the battle line with a wing of giant tilt-rotors...
That system and others like it are exactly why going to the most documented piece of real estate in any country (i.e. airports) to do an intial entry is very very bad. I have listened to former Ranger Battalion Commanders explain in excruciating detail how easy it is to keep the USAF from landing at an airport. You don't need anything near that fancy to do the trick either.
 
Hi,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20080047462_2008046447.pdf
 

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That's the kind of aircraft, you can use for an invasion by forces,
which pass customs clearance and then conquer all pubs around ... ;)

Like the invasion of Mallorca by the germans ! :D
 
Thank you my dear Jemiba,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20080047713_2008046459.pdf
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

http://128.102.216.35/factsheets/category.php

Hi,

http://www.combatreform.com/nextchinook.htm
 

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Not Combatreform.com! I'm not sure if I've had to say this here before or not, but though that site sometimes has some interesting historical pictures and tidbits of history I would take everything else ((like this)) with a grain of salt the size of the moon. The man who runs that site is probably a bit unstable, Last time I asked him a question about one of his 'theories' he called me some things that'd be heavily censored on this forum. I have a feeling those are his drawings, as he spends most of his times coming up with his 'brilliant ideas' and either making crude models of various concepts and so on.

Bottom line? This probably has very little basis in reality, which is true of most of the stuff on his website. http://home.comcast.net/~genericdad/m113gavin.html is the low-down on the webmaster, not related to the discussion of JHL though but this guy has mislead a lot of people.

Just trying to do a public service.
 
If anyone wants proof that Mike Sparks, the Combat Reform/Gavin proponent should be taken with a grain (or boulder) of salt, look no further:
http://www.geocities.com/roswell.geo/

He has several websites but that one is WAY out there...
 
I have no problem to name a M-113 Gavin or with the idea that maybe the modern m-113 the mvtl is better then the stryker but the most variants of the m-113 other nation uses are to havy to be transported in a c-130 and sparks fails to see this.
 
V8Interceptor said:
If anyone wants proof that Mike Sparks, the Combat Reform/Gavin proponent should be taken with a grain (or boulder) of salt, look no further:

File under R for "Rogue Helicopter Pilot"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA1hyqA6UTY
 
Now that is funny - I see a Saturday Night Live skit in the future....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
picard-headesk.jpg


He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one would have a chance to interrupt it was really quite hypnotic

Emphasis on "moving from topic to topic"
 
Hi,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920004713_1992004713.pdf
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920004713_1992004713.pdf

??? Not sure how this applies.

Before today's budget decisions start the death watch. There is still a requirement to air maneuver medium weight forces... they just won't weight as much as the FCS was looking. This is good news cause now we can go back to smaller weights for the aircraft.
 
The new AvWeek quotes gen. Ross Thompson (army acquisition chief) as saying " the envisioned aircraft will provide a heavy lift, 20-plus ton, payload capability"

questioned about whether the 30-ton requirement was dropped, gen. Davis said "the requirement is 20 tons give or take."
 
Personally I think the requirement should be enough to carry one FCS vehicle (if we produce them).
 
I wonder if a decrease in payload requirements is not a way of opening a backdoor to C-130XL.
I'm not a proponent of it (as awesome as the C-130 basic design is, the aviation afficionado in me would like to see something more exciting than a warmed up 55-years old design in its n-th incarnation), but it certainly would be more straightforward than a VTOL QTR.
Just a thought.
 
Lampshade111 said:
Personally I think the requirement should be enough to carry one FCS vehicle (if we produce them).
Given that the just annnounced defense cuts cancel the FCS vehicles I would imagine that the Styker dimensions/weights will drive the nominal requirements for this program...
 
Well we have to see which of those cuts pass through congress. Personally I hope the F-22A and possibly some of the FCS vehicles are saved.
 
Any news on the progress of this program, new concept art, designs, or rumors?

Is stealth a factor in this program, like a few past transport projects?
 
Hi,

here is a heavy lift slowed-rotor compound helicopter.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090022379_2009022167.pdf
 

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LowObservable said:
The ATTT in its various incarnations has been the only serious tilt-wing (???) study in the 1990s, and was aimed at SSTOL rather than VSTOL for the reasons discussed earlier (by the time you're handling a lot of big VTOLs you've got enough space for a runway).

http://www.air-and-space.com/Rutan.htm

It demonstrated our ability to perform a challenging aerodynamic and structural design, and to build, test, and deliver what amounted to two different (68% scale) manned research airplanes, including all design and flight test data, to DARPA for less than 3 million dollars, including all recurring and nonrecurring costs.

http://www.scaled.com/projects/ATTT.html

Obviously not expensive, wasteful or protracted enough for the Pentagon and their friends. ;D

Cheers, Woody

PS: Do US patents cover Russia?

PPS: Burt rocks!
 

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ATT (advanced tactical transport) included the Boeing "Super Frog" and later "Super Lobster" (The tiltwings LO was referring to). They are discussed elsewhere on the forum.
 
ATTT (or AT3) had nothing to do with ATT and was a much earlier program.
 
Right. To clarify any residual confusion:

ATTT = Rutan twin boom STOL design
ATT = Boeing large cargo tiltwing concept circa 2002-2004
 
To confuse the clarification, ATT was also a generic USAF name for a C-130 replacement in the early 1990s, although I don't think it ever got as far as an RFI.
 
From Defense News:

DoD: U.S. Needs Stealthy Airlifter
By JOHN T. BENNETT
Published: 8 March 2010 PRINT | EMAIL

By the 2020s, U.S. special-forces troops will need a stealthy new airlifter to sneak past ever-improving radar and missile systems into "denied areas," says the Pentagon's top civilian special operations official.

"At some point, serious consideration will need to be given to the development and fielding of a more survivable, long-range SOF [special operations forces] air mobility platform that exploits advances in signature reduction and electronic attack," Michael Vickers, assistant U.S. defense secretary for special operations, low-intensity conflict and interdependent capabilities, said during a March 4 interview at the Pentagon. "We don't have to decide today" what to buy, but the 2014 Quadrennial Defense Review probably "will have to look at this pretty hard."

Currently, U.S. special operators use a mix of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft, like modified C-130 transports, to move by air.

While it's too early to determine what a new stealth transporter might look like or how much it would cost, Vickers said "it will be expensive" and look less like a modified C-130 and more like a traditional stealth aircraft. He also said the need for range would force it to operate from land bases, not ships.

The Pentagon flies stealthy F-22 fighters and B-2 bombers, but the development of a radar-avoiding airlifter could require a radically different design.

"This is a tough one," said Ronald Epstein, an analyst at Banc of America Securities-Merrill Lynch. "You have to carry a lot of weight."

The most likely choice, Epstein said, is a blended-wing aircraft. A NASA fact sheet shows a concept for a blended-wing airliner that resembles a flying wing with a thick airfoil-shaped fuselage section.

But Epstein said a flying wing design "wouldn't give you the volume you need, especially to get all the gear in with them."

Another option might be a swing wing that would look like a B-2 bomber in flight, and then could "swing to look more like a C-130 for the insertion part," Epstein said.

Several Pentagon veterans and defense analysts said they agree about the need for a stealthy insertion plane in an era of improving air defenses.

"The issue for the SOF community, however, has been, and remains, cost," said Barry Watts, a former director of the Pentagon's Program Evaluation and Analysis directorate who now is an analyst at Washington's Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. "I am skeptical that the SOF community will find the funding to procure the kind of insertion platform they need."

But Pentagon leaders appear determined to stay ahead of potential adversaries who are improving their ability to keep U.S. forces at bay.

Just weeks ago, the 2010 QDR declared weapons and vehicles that can break through or outmaneuver anti-access systems are "funda-mental to the nation's ability to protect its interests and to provide security in key regions."

The drive to create this arsenal will reshape DoD spending discussions, said Peter Huessy, a defense and national security consultant.

"I think the major debate within the defense budget over the next five years will come in" the anti-access realm, Huessy said.

For the next few years, U.S. special operations forces will use their modified C-130s and helicopters to go where their secret missions send them. But a decade hence, defenses will be much more able to lock onto the planes' radar, infrared, and acoustic signatures.

"The air defense environments are becoming so threatening, particularly because of these advanced, double-digit [surface-to-air missiles], that it's driving our air forces - Navy and Air Force - to signature reduction and electronic attack to penetrate those defenses," Vickers said. "So, at some point, if I ... also want to insert SOF in, or if I can only put in a B-2 or its successor, then I'm kidding myself if I think a clever C-130 is going to get in there with terrain-following radar."

Watts concurred. "Mike's right: An upgraded C-130 isn't going to get the job done in the face of double-digit SAMs."

Vickers said the new aircraft will not likely resemble today's MC-130s. "If you want the signature reduction, it would have to look more like stealth aircraft," he said.

Not all things will be possible. For instance, he said, "you would make tradeoffs between payload and a number of things to maximize the survivability aspects of the aircraft. You may not get the short takeoff or landing on hard strips that we would like to see."

Vickers said the Pentagon might also decide to buy a variety of aircraft to meet SOF needs. A long-range, stealthy insertion airplane would not be needed "everywhere in the world, so you might have a high-low mix," he said. "But if I say, 'I want to put them into this area where only the leading edge of air power is going,' I would need corresponding technology."

"Not every contingency by any stretch will require these capabilities; just [a] small set," he said. "But when you need it, you need it."

PURPOSE-BUILT AIRLIFTER?
Today's special-forces airlifters are generally upgraded versions of military airlifters, but "the idea of taking a transport aircraft that moves GPFs [general-purpose forces] around and then modifying that may be coming to an end," Vickers said.

Nevertheless, he said his special operations/low-intensity shop would closely follow relevant technology work elsewhere in DoD.

"A SOF program would probably follow on larger efforts in this realm, taking advantage of work the services have done elsewhere so it might not take us as long as [it] takes them," Vickers said.

Still, such a development effort is "typically, a decade or so of effort," he said.

U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command has been studying possible stealthy airlifters for years as part of its M-X program. And several major U.S. defense firms from time to time have floated conceptual solutions.

Vickers added that the next-generation SOF airlifter will likely fly from ground bases, not ships, because of the ranges involved.

"These [enemy] capabilities and the variety of them can push you out further, and threaten your close-in bases. And then when you try to penetrate, they've got all these defenses that make life tough for you there," he said. "Depending on their geographic depth and where the target is, you compound your problem in that you've got to go a long way. That range problem ... generally drives you to land-based."

Still, he said, for missions like taking out "coastal targets, then a sea-based capability might make sense."

Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute, said big-ticket acquisition programs could make SOF less attractive to Washington. "Political appointees have been enamored with SOF throughout this decade," he said, but "once SOF starts demanding big money for items like stealthy insertion aircraft, its appeal will wane."

What's more, Thompson said, as acquisition program costs grow, so does congressional poking around for details on how federal funds are being spent.

"As the budgetary footprint of SOF grows," he said, "legislators will want to know more, and that could lead to controversy about the role of such capabilities in our overall defense posture."
 
Well, once the new bomber starts coming online around that time, maybe they can refurbish the B-2s? Redesign the center body to carry troops/cargo and seal off the weapons bays and make them fuel tanks. Or just design SOF pods to fit within the bomb bays that can carry troops. Sort of like those attachments they put on some subs to carry seal teams. Of course, I haven't checked the size/depth of the weapons bay to see if someone can sit in the space available. Maybe they would have to remove the doors and allow the "capsule" to bulge out of the bottom of the wing, similar to what LM was planning for some versions of the FB-22.
 
Sundog, in the article, they said that a BWB doesn't provide an appropriate volume, I wonder if the b-2 would? Secondly, if u gonna do special ops, where would the b-2 land o unload the troops?
 
donnage99 said:
Sundog, in the article, they said that a BWB doesn't provide an appropriate volume, I wonder if the b-2 would? Secondly, if u gonna do special ops, where would the b-2 land o unload the troops?

And what happens to the fancy, expensive "stealth" coatings the first time you do a rough field landing?
 
donnage99 said:
Sundog, in the article, they said that a BWB doesn't provide an appropriate volume, I wonder if the b-2 would? Secondly, if u gonna do special ops, where would the b-2 land o unload the troops?

While your quote from the article is accurate, aren't there some BWB designs meant to carry 800+ passengers? Is this not enough volume? I would like to see a BWB tanker, air to ground mother ship loaded with Rattlers and Hyflys and X-51s (or about 500, 250lbs GPS guided bombs) and a BWB counter missile, counter air mother ship loaded with NCADEs, Patriots, AMRAAMs and a couple of HELLADS turrets. All protected by F-22s and getting targeting information from super stealthy UCAVs operating deep inside enemy airspace. Oh to dream :D
 
Sundog said:
Well, once the new bomber starts coming online around that time, maybe they can refurbish the B-2s? Redesign the center body to carry troops/cargo and seal off the weapons bays and make them fuel tanks. Or just design SOF pods to fit within the bomb bays that can carry troops. Sort of like those attachments they put on some subs to carry seal teams. Of course, I haven't checked the size/depth of the weapons bay to see if someone can sit in the space available. Maybe they would have to remove the doors and allow the "capsule" to bulge out of the bottom of the wing, similar to what LM was planning for some versions of the FB-22.

During the early 90s, the Russians were showing off a pod that could fit in their bombers that was to carry a small group of disaster relief workers. The pod was air dropped to the disaster site, and was equipped with seating derived from the Soyuz landing module couches.
I'm not saying this is a good idea for SOF, but it was an interesting concept. Theoretically it would have some advantages for very specific conditions. You could load said pod and your precious cargo onto a high speed platform that would have inflight refuelling capability, and that may dramatically shorten how long it takes to respond to certain events. If you needed an expert on site ASAP, that may be a solution (for example, a NEST advance team).

I still don't know that I buy the idea that SOF needs (or will get) a stealthy airlifter to replace the MC-130, but I may not be understanding the threat correctly. It's also possible that a specific mission is in mind for this requirement.

I wonder if the rotary wing activity at the TPECR and Site 4 has anything to do with this. Over the past 2 years V-22s and other... things have been working the threat ranges there. I do not know if the V-22s were AF or someone else's , some had refueling booms, some not.
 
sferrin said:
And what happens to the fancy, expensive "stealth" coatings the first time you do a rough field landing?

That's true of any stealth design.

Although, I should have clarified, I only meant it as an airdrop, whether it's the whole pod, or just a door they skydive out of, possibly at higher alt.

Although, regarding the BWB, I do see this possibly happening, as a combination mulit-role aircraft, as we've seen in all of those design studies from Boeing. However, it will be interesting to see how a military BWB is pursued, because I could see Boeing pursuing it as a replacement for the 737 as well, to give you an idea of the size I think they will try to meet. So, how they would incorporate "stealth" and still use most of the major components to meet civil requirements would be interesting.
 
BWB, as admitted by its inventors Bob Liebeck and Mark Page, makes sense in large sizes only for passenger carriage. Something that has to do with humans not fitting well inside the profile of an airfoil unless you make it really large. The smallest BWB considered by Liebeck carried 211 pax.

Things like fuel are very happy to conform to whatever shape you have, however, so i don't see why you couldn't design a dedicated BWB tanker.
 
Sundog said:
sferrin said:
And what happens to the fancy, expensive "stealth" coatings the first time you do a rough field landing?

That's true of any stealth design.

Although, I should have clarified, I only meant it as an airdrop, whether it's the whole pod, or just a door they skydive out of, possibly at higher alt.

Although, regarding the BWB, I do see this possibly happening, as a combination mulit-role aircraft, as we've seen in all of those design studies from Boeing. However, it will be interesting to see how a military BWB is pursued, because I could see Boeing pursuing it as a replacement for the 737 as well, to give you an idea of the size I think they will try to meet. So, how they would incorporate "stealth" and still use most of the major components to meet civil requirements would be interesting.

BWB isn't a stealth design though, it's just a flying wing. At times I wonder if they TRY to come up with the most needlessly expensive way to do a thing. We need a stealthy, one-off (i.e. expensive) cargo plane (or tanker) like we need another hole in the head. A BWB tanker, sure, a stealthy one? Why? We can't even buy the cheap, non-stealthy stuff without blowing holes in budgets, who in their right mind thinks a stealth cargo plane would be anything other than an unmitigated cluster----?
 
sferrin said:
Sundog said:
sferrin said:
And what happens to the fancy, expensive "stealth" coatings the first time you do a rough field landing?

That's true of any stealth design.

Although, I should have clarified, I only meant it as an airdrop, whether it's the whole pod, or just a door they skydive out of, possibly at higher alt.

Although, regarding the BWB, I do see this possibly happening, as a combination mulit-role aircraft, as we've seen in all of those design studies from Boeing. However, it will be interesting to see how a military BWB is pursued, because I could see Boeing pursuing it as a replacement for the 737 as well, to give you an idea of the size I think they will try to meet. So, how they would incorporate "stealth" and still use most of the major components to meet civil requirements would be interesting.

BWB isn't a stealth design though, it's just a flying wing. At times I wonder if they TRY to come up with the most needlessly expensive way to do a thing. We need a stealthy, one-off (i.e. expensive) cargo plane (or tanker) like we need another hole in the head. A BWB tanker, sure, a stealthy one? Why? We can't even buy the cheap, non-stealthy stuff without blowing holes in budgets, who in their right mind thinks a stealth cargo plane would be anything other than an unmitigated cluster----?

I agree completely. Hell, by the same token,the way a bomber program always ends up as the "Red Headed Step Child" of the USAF, I would ask Boeing to develop a B-52 replacement based on using the wings and empennage of either a 767, probably the wings from the long range -400, or the 777, but make a new fuselage to make a bomber. I don't mean as a B-2 replacement, I mean to do what the B-52's do, stand off weapons launch, and they could also make the ECM version the USAF wants, but we need something newer and more efficient than the B-52s. I say that, because when it comes to advanced bombers, the USAF always asks for more than it can afford and in the battle for the rest of their programs it always pay the price. Also, that way we have plane that is more efficient and cost effective than the B-52 that can fly for the next seventy years as the USAF comes up with their ISR aircraft that they'll buy, oh, probably twelve of. ;D

But back to the SOF "cargo" stealth plane, what the hell are SOF inserting that they need a "Cargo" plane that large? It almost seems like an oxymoron to me. If you're inserting that much equipment and troops, how stealthy can it really be? I guess they need one of those "stealth blimps?" ;)
 
Sundog said:
Although, I should have clarified, I only meant it as an airdrop, whether it's the whole pod, or just a door they skydive out of, possibly at higher alt.
I don't know. If you talking about airdrop, then there arises the question of whether the b-2 is areodynamically suitable in term of altitude, speed, maneuverability, for airdrop. And if it does meet these requirements, then the next question would be whether its stealth will remain effective within such mission, since its stealth was designed for a different set of flights.
 

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