Unbuilt ASW/MARPAT versions of airliners?

[Sentinel Chicken]

Trying to come up with all there is- we're all familiar with these derivatives:

Lockheed Orion (Electra)
Illyushin Il-38 (Il-18)
BAe Nimrod (Comet)
Boeing P-8A (737NG)

What I'm looking for is a listing with pics if possible of unbuilt ASW/maritime patrol versions of commercial airliners- what I can come up with off the top of my head thus far:

"CP-137"- Boeing proposal to Canada/Australia for a long range ASW platform which would have replaced the Argus in Canadian service. The only picture I have seen of it was in a past issue of International Air Power Review that dealt with the military variants of the 707- it had a lengthened/drooped nose for the search radar, MAD booms on the wingtips, and I believe a weapons bay aft of the wing.

"DC-10 ASW"- McDD proposal to the Canadians for a multirole ASW platform based on the DC-10. Again, the only pic I've seen of it is in books, most notably Terry Waddington's book on the DC-10 from the Great Airliners Series.

"P-9"- McDD candidate for the LRAACA competition in the 1980s/90s based on a UHB powered version of the MD-87 I think. I haven't found any pics of it, but from what I recall of AWST issues from that time, it had a lower lobe weapons bay, lengthened nose for the search radar, and a MAD boom projecting aft from the horizontal tailplane/fin junction.

"757 ASW"- Boeing candidate for the LRAACA competition based on the 757. Found this picture on Globalsecurity.org's website:

I'm curious as to whether there have been such versions proposed of other airliners?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Il-114P actually flew I believe

 

[GTX]

There is the IRAN 140 Faraz maritime patrol version of the license-built Ukrainian An-140. Supposedly, the Iranian navy has expressed its willingness to operate An-140 in offensive and patrol roles, equipping it with a 360-degrees surface search radar. Other equipment options will include a range of Infra-red/Ultra-violet line scanner (IR/UVLS), forward looking airborne radar (FLAR), side looking airborne radar (SLAR), laser Fluorescent sensor (LFS), microwave radiometer (MWR), forward looking Infra-red (FLIR), magnetic anomaly detector (MAD), electronic support measures/radar warning receiver (ESM/RWR), sonobuoy launcher, anti-surface weapons and a video camera with data annotation. :

[Admin - broken links removed]

Regards,

Greg

 

[Jemiba]

A lttle bit older than the previous : The Breguet Br.764, an ASW version of the Br.761/
763 series :
Don't get fooled by the first picture, it wasn't more than a flying mock-up, based on
the standard Br.761.
(All pictures from :Jean Cuny "Les Avions De Combat Francais 1944 - 60")

 

[boxkite]

Okay, it's not an airliner. PZL started the development of an M-28MPA/ASW version (based on the An-28).

From JAWA 2001-2002:

M-28MPA/ASW: Provisional designation of proposed anti-submatine version. Mission subsystems yet to be selected (early 2001); will include FLIR turret in redesigned nose; MAD; EW system; sonobuoy system; and torpedoes.

Picture : PZL via Piotr Butowski

 

[Jemiba]

Not sure about the Lockheed VPX proposal (here from Aviation Week .6.77).
Looks like an airliner conversion, but which airliner ?

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

On first glance possibly the L-1011, but it appears to be a much smaller aircraft with different proportions than the Tristar. Undoubtedly, though, some of the engineering work from the Tristar would be applicable here, such as with the S-duct in the tail. I know it's just a drawing, but perhaps those are RB211 engines underwing? They look like smaller versions of the Tristar nacelles.

 

[dan_inbox]

Not sure if you want to count it as "unbuilt", the maritime patrol versions of the BN-2 Islander.

(yes, in my book Islander qualifies as airliner

 

[GTX]

"CP-137"- Boeing proposal to Canada/Australia for a long range ASW platform which would have replaced the Argus in Canadian service. The only picture I have seen of it was in a past issue of International Air Power Review that dealt with the military variants of the 707- it had a lengthened/drooped nose for the search radar, MAD booms on the wingtips, and I believe a weapons bay aft of the wing.

You mean this one:

Here is the trial version as well:

It was for Canada's Long Range Patrol Aircraft competition - I believe it came down to being between this and the CP-140.

Regards,

Greg

 

[hesham]

Hi,

For the Canada ASW the suggestion project was from Boeing-720
and that was for LRPA program (Long Range Patrol Aircraft).

 

[zebedee]

Heres a couple of good ones from Stephen Skinners book "BAC One -Eleven, The Whole Story"

The first is a 1-11 400 for the Japanese self defense force, with a new wing, extra wing mounted Adour engines, enlarged nose radar, towed mad bird and weapons bay.

The second is a 1970 proposal for an AEW version for the RAF...

Zeb

 

[CammNut]

Found this on the McDonnell Douglas entry for the US Navy's LRAACA competition:

P-9D LRAACA Proposal. In one of the most hotly contested military aircraft programs in recent times, McDonnell Douglas proposed a GE36 propfan-powered variant of either the MD-87 or the planned MD-91 for the US Navy’s Long Range Air ASW Capable Aircraft (LRAACA) requirement. Approximately 120 aircraft would be needed as replacements for current Lockheed P-3Cs. Lockheed proposed a turboprop-powered P-3 variant, while Boeing proposed a version of its 757. The Navy selected Lockheed’s improved P-3, powered by General Electric GE38 advanced turboprop engines. This project was canceled by the Navy in December 1989.

 

[TinWing]

Not sure about the Lockheed VPX proposal (here from Aviation Week .6.77).
Looks like an airliner conversion, but which airliner ?

This is obviously a far smaller aircraft than the L-1011.

Lockheed's commercial aircraft division was still very much alive in the late 1970s, and efforts were made to sell a shorter, twin engine variant of the L-1011. I have never seen a narrowbody Lockheed airline proposal from this era, though.

 

[Chris707]

The there was the late 1960s? early 1970s? Boeing proposal for Japan that was based on the 737, with four TF34s and a lowered nose, as I recall...

Chris
-----------------------------------------
Speculative Warplane Designs
http://www.dataviewbooks.com

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

Anyone got any other pics of the "P-9" McDD entry? I seem to recall that there was one design iteration that had a lower lobe weapons bay under the forward fuselage just ahead of the wing but it didn't go the full length of the forward fuselage. I also recall a MAD boom that extended from the junction of the vertical fin and tailplane and possibly some sort of HF antenna jutting foward?

 

[hesham]

Hi,

A new project for Airbus A-319 as ASW aircraft is under study.

 

[flateric]

Anyone got any other pics of the "P-9" McDD entry?

Here it goes, the P-9D beast from March, 7 1988 Aviation Week. Oh these damn dusty old magazines.
This is unbuilt ASW version of unbuilt airliner (MD-91). Funny.

 

[CJGibson]

The there was the late 1960s? early 1970s? Boeing proposal for Japan that was based on the 737, with four TF34s and a lowered nose, as I recall...


Please find attached a "Flight" drawing of the Boeing 737-ASW as proposed for Japan's P-XL requirement. Source for this is Flight International, 21st Feb 1974. I can supply the article if anyone wants it.

KB

 

[Jemiba]

Another picture of the Boeing 737PXL proposal
(from Aviation Week 1974_6-12)

[Resized pic to be smaller: Overscan]

 

[zebedee]

Oh that 737 is an odd looking bird...

IIRC there BAC proposed versions of the VC10 and Vanguard for what eventually became the Nimrod. The VC 10 would have had a glass nose and weapons paniers under the wings...

If anyone has info on either of these projects id be very grateful..!

Zeb

 

[fightingirish]

Another picture of the Boeing 737PXL proposal
(from Aviation Week 1974_6-12)

[Resized pic to be smaller: Overscan]

Reminds me very much of the new P-X!

 

[Jemiba]

"BAC proposed versions of the VC10 "

Sorry, still nothing for the Vanguard ...


< Sorry for the 737PXL pic, clicked accidentally the
wrong, not resized file ... :-[ >

 

[PMN1]

A reason i've read for rejecting a VC10 varient was it was too big - couldn't they fuselage have been shortened?

If a VC10 varient is chosen them what effect does that have on the attempted AEW program - can an aft scanner be safetly fitted to a tail mounted engine design and if not and a mast mounted system is tried, will the computer system be better able to cope with this rather than trying to coordinate two seperate scanners?

 

[elmayerle]

If a VC10 varient is chosen them what effect does that have on the attempted AEW program - can an aft scanner be safetly fitted to a tail mounted engine design and if not and a mast mounted system is tried, will the computer system be better able to cope with this rather than trying to coordinate two seperate scanners?

Sweep the vertical fin forward and mount the "disk" on top as was done with the An-71, and proposed for one of Boeing's early AWACS concepts? You'd obviously have to relocate the horizontal tails, but it is likely feasible.

 

[zebedee]

"BAC proposed versions of the VC10 "

Oh that is fantastic.. just what I needed...! Im assuming that the MAD equipment is housed in the elongated tail bullett...?

As for an Aew version... I wonder how similar to the AEW 1-11 i posted earlier in the thread it would be...?

Doing a little more reading I think there was a 1-11/VC10 crossbread proposed... 1-11 fuselage, VC10 wings and 4 engines... anybody have any data on that...?

Zeb

 

[PMN1]

"

Doing a little more reading I think there was a 1-11/VC10 crossbread proposed... 1-11 fuselage, VC10 wings and 4 engines... anybody have any data on that...?

Zeb

Sounds like the VC-11 - its in 'Stuck on the Drawing Board' but I'm away form my books at the moment.

 

[Jemiba]

From R.Payne "Stuck on the drawing board" :

[I've resized the image to conform to the 600 pixels rule. "Stuck on the Drawing Board" is easily available and we should encourage purchase of this book - Overscan]

 

[PMN1]

From R.Payne "Stuck on the drawing board" :

[I've resized the image to conform to the 600 pixels rule. "Stuck on the Drawing Board" is easily available and we should encourage purchase of this book - Overscan]

Seconded, absolutely superb book, really does mkae you think 'what if certain indviduals (they could probably been rooted via historical documents) had been strung up from the nearest branch, lamp post etc'.

 

[Jemiba]

Without any doubt, a great book, especially in the field of projects, not
as well covered as the VC 10 derivatives. Just as a stimulus, the index mentiones
about 500 type numbers !
For the fans of the VC 10 the book by Timothy Walker and Scott Henderson
"Silent Swift Superb - Story of the Vickers VC10" is recommended, which also
shows the planned military derivatives .

 

[PMN1]

Without any doubt, a great book, especially in the field of projects, not
as well covered as the VC 10 derivatives. Just as a stimulus, the index mentiones

I keep meaning to make an exel type table up of the various never were's from the back of the book and adding the Boeing, Douglas etc weres to get a comparisson.

 

[zebedee]

"BAC proposed versions of the VC10 "

Thought id have a go at doing a speculative illustration of the "VC10 Mr2" based on Jemiba's 3 view... serial is unused from the same batch as the first Nimrods...

Zeb

 

[Jemiba]

Great ! Would do you think, would a "Falklands ready" version in tan, with
air refuelling probe and sidewinders, carried the missiles on underwing rails,
too, as the Nimrod, or would they have been in the pods ?
(I'm opting for pods, just for optical reasons .. )

 

[zebedee]

Something like this...? *grin*

Zeb

 

[PMN1]

What would it have done for De Havilland if it had lost and the VC-10 (or a version of it) had been picked?

 

[zebedee]

Thats a very good question. Its a bit of a misnomer to think of the Nimrod as a De Havilland design, more correctly an Avro modification of a DH design, with most of the maritime specific modifications carried out by Avro, hence the HS801 design number which is in the Avro sequence. The actual production work was spread across the Hawker Sidderly group, De Haviland at Chester providing the wing centre sections, Hatfield tailplanes and intakes, Portsmouth fuselage and outer wings (work that was later transfered to Chester). Nimrod specific components were produced at Chadderton.

I think its fair to say it would have been a huge blow for HS as a group, who had no commercial orders left for the basic airframe, as opposed to BAC who were still selling the VC10 to airlines.

Zeb

 

[alertken]

DH was done for in late-'59 by decision to chop Blue Streak IRBM. They persuaded MoA to defer the announcement to April,1960 while they negotiated their sale to HSAL, talking up the prospects of Airco 121, inc. for ASW. The new owner brought back in house wings/rear fuse which DH had farmed to Fairey/Hunting, but then dragged feet, slowing Trident such that 727 took its market. HSAL bid MR Trident in 1964 but also bid a Comet variant -the Group frequently competed internally, such as to prejudice their position on (to be TSR.2), with AWA, Hawker and Gloster schemes.

When HS.681 and P.1154 were chopped, HSAL needed something. So did BAC, post-TSR.2. MoA Jenkins juggled and came up with HBN-100 for HSAL (to be A300), upgrade of (Breguet Taon) (to be Jaguar) and Saudi Magic Carpet for BAC. MR could have gone VC10, HS.121 or HS.801 (the logical P-3K, Tynes if you insist, was seen as salt in the wound, a cut too far; as for Atlantique, well really!) Ministers accepted BAC's forecasts of 300 Concordes, so they were OK; HSAL expected to flood the world with Tridents. Woodford was about to be empty post-Vulcan; HSAL moved 801 there and priced tighter than on 121/MR, or BAC on VC10.

 

[zebedee]

I think that sums up the industrial situation pretty well.. although i always thought that the MR trident (HS800) and Nimrod never actually competed, rather the Nimrod was a weekend job designed to stop the contract going to Atlantique which at that stage was a virtual certainty...

Zeb

 

[CJGibson]

I found this Jetsream 31EZ in the October 1982 issue of Air Pictorial. Announced at Farnborough 82, mods included: 360degree scan search radar in a ventral dome (eg Decca ASR360) improved navigation systems, increased fuel capacity including tip tanks, bulged observation windows and a searchlight, presumably in the tip tank nose.

Never heard of again?

I'll also dig out a pic of a Sea Skua-armed Dash-8.

KB

 

[CJGibson]

...and here's the Dash-8 and a bonus ATR-42.

KB

 

[Jemiba]

From Aviation Week 1977 1-9 a Boeing derivative of the 727, still 3 engined, but
with the tail side mounted engines moved to pods under the wings. Any explanation
why ? Lower noise level in the cabin, for a better acoustic environment ? ???