UK-France Future Combat Air System (FCAS)

[Deltafan]

Interview of the French Defense Minister in the French Weekly Aerospace Magazine Air & Cosmos :

"Le projet FCAS est en cours de réorientation. Au départ, nous avions l'ambition de faire un drone de combat. Nos alliés britanniques souhaitent faire évoluer le projet vers un drone de surveillance. Pour pouvoir concilier les deux approches, nous sommes en train de travailler à la définition de briques technologiques qui nous permettront de nourrir en même temps ces deux orientations."

We can understand that the project is not dead and that as France and UK have to build one demonstrator each, the current work consists in determining technical solutions allowing the building of a British UAV* and a French UCAV on the same basis (and no more a British UCAV and a French UCAV on the same basis).


*For the British demonstrator, maybe ISR or ISTAR are better words than UAV.

 

[mrmalaya]

Great stuff, some genuine news thanks.
https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2018/05/11/britain-flip-flops-toward-isr-drone-but-france-keeps-eye-on-combat-capability/

Britain flip-flops toward ISR drone, but France keeps eye on combat capability
By: Pierre Tran   May 11

The U.K. has expressed interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV over a combat-capable drone. (VanderWolf-Images/Getty Images)
PARIS ― An Anglo-French project for a combat drone demonstrator is switching tracks, as Britain is now more interested in pursuing a surveillance UAV, according to French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly.

“The FCAS project is undergoing a reorientation,“ she said in an interview with weekly magazine Air & Cosmos, published May 11. “Our British allies would like to steer the project toward a surveillance drone.“

London and Paris, in a bid to pool their interest in respectively surveillance and combat drones, are working on “definition of the technology packages, which would allow us to feed into these two streams at the same time,“ she said.

France and the U.K. had planned to pursue a €2 billion (U.S. $2.4 billion) project to design and build a technology demonstrator for a combat drone, dubbed Future Combat Air System Demonstration Program, or FCAS DP. But the lack of announcement of a program launch at the Anglo-French summit in January was seen by French industry as a rethink on the British side.

France, however, has continued interest in building an unmanned combat air vehicle.

Despite the U.K.’s interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV, there was scope for cooperation with France by sharing the technology on the FCAS DP.

The technology packages were a “great opportunity“ that could be used in a broad project to integrate manned and unmanned aircraft into a combined network, dubbed Future System for Air Combat, Parly said.

Germany is the partner for France on the latter, which will be opened up to other European partners, she said. “Certain (countries) have already asked and nothing rules out opening the project up for the United Kingdom if they wish to join,“ she said.

Work on the FCAS DP project is “extremely useful“ for France and the U.K., she added. “This is not about public relations.“

Defense industry analyst Fabrice Wolf is not surprised at the revelation, as Britain will have the stealthy F-35 fighter jet for operations in high-intensity zones, and a UCAV would duplicate the F-35.

For France, and particularly Germany, it is “indispensable“ to have such a UCAV capability, he added. Germany needs a replacement for its Tornado fighter and a planned Franco-German fighter will enter service around 2040.

Time was needed to allow the FCAS DP projects to mature and then be considered for incorporation with a larger European program, Parly said.

The French approach, whether working on the project with Germany or the U.K., was to identify useful and concrete projects, work in close cooperation, build solid foundations, and then open up to other partners, she said, all aimed at building European defense.

A strengthening of ties between Berlin and Paris is seen by the French defense industry as partly due to London’s planned departure next year from the European Union.

Britain worked on its Taranis UCAV demonstrator, which was first flown by prime contractor BAE Systems in Australia in August 2013.

For France, the initial test program for its Neuron UCAV demonstrator began in December 2012 to September 2015, flying in France and partner nations Italy and Sweden. The six nations backing the program are France, Greece, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland, with the former acting as the lead nation.

Dassault Aviation is the Neuron prime contractor, with subcontractors Airbus Defence & Space of Spain, Alenia of Italy, Hellenic Aerospace Industry of Greece, Ruag of Switzerland, and Saab of Sweden.

 

[Mike Pryce]

'Aircrafts' and 'a lot of job'.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/960897/Brexit-news-Gavin-Williamson-US-American-military-jets-European-aircrafts

 

[mrmalaya]

I have noticed that sort of excellent English on their website before.

Does a Super Typhoon make a super ucav more likely or are we looking at cheaper ucav and expensive reconnaissance system?

 

[LowObservable]

The Express story seems to be a complete rip-off from the Torygraph.

 

[FighterJock]

I don't think that turning the Typhoon into a UCAV would make any sense at all, it would be better to design a brand new UCAV from the ground up.

 

[mrmalaya]

Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?

 

[FighterJock]

Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?

Sorry about that, I forgot to click on the Quote button. :-[. Anyway I can see your point now and perhaps a slightly less advanced UCAV would do for now and let the technology mature, and the price of the technology to come down so that in the future we can afford to build a big and advanced UCAV.

 

[TomcatViP]

Eurofighter does that too with a similar offer:

General Manager of Airbus Defense and Space (ADS) -Belgium, Eric Lardinois:

"A participation into Scaf program (in English FCAS for "Future Combat Air System") is not solely related to the selection of French Rafale, as suggested by Paris."

Source (in Fr):
http://www.sudinfo.be/id62097/article/2018-06-28/remplacement-des-f-16-lachat-de-typhoon-permettra-aussi-lindustrie-belge-de

 

[Flyaway]

UK gives BAE Systems 12-month contract for FCAS work

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-gives-bae-systems-12-month-contract-for-fcas-work-449913/

No details provided as to what the work is.

 

[mrmalaya]

A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.

 

[Flyaway]

A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.

I wonder if the Taranis could be evolved to an active product?

 

[mrmalaya]

Well it seems as though the UK has concluded that FCAS (with the French) is not the answer for the loyal wingman concept they are now actively pursuing and that is treads on the F35's toes too much. The RAF would rather have more F35s than risk a significant cut in numbers because of a still undefined FCAS UCAV.

It is supposed to continue for now, and the UK are thinking more of a sensor craft than deep-strike role apparently.

I think we will see a domestic UCAV to fly alongside Typhoon and the F35 - which has some pretty significant export potential in my view.

 

[mrmalaya]

Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

 

[Flyaway]

Seems odd that BAE Systems aren't trying to get onto the Franco-German programme, but then BAE always did have a stake in Gripen so it makes sense to pursue the SAAB option.

Given the financial and technical issues that contracted the desires of the European nations to just three European platforms in the 1980s, it seems unlikely that the vastly increased R&D costs and the smaller export markets can sustain two, let alone three European programmes. I feel sure that the nations will coalesce as time goes on into the early 2020s if their different requirements can be met.

I don't feel the Turkish programme really counts, I have a feeling its going to be a lot like the K-FX with cool stealthy looks but decidedly 4.5th generation capabilities. Useful fill-in fighters and useful industrial and political tools but not at the cutting edge by any means.

That will be down to Brexit & the sour relations it has engendered with European nations.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Not just the Europeans, we are not too happy about things either.

 

[TomcatViP]

Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

Gorgeous !!!! Althought Those that did read Ol'T-VIP would not feel like standing off guard so, Taranis IS the first supersonic stealthy drone designed in Europe?

 

[Hood]

Interesting. A drone with VG wings and tails.
I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I assume the complicated VG tail fins are purely to ensure stability during sweep-change of the main wings? I can't think of any tailless VG concepts off hand.

 

[mrmalaya]

I think the tails and reconfigurable leading edge and wing are to allow the same system to perform different roles. When you combine this with the flexible payload bay (which has already been tested), this UAV concept allows much more bang for buck.

BAE first talked about this with Corax, which was their Raven UAV demonstrator with ISTAR suitable wings.

 

[litzj]

Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

Thx for sharing PDF !!, concept of BAE like airflow control for stealth, and variable wing are interesting !!

 

[mrmalaya]

The low cost UCAV being developed under LANCA is to have 2 phases of development and a flight demonstration according to Tony Osborne on Twitter. Open only to UK manufacturers.

 

[flateric]

This could be the UK cranked delta version of the planform Dassault has been publicising in the past couple of years.

Slightly better versions and some more stuff on BAE Systems cranked kite FCAS configuration (it was BAE Systems pavilion at FIA'16 for a note)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Ggj9tjufg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7puQdQCwpA

 

[mrmalaya]

Great find flateric!

The more I look at that model, the more it is apparent that it is the same as the French one, except the structure related to the British approach to the intake and engine.

 

[flateric]

For a note: all FCAS/SCAF images/video galleries are gone from Dassault core site.
Just a couple of press-releases left.
There are FCAS interviews still at Dassault TV though.

 

[flateric]

one more

 

[flateric]

some retrospective before UK/FR FCAS will kick off

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/10/brexit-wont-harm-anglo-eu-defence-co-operation-drones-says-bae/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/14/bae-systems-dismisses-concerns-lack-involvement-new-french-german/
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/185582/future-french_german-fighter-could-integrate-french_uk-combat-drone.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/04/12/uk-was-the-one-to-put-the-brakes-on-drone-demo-project-industry-says/
https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2018/05/11/britain-flip-flops-toward-isr-drone-but-france-keeps-eye-on-combat-capability/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/25/fears-britain-could-frozen-new-european-fighter-project/

 

[fightingirish]

It looks like, that the British-French FCAS project has been canceled.

Ah. Pour celles et ceux qui se demandent ce qu'est devenu le programme FCAS franco-britannique lancé en novembre 2014 : les travaux ont été arrêtés, confirme Eric Trappier.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChDefense/status/1101035355057332224

More tests this year on @Dassault_OnAir Neuron demonstrator focused on stealth, confirms CEO Eric Trappier. However work on FCAS with "our British friends" has been discontinued.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/fg_domperry/status/1101035607550296064

 

[Hood]

This Flightglobal article has a few more snippets, the most important perhaps being that interest from Britain seemed to wane. Even Trappier seems unaware exactly why it fizzled out.
The demonstrator phase was due to start in 2017, so it seems the pullback, perhaps due to funding or change of political interests, took hold before 'Tempest' came on the scene.
It seems some low-level co-operation is being maintained.
It would be too tempting to say the Brexit guillotine imposed by the government that inexplicably cut us from things like Euratom, which had little to do with the EU, had a hand in the unraveling of all the 2010-era Anglo-French defence cooperation initiatives. The truth is probably more nuanced than that.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-confirms-end-of-anglo-french-ucav-work-456199/

 

[red admiral]

The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

 

[FighterJock]

The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

Don't get me started on the B word red admiral.

 

[Mike Pryce]

The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

Patisserie?

 

[Hood]

Trappier seems to be laying out the arguments for not letting anyone interfere with his company's project. "One company or one country" sounds easy, but Dassault and Airbus are not one company (yet) and that assumes that the AdA and Luftwaffe have the same requirements in mind.
The cynic would say how would Dassault know about the multinational experience having not been part of one since the 1960s!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

I very much doubt much of the electronic source material will ever find its way to Kew or the company archives for us to read about. With 50 years to wait plus however long the Tempest is in service for (the 2040 introduction is barely halfway through the embargo period) we will all be dead or doddery old centenarians before we get the inside story. Hopefully our children or grandchildren will pick up the aviation historian bug and go have a look for us, assuming the software exists to read the files.

 

[TomcatViP]

You're too pessimistic (but I agree that the matters discussed in the latter posts brings anyone easily into this). In 50y from now, the SP forum will still be hotly debated by yet to be born forumers.

 

[Deltafan]

The cynic would say how would Dassault know about the multinational experience having not been part of one since the 1960s!

https://youtu.be/G3UtJ6u0QL0

 

[red admiral]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

 

[FighterJock]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

Here we go again. Looks like Dassault have never learned from their past mistakes.

 

[kaiserd]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

Here we go again. Looks like Dassault have never learned from their past mistakes.

Not going to defend previous decisions by Dassault & France but trying to project that on current decision making in a very different context is perhaps overreaching.

And considering how Brexit and it’s impact is going, and the state of the current relationship between the current US administration and many of its closest allies, perhaps we should all be mindful of getting high and mighty about being a good “partner”.

And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.

 

[Hood]

And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.

Certainly it seems the UK lost interest in the demonstrator by early 2018. (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/)
But interestingly Paris didn't put up the rest of the money for the demonstrator to satisfy Dassault either and since mid-2018 the focus on both sides of the channel has been the manned element of the FCAS system rather than the UCAV element.

Taranis and Neuron had proven the UCAV element, a further demonstrator might not have been that useful without a suitable manned 'wingman' for it to operate with and the complete combat system required. The new FCAS seems to be a more logical progression looking at the software first.

 

[red admiral]

And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.

That is the Dassault line...

 

[galgot]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

It didn't worked out well ? how so ?