The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

That may be preferable to declaring it a game-changing, Z-axis enabler of the networked battlespace, five years (if all goes well) before its seven-years-late KPP-compliant IOC.

But to each his own.

By the way, Mr F, did you come up with a sortie generation rate/number of jets needed to provide AEW for an amphib group?

And given the jet's cooling limitations, do you think that you could run the APG-81 on a 100 per cent duty cycle at high power for the duration of a sortie? (Photo hint - those big airscoops are not there to cool the crew's beer.)

Detail questions, for sure, but directly relevant to any discussion of what Marine forces with F-35Bs can do without CSG support.
 

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LowObservable said:
Detail questions, for sure, but directly relevant to any discussion of what Marine forces with F-35Bs can do without CSG support.

What I said was that they'd (a notional Marine strike force) be able to do a lot more to take care of themselves with the F-35B than without it (your solution). Your solution would require CVBG protection virtually every time. With the F-35B that would not be the case. And no, one doesn't require E-2D levels of AEW in every scenario. You're trying to paint it as if it's all or nothing and that isn't the case.
 
It may not be E-2D level all the time, but there is one thing for sure about AEW: either it's 24/7 or it's not, and either it covers every threat axis or it doesn't.

My point is not that all situations require CVBG cover. What I keep asking for is the scenario where you need stealth and supersonic speed (which means IADS of some sort, and fighters) but you don't need AEW and EA (and persistent ISR). My view is that anyone who has IADS and fighters, and wants to do AA/AD, will have Club-K, Bastion or something similar, because it is logical and available. In that case you must have AEW.

Your answer was that the F-35B could do AEW. I'd like to know how.
 
LowObservable said:
It may not be E-2D level all the time, but there is one thing for sure about AEW: either it's 24/7 or it's not, and either it covers every threat axis or it doesn't.

My point is not that all situations require CVBG cover. What I keep asking for is the scenario where you need stealth and supersonic speed (which means IADS of some sort, and fighters) but you don't need AEW and EA (and persistent ISR). My view is that anyone who has IADS and fighters, and wants to do AA/AD, will have Club-K, Bastion or something similar, because it is logical and available. In that case you must have AEW.


Your answer was that the F-35B could do AEW. I'd like to know how.

AEW was probably a bad example. I think one could do it but obviously it wouldn't have the persistence or range of an E-2D. Like I said, it doesn't take the place of a CVN but it definitely increases the types of missions one could do without *requiring* a CVN vs. your solution of helicopters-only. As for "requiring" supersonic speed and stealth, any type of air defense or strike mission will benefit by having them. Certainly you'd want it for operating in areas where you might run into enemy fighters.
_
" "replacing" the Harrier, which should actually be done with free A-10s and a Sikorsky Raider-type platform"
 
Let me make this as clear as possible. Consider two scenarios where I am trying to land Marines:

1 - Low-end threat. The bad guys have MANPADS and mortars. A-10s or helos with DIRCM can handle, and a nonstealth subsonic fixed-wing will provide better on-station time. There's no radar-directed threat so stealth is of little or no value.

2 - Bad guys have some modern, mobile SAMs and maybe some fighters. But if I am the bad guy, and I have a littoral vulnerability, I can also acquire ASCMs. For Blue to go in without AEW is lunacy.

Realistically, what scenario lies between 1 and 2? Because that is the only region where F-35B adds value to the joint force.

Now, I could in theory have a SKASaC-type solution on my LHA/LHD, but USMC has shown zero interest - possibly because that would put more stress on space/facilities/fuel, but also because they know in their heart of hearts that it is duplicative.
 
LowObservable said:
Let me make this as clear as possible. Consider two scenarios where I am trying to land Marines:

1 - Low-end threat. The bad guys have MANPADS and mortars. A-10s or helos with DIRCM can handle, and a nonstealth subsonic fixed-wing will provide better on-station time. There's no radar-directed threat so stealth is of little or no value.

2 - Bad guys have some modern, mobile SAMs and maybe some fighters. But if I am the bad guy, and I have a littoral vulnerability, I can also acquire ASCMs. For Blue to go in without AEW is lunacy.

Realistically, what scenario lies between 1 and 2? Because that is the only region where F-35B adds value to the joint force.

Now, I could in theory have a SKASaC-type solution on my LHA/LHD, but USMC has shown zero interest - possibly because that would put more stress on space/facilities/fuel, but also because they know in their heart of hearts that it is duplicative.
Long since convinced by your arguments but the uninformed just would like to know what SKASaC is? if you please
 
SKASaC = Sea King Airborne Surveillance and Control

seakingastan.jpg



There has been talk etc over the years of a AEW V-22 variant (e.g. below) although I don't know if the USMC has shown any interest.


TOSS.jpg



Let's also not forget the considerable capabilities of the AEGIS equipped ships. Now if one was to also network these in with platforms such as the F-35 and others one could still result in a very capable system of systems solution.
 
GTX said:
SKASaC = Sea King Airborne Surveillance and Control

seakingastan.jpg



There has been talk etc over the years of a AEW V-22 variant (e.g. below) although I don't know if the USMC has shown any interest.


TOSS.jpg



Let's also not forget the considerable capabilities of the AEGIS equipped ships. Now if one was to also network these in with platforms such as the F-35 and others one could still result in a very capable system of systems solution.

Thank you for the quick & concise response GTX.
 
LowObservable said:
Let me make this as clear as possible. Consider two scenarios where I am trying to land Marines:

1 - Low-end threat. The bad guys have MANPADS and mortars. A-10s or helos with DIRCM can handle, and a nonstealth subsonic fixed-wing will provide better on-station time. There's no radar-directed threat so stealth is of little or no value.

2 - Bad guys have some modern, mobile SAMs and maybe some fighters. But if I am the bad guy, and I have a littoral vulnerability, I can also acquire ASCMs. For Blue to go in without AEW is lunacy.

Realistically, what scenario lies between 1 and 2? Because that is the only region where F-35B adds value to the joint force.

Now, I could in theory have a SKASaC-type solution on my LHA/LHD, but USMC has shown zero interest - possibly because that would put more stress on space/facilities/fuel, but also because they know in their heart of hearts that it is duplicative.

You could have F-35Bs from the gators supplementing ONE CVN vs requiring TWO CVNs without the integral F-35B capability to achieve the same coverage. Obviously the USN/USMC sees the value of having them, even if you can't.
 
Sferrin - You could do that in principle. In practice, if you look at today's Hornet/Growler air wings or a future Hornet/Growler/F-35C wing, the capacity of the carrier is less of a LimFac than it was in the days of F-14/A-6/EA-6/F-18 wings.

Neither have I heard a lot of Navy aviators shouting from the rooftops about how marvelous it will be to have six-to-nine extra F-35Bs on tap, or to have a mini-CV-configured amphib full of short-range jets clamoring for tanker support. Note too that big-deck Navy has tried to push back the number of Bs in the DoN buy.

GTX - The effectiveness of defenses reliant on horizon-range sensors was proven in the Falklands, was it not? The USN's networked air combat approach uses the E-2 to target at long range, and the Aegis ship as the shooter. The E-2D improvements are important in that context. And I talked to one of the people who tried to interest Navy/Marines in the V-22 AEW project, and aside from a few individuals it went nowhere.
 
LowObservable said:
GTX - The effectiveness of defenses reliant on horizon-range sensors was proven in the Falklands, was it not?

No where did I say that it was an ideal system. I simply stated that "Let's also not forget the considerable capabilities of the AEGIS equipped ships. Now if one was to also network these in with platforms such as the F-35 and others one could still result in a very capable system of systems solution." Are you denying this to be the case? ::)

Mind you, using the Falklands as a justification is also challenge-able. After all, we are now some 30+yrs down the track with many developments (both technical and operational) since. Also remember that the AEGIS system had not even entered USN operational service in 1982, much less that of the RN. This is not to ignore the lessons of history - but one also needs to acknowledge the specific circumstances and also changes since so as to ensure the correct lessons are learnt/applied.
 
The world is still round (last time I looked) and 3M-54E ain't your abuelo's Exocet.


If you don't have a constant overhead presence against a middling-hard threat you are at risk of ambush. Yes, I can network fighters with Aegis but the capability exists only when I have fighters up, and looking in the right direction. It's not specifically an F-35 limit: no supersonic fighter is intended to provide persistent anything.
 
The benefits of a joint program:

We’re Stuck

The classic death spiral describes a process in which rising costs cause political and military authorities to cancel part of an aircraft purchase. As the total numbers drop, the price-per-unit appears to increase, as research, development, and startup costs are included in the numerator. The apparent increase in price then produces a political firestorm, producing more cancellations, further cost increases, a reduced fleet, and difficulties with international partners.

But the problem in this case is that the death spiral won’t lead to the actual death of the F-35. The fighter has, effectively, become unkillable. In the wake of negative experiences with the B-2 Spirit, the F-22 Raptor, and several other programs, Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon worked very hard to ensure that no one could kill the F-35. Three US services committed to acquiring substantial numbers of Joint Strike Fighters, with only minimal hedging with respect to alternatives. International partners bought in, often at considerable political cost. The result is an aircraft that perhaps should undergo a “death spiral,” but cannot; no matter how expensive the cheap alternative to the F-22 becomes, it cannot be killed. It is what it is, and we’re stuck with it.

That stark reality aside, what would a wiser policy with respect to the JSF have looked like? The hope that the plethora of existing warplanes could be economically replaced by a single airframe was deeply misplaced; the operational costs of new F-35s will exceed that of older aircraft for quite some time. The F-15, F-16, F/A-18, and A-10 remain more than capable of accomplishing most missions that the F-35 will conduct. Indeed, for many of the missions associated with the modern practice of airpower, A-1 Skyraiders and F-4 Phantom would perform perfectly well. The best hedge against failure of the F-35 program would have been investment in modernized versions of legacy aircraft, which could perform the traditional missions that do not require the specialized capabilities of the F-22 or F-35. Sadly, the attractiveness of this option to Congressional budget hawks meant that the Pentagon had to close the door on it as tightly as possible.

Source:
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/will-the-f-35-dominate-the-skies-9618
 
A depressing, possible scenario, but not one that is necessary or unavoidable.


R&D is spilled milk, and the best we can do is figure out how to make our milk-cans more stable, disregarding the know-nothing hoots about "Monday-morning quarterbacking."


On the other hand, the entire world knows how to build combat aircraft at rates <50/year and at flyaway costs <$100 million. Restructuring the program so that it does not starve other procurement needs over the next decade would not necessarily be terminal.
 
LowObservable said:
That may be preferable to declaring it a game-changing, Z-axis enabler of the networked battlespace, five years (if all goes well) before its seven-years-late KPP-compliant IOC.

But to each his own.

By the way, Mr F, did you come up with a sortie generation rate/number of jets needed to provide AEW for an amphib group?

And given the jet's cooling limitations, do you think that you could run the APG-81 on a 100 per cent duty cycle at high power for the duration of a sortie? (Photo hint - those big airscoops are not there to cool the crew's beer.)

Detail questions, for sure, but directly relevant to any discussion of what Marine forces with F-35Bs can do without CSG support.

that is a great point makes you wonder why the royal navy has been kidding themselves all these years.
 
Posted elsewhere but brought here for rebuttal:

Triton said:
Don't let the F-35 Mafia here on Secret Projects see your comments on stealth. ;) They seem to think that stealth aircraft will continue to be low-observable for some time and we don't need to worry about improvements in computer technology or radars.


and

Triton said:
bobbymike said:
Or watch out for the 'anti-F-35 Mafia' who put words into other mouths or you can show where the EXACT phrase 'we don't need to worry about improvements......' can be found.
So you are saying that the F-22 and the F-35 will be detectable during their operational lifetimes due to improvements in microprocessors and radar technology? I thought that we were expecting a good twenty to thirty years of low observability by investing in the F-22 and the F-35 to justify their expense?
bobbymike said:
Also, how does a LESS stealthy Gen 4 or 4.5 aircraft survive these 'improvements'?/quote]If "fifth-generation" aircraft are detectable through Moore's Law and radar improvements then they are no different than generation 4 or generation 4.5 aircraft, are they?

First up, no-one within the industry has ever claimed LO technologies make an aircraft completely undetectable. This is the realm of Hollywood! I would also remind people that the combination of technologies/techniques/tactics that is commonly referred to as Stealth or Low Observability (LO) is nothing new. Almost as long as there have been fights, people have been looking for ways to gain an advantage over their counterparts. When we were relying on visual detection methods only, we relied on technologies such as camouflage or misleading paint schemes or tactics such as diving out of the sun. When radar became more prevalent, the idea of flying below the radar gained popularity. Now days, when we are applying these new LO technologies we are doing so because they remove some of the limitations of the past – therefore a modern combat aircraft with modern LO technologies applied is able to fly at medium altitude which increases range and also reduces pilot fatigue or potential for attack by air defence systems. So in essence, modern LO technologies are not in fact compromising a platform, rather they are in actual fact expanding its potential/capabilities/usefulness!

To go even further, one needs to revisit the concept of the OODA loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop) - the operator (pilot or just as equally SAM operator or Tank Commander or Infantry soldier or Submarine Captain or…) who is able to Observe the enemy first, and who are able to Orientate themselves first and then Decide faster before finally Acting, all faster then their enemy, will win the engagement.

So what does this have to do with LO/Stealth? Well, if the enemy can't see you or if they are not able to fully discern which way you are headed or whether you are friend or foe until it is too late then that could provide the few extra minutes or even seconds necessary to get in a first shot. The OODA Loop is what it is really all about here!

And by the way, if LO is so easily outmoded, why do the T-50, J-20, J-10B all incorporate aspects of it? Fashion? ::)

And one last point, please don't say words to the effect of that "fifth-generation" aircraft [will be] detectable through Moore's Law" since it makes you look like a fool. Moore's law is nothing but an observation and is not a physical law that can't be broken. Moreover, when it comes to the sensors that are going to detect LO platforms, you also seem to think that designing/manufacturing/fielding/operating new sensors/radars is ‘a piece of cake’ or something that can be done inexpensively. Anyone who lives in the real world/industry where such things are developed (as opposed to Star Trek) knows this position is flawed. And besides, the same sensors are going to also be available to those who field these platforms (or aren't we allowed to do that?).
 
My facetious comments were prompted by yasotay's comments concerning the United States Air Force's desire for a Mach .8 stealth airlifter that could be operated in denied or contested airspace:

yasotay said:
Ultimately, is it really worth the very large cost to design and build a stealthy airlifter when something like > 95% of the missions the aircraft will perform do not require it? Given Moore's Law and the big changes in radar technology is it worth the expense for something that may not be stealthy when it reaches operations?

So my facetious comments were directed at what seems to be the United States Air Force's desire that every aircraft in the fleet must have LO so that it can operate in contested or denied airspace. Even if LO affects the aircraft's utility, such as the utility of a tactical airlifter. (Such as the added utility of turboprop or tiltrotor.) Why does every aircraft in the United States Air Force's fleet need to have LO?

GTX said:
And one last point, please don't say words to the effect of that "fifth-generation" aircraft [will be] detectable through Moore's Law" since it makes you look like a fool. Moore's law is nothing but an observation and is not a physical law that can't be broken. Moreover, when it comes to the sensors that are going to detect LO platforms, you also seem to think that designing/manufacturing/fielding/operating new sensors/radars is ‘a piece of cake’ or something that can be done inexpensively. Anyone who lives in the real world/industry where such things are developed (as opposed to Star Trek) knows this position is flawed. And besides, the same sensors are going to also be available to those who field these platforms (or aren't we allowed to do that?).

Of course, Moore's law is an observation rather than a scientific law. Members on this forum have just been using this observation as a shorthand way to say improvements in computing technology that seem to be occurring every 18 to 24 months. A doubling of IC processing power may not occur every 18 to 24 months forever into the future, but it certainly has occurred much longer than the original coiner of the term expected. I can't say, or anyone else can predict, whether Moore's law will be an accurate observation for the next 30 to 50 years in IC development.

I also never said that "designing/manufacturing/fielding/operating new sensors/radars is ‘a piece of cake’ or something that can be done inexpensively" or ever suggested that it was. Though time, money, and talent are being invested to detect, track, and destroy LO aircraft. What technical developments in the next 30 to 50 years may nullify the advantage of LO aircraft? What wars will we fight in the next 30 to 50 years and how well will our adversaries be equipped?

Further, it seems that some nations are breaking the bank to buy the F-35 to replace their legacy fighters. Due to the high cost of the F-35, these nations are not replacing their legacy fighters on a one-to-one basis. How many F-16s or F-18s is a single F-35 worth? For example, when the Royal Netherlands Air Force reduces its fighter fleet from 68 F-16 AM/BM fighters to 37 F-35A fighters. Is the F-35 worth two F-16s? How should we judge the F-35 as a force multiplier given the reduction of fleet size?
 
"No-one within the industry has ever claimed LO technologies make an aircraft completely undetectable."

"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."

Some bloke named Burbage, Sept 2008. Emphasis added.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=asFwPlAgWu0s
 
I know that English can be a challenge for some, but when Burbage says that it's done "before the F-35 is ever detected" he is saying that the F-35 can be detected but that it can get the job done before that happens.

This is a far cry from "completely undetectable"
 
LowObservable said:
"No-one within the industry has ever claimed LO technologies make an aircraft completely undetectable."

"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."

Some bloke named Burbage, Sept 2008. Emphasis added.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=asFwPlAgWu0s

Come on Bill I know you think you're the smartest in the room but the statement you posted is puerile but at the same time is entirely consistent with what GTX said. If someone says 'before detection' this obviously implies the possibility of 'after detection'.
 
Nice try, guys. The literal interpretation is that ground targets can be hit and air threats neutralized ("dealt with") before the most advanced sensors available can detect the F-35.

The words "then return safely" (given that the target has been alerted by loud explosions), imply that the aircraft's survivability continues through the mission. Is there any admission that the F-35 will be, or can be, detected?

I will grant you that not many people, even on the F-35 program, have made such statements before or since. However, the prominence of the source invalidates GTX's blanket claim.
 
I can launch a ALCM from a B-52 and destroy the target BEFORE the B-52 is detected.

Does this mean that the B-52 is "completely undetectable", obviously not.

Try approaching the subject honestly and objectively for once.


Btw, even if the target knows that it is under attack does not mean that it can do anything about it.
 
Weak analogy, but yes, the B-52 is completely undetectable at ALCM range. That's the idea.

Btw, even if the target knows that it is under attack does not mean that it can do anything about it.

That's been true since the invention of the bow and arrow, at least. Is it relevant to the discussion?
 
Are you seriously sticking with this? Can attack and neutralize BEFORE detection - range - implies there is an AFTER detection -
range. Are you really equating this statement that the quote means 'completely undetectable' even if the F-35 was parked next to the radar?

That is completely disingenuous.
 
Nope. Certainly not saying anything about aircraft next to radars, close enough to touch...


TB's claim is pretty clear: the jet will perform a mission against advanced threats, employ weapons and hit the target without being detected.


There may be an implication that it may be detected after hitting the target, but no more than an implication.
 
"New Report Questions F-35 Job Creation Claims"
Jan. 22, 2014 - 11:06AM |
By AARON MEHTA

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140122/DEFREG02/301220015/New-Report-Questions-F-35-Job-Creation-Claims

WASHINGTON — The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program has been hailed as a job creator of the highest order, a program that has a home in almost every state. But a new report claims that the job creation aspect of the fifth-generation fighter has been greatly exaggerated.

“Promising the Sky: Pork Barrel Politics and the F-35 Combat Aircraft” argues that Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor on the F-35, has purposefully inflated job creation figures to maintain support for the most expensive weapon system in history.

“What I found, which wasn’t too surprising, is that Lockheed Martin is exaggerating the number of jobs involved in the F-35 program,” said William Hartung, director of the Common Defense Campaign at the Center for International Policy and the author of the report. “What was more interesting was that the jobs were so concentrated.

“A lot of people assume these big procurement projects have work done everywhere and therefore it could never be cut back, because too many members of Congress have an interest in them,” he continued. “But the F-35 is not as widely distributed as claimed, and therefore I don’t believe it is as invulnerable in the Congress as the Pentagon and the company would like us to believe.”

Lockheed’s claims of job creation in 46 states has also been a key component in rallying support for the fighter. Using Lockheed’s own job numbers from the F35.com website, Hartung points out that the 71 percent of the jobs created under Lockheed’s own figures will go to just five states — Texas (32.54 percent), California (18.75 percent), Florida (7.66 percent), Connecticut (6.78 percent) and New Hampshire (4.67 percent). In total, 31 of the 46 states will receive less than 1 percent of the jobs created; 15 of those would receive less than one-tenth of a percent.

That Texas would receive the majority of jobs is not surprising, as Lockheed’s Fort Worth facility is where the F-35 is assembled. But Hartung argues in the report that to say the F-35 will have true economic impact on a state such as Nebraska, estimated to receive .003 percent of jobs created, is “misleading.”

Lockheed claims on its F35.com website that “according to standard industry accepted economic forecasting, the multirole 5th generation stealth fighter is responsible for more than 125,000 direct and indirect jobs.” Of those 125,000 jobs, 32,500 would be “direct” jobs, such as workers who assemble the planes, while another 92,500 would be “indirect jobs” created at companies that help supply the larger companies with material or services.

Indirect jobs are a tricky thing to estimate, given the nebulous nature of measuring jobs created to help sustain and support another new job. Hartung looked at a pair of previous studies on defense industry job creation to compare whether Lockheed’s assumptions matched up.

Those two studies found a “multiplier effect” — the number of indirect jobs created per direct job — of less than two should be used when prognosticating job creation. As a result, Hartung believes the number of indirect jobs is more likely in the range of 50,000 to 60,000 — still a large number, but almost half of what Lockheed has claimed.

“Somehow they’ve managed to boost that number in ways that were way out of line with other studies in the field,” Hartung said. “Nobody else has argued you can get that much additional activity out of the number of direct jobs.”

In a company statement, Lockheed said it used a multiplier of 2.86 to calculate the job figures, a number that is in line with the average multiplier identified by management and consulting firm Deloitte in a 2012 look at the aerospace and defense industry.

“We calculate the jobs impact for our programs using methods accepted by industry and leading economists,” the company said in the statement. “The F-35 program has a very large positive economic impact in the US producing high-technology jobs in small and large communities across the country. We expect the positive US economic impact to continue to grow as F-35 production volume increases.”

The report also collected the number of “major” F-35 contractors, defined as companies developing specific components for the F-35 as opposed to the makers of widgets used in a variety of programs. Of the 138 major F-35 contractors, 88, or roughly 63 percent, were foreign corporations doing work outside of the US. While the UK is the largest production partner, its work is occurring in fewer sites than countries such as Italy (36 locations) and Australia (30 locations).

While having production work done abroad has been a key part of the F-35’s partner-nation program, Hartung argues the level of outsourcing has been higher than publicly disclosed by Lockheed, which could again lower the job estimates in the US.

“The same job can’t be in two places at once,” he said.

Whether the program ends up creating the number of jobs promised, it is highly unlikely the Pentagon would consider cancellation. Despite a well-documented history of cost overruns and delays, Pentagon officials believe the program is back on track and still view the F-35 as the backbone for American air superiority over the next several decades.
 
LowObservable said:
"No-one within the industry has ever claimed LO technologies make an aircraft completely undetectable."

"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."

Some bloke named Burbage, Sept 2008. Emphasis added.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=asFwPlAgWu0s


;)
 

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LowObservable said:
Nice try, guys. The literal interpretation is that ground targets can be hit and air threats neutralized ("dealt with") before the most advanced sensors available can detect the F-35.

The words "then return safely" (given that the target has been alerted by loud explosions), imply that the aircraft's survivability continues through the mission. Is there any admission that the F-35 will be, or can be, detected?

I will grant you that not many people, even on the F-35 program, have made such statements before or since. However, the prominence of the source invalidates GTX's blanket claim.

Is this suppose to be a serious post?
 
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."


The Burbage quote seems to imply that the F-35 signature would be at least below the detection threshold at the maximum stand-off range of an internally-carried weapon. Note that he specifically said "detection", not "targeting", which implies lower levels of LO. If he were talking about a longer shot using an external, larger weapon, then there would be no point in mentioning the vehicle's RCS as an enabler. We would get back to the B-52/ ALCM case, and at longer ranges a reduced-RCS fighter (SH, Rafale, Typhoon...) would do just as well with something like Storm Shadow (Radar-range equation and all). The sensor-fusion bit in the quote is about not having to use your own sensors and give away your position, or at least not having to use them as much to build a picture, which reinforces the notion that you are not at stand-off range.

So what is the longest-range internal weapon? I'm not up to speed on what is slated for integration. I know glide bombs are and can probably reach 40 some miles depending on launch profile, but those are lumbering, very visible targets for a SAM system. The best bet would be a high-speed ARM missile, like that dual-mode AA/ARM missile that fits within the AIM-120 envelope (I forget the name, maybe JDRADM, it may not go anywhere anyway). To me this implies that Burbage believes that an F-35 could fly undetected within ranges in the order of 30-40 nmi (admittedly very sketchy guess of mine) of something like an S-300 or S-400 , provided there was such a suitable weapon. Otherwise it would have to be closer.


Or am I missing something? English is not my native tongue, after all!
Also, please let me know what is the longer ranged weapon that fits internally, it's bugging me now ;)
 
Meteor! (Consider yourself unbugged.)


JDRADM aka Next Generation Missile is as dead as a doornail. The DARPA T3 was supposed to get $18 million in FY2014 and complete live-firing tests last fall (according to the latest on the DARPA site).
 
LowObservable said:


I assume you are referring to eventual carriage of the MBDA Meteor on the F-35 since I can't think of any other platform carrying it internally.
 
You'd look pretty silly trying to stuff one of these in the weapon bay.
 

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Regardless of how overdue (long) and how well suited to the task (prob'ly well) a Meteor ARM would be for the job, that's still a twinkle in somebody's eye, or is it not? It's certainly not what Burbage had in mind in 2008. So an F-35 still has to get relatively close to the defense system in his scenario.
 
AeroFranz said:
Regardless of how overdue (long) and how well suited to the task (prob'ly well) a Meteor ARM would be for the job, that's still a twinkle in somebody's eye, or is it not? It's certainly not what Burbage had in mind in 2008. So an F-35 still has to get relatively close to the defense system in his scenario.
A 50-75 km shot with an AIM-120D is not unheard of, especially against a target that does not know it's a target or that a missile is inbound.

50-75km is well outside the likely detection range for any adversary in the new future.
 
LowObservable said:
Nice try, guys. The literal interpretation is that ground targets can be hit and air threats neutralized ("dealt with") before the most advanced sensors available can detect the F-35.

The words "then return safely" (given that the target has been alerted by loud explosions), imply that the aircraft's survivability continues through the mission. Is there any admission that the F-35 will be, or can be, detected?

I will grant you that not many people, even on the F-35 program, have made such statements before or since. However, the prominence of the source invalidates GTX's blanket claim.

We can't very well say that Vice President Tom Burbage misspoke about the capabilities of the F-35 or his comments were made off-the-cuff. Especially considering that his comments are part of a Lockheed Martin press release as an official rebuttal against critics of the F-35 and intended to set the record straight on the F-35. Burbage's words were carefully scrutinized and approved by Lockheed Martin. If there is a myth to the capabilities of stealth aircraft and the F-35 in particular, Lockheed Martin is certainly doing their part to perpetuate this myth. Or should we consider the press release "Setting the Record Straight on F-35" as a puff piece from the marketing department of Lockheed Martin?

If it is a myth that the F-35 is invisible to radar, Lockheed Martin is certainly doing their part to perpetuate the myth. of an invisible F-35
 
LowObservable said:
JDRADM aka Next Generation Missile is as dead as a doornail. The DARPA T3 was supposed to get $18 million in FY2014 and complete live-firing tests last fall (according to the latest on the DARPA site).

If the F-35 will not be equipped with the JDRADM aka Next Generation Missile (NGM) what are we to make of these comments? Does the MBDA Meteor provide similar capability to the cancelled NGM?

Abraham Gubler said:
The key thing to understand about the F-35 is it will achieve its air to air capability not by aerodynamics but by digital systems. It will be the first high angle off bore sight (HOBS) fighter and as such will be able to defeat ANY and I mean ANY (F-22 included) preceding fighter in a within visual range (WVR) 'dogfight'. It will do this because its missiles will do the turning enabling it to retain high energy and engage targets at up to 180 degrees off boresight (ie full spherical engagement).

As a beyond visual range (BVR) dogfighter only the F-22 is better but that is without outside input. Because the F-35 will have far superior networking capability (Link 22 vs Link 0) it will be able to fenjoy higher levels of EMCON supported by long range IRST. This may be a difference in many missions. What advantages the F-22 has in WVR would be offset by two F-35s in the air for each F-22, which is a reasonable assumption considering the cost differences.

When the F-35 emerges from 2020 in the Block V and higher configuration carrying at least 8 JDRADMs it will be even more capable.
 
SpudmanWP said:
50-75km is well outside the likely detection range for any adversary in the new future.


Ok, but there is no AIM-120 ARM as of now, not even a program of record, so I wouldn't count on such weapon being available any time soon. And neither could Tom Burbage have made that assumption five years ago, with nothing in the pipeline. ???


Regarding the 50-75km detection range exceeding future capabilities, do you have some anecdotal evidence that that's indeed the case? It seems to me like you can't answer the question without knowing rough numbers for RCS, power, antenna gain, etc.
 
I said nothing about an ARM version of AMRAAM. The 120D is for A2A and other systems with longer ranges than the AMRAAM will be used vs ground targets (SDB1/2, JSOW, JSOW-ER, JSM, SOM, JASSM, JASSM-ER, etc). Yes, I know JASSM is external, but it's longer stand-off range makes up for greater RCS of the F-35 when it's being carried.
 
Triton said:
LowObservable said:
Nice try, guys. The literal interpretation is that ground targets can be hit and air threats neutralized ("dealt with") before the most advanced sensors available can detect the F-35.

The words "then return safely" (given that the target has been alerted by loud explosions), imply that the aircraft's survivability continues through the mission. Is there any admission that the F-35 will be, or can be, detected?

I will grant you that not many people, even on the F-35 program, have made such statements before or since. However, the prominence of the source invalidates GTX's blanket claim.

We can't very well say that Vice President Tom Burbage misspoke about the capabilities of the F-35 or his comments were made off-the-cuff. Especially considering that his comments are part of a Lockheed Martin press release as an official rebuttal against critics of the F-35 and intended to set the record straight on the F-35. Burbage's words were carefully scrutinized and approved by Lockheed Martin. If there is a myth to the capabilities of stealth aircraft and the F-35 in particular, Lockheed Martin is certainly doing their part to perpetuate this myth. Or should we consider the press release "Setting the Record Straight on F-35" as a puff piece from the marketing department of Lockheed Martin?

If it is a myth that the F-35 is invisible to radar, Lockheed Martin is certainly doing their part to perpetuate the myth. of an invisible F-35

I don't think anyone said 'he misspoke' rather the dispute revolved around the interpretation of his statement with one side saying he meant 'completely invisiable' with other saying he meant cannot be detected at ranges within its combat ability to engage and destroy targets.'

I believe it is obvious he meant the latter but hey you guys 'cling' to a single quote and maximize the tendentiousness of your argument.
 
bobbymike said:
I don't think anyone said 'he misspoke' rather the dispute revolved around the interpretation of his statement with one side saying he meant 'completely invisiable' with other saying he meant cannot be detected at ranges within its combat ability to engage and destroy targets.'

I believe it is obvious he meant the latter but hey you guys 'cling' to a single quote and maximize the tendentiousness of your argument.

Ok, so what weapons is it using 'to engage and destroy targets'? That determines how far it can remain and how stealthy it needs to be. Which leads me to this:

SpudmanWP said:
I said nothing about an ARM version of AMRAAM. The 120D is for A2A and other systems with longer ranges than the AMRAAM will be used vs ground targets (SDB1/2, JSOW, JSOW-ER, JSM, SOM, JASSM, JASSM-ER, etc). Yes, I know JASSM is external, but it's longer stand-off range makes up for greater RCS of the F-35 when it's being carried.

For a well-defended target (and TB's quote mentioned that) these long-range but slow (largely subsonic) weapons seem ill-suited as they are vulnerable themselves. And if you go to the trouble of launching a stealthy cruise missile, then you are far enough that you don't need the F-35 level of RCS reduction (because of the fourth power relationship between RCS and Range).
 

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