kcran567 said:
I suppose all the f-35 huggin' fanboi's on here know exactly what the Su-35S is capable of? its operational capabilities?
Most of the fighters we have available today with vectored thrust, the Su-30MKI and MKM, can perform these maneuvers,” Bogdan tells Aviation Week. “Where this aircraft is different is that it has more thrust, so when it performs the 'bell' maneuver, it can stand still, with afterburning on, and can sustain flight at 120-140 kph.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_06_24_2013_p33-589854.xml
So yes, we have a pretty good idea the MKI has been around since before 2000. Speaking of used car salesman, this Flanker is not exactly a new design and even the US has Flankers within its boarders. I am not dismissing it as a threat, i'm dismissing the idea that the same maneuverability that has been around for the last 13 years with the MKI, is now something that makes it capable of dodging missiles and then magically closing the distance dozens of kilometers to take it WVR (and win of course, there is no thought that it could lose the WVR fight with say an F-18E using helmet cueing and an Aim-9X). And how does a flanker close the distance to WVR if it can't find the target? How does one intercept a plane that can't be seen?
again if the situation were reversed and the F-15 was claimed to beat the dodge PAKFA missiles before winning WVR against it a lot of people might think it ridiculous that such an old design could pull that off against a much newer more advanced machine. but apparently its a one way street.
You think that after 25 plus years of stealth there aren't any counter-stealth tactics and tech? Only a stealth fighter will be able to operate against another stealth fighter?
there may well be, but a 40 year old design isn't the answer.
All 4+++ designs are doomed?
no of course not. As long as Sukhoi keeps coming out with new Flanker variants every few years and adding more "+" to the title, and people keep buying them (a few here, a few there anyway), I'm sure it will never really be doomed. we will have to wait and see about the 4th generation +++++++++++ Flanker though, I think that will be spectacular and superior to the 6th generation fighters.
The Russians put "some" concessionary stealth features on the Pakfa, yet clearly not to the extent of the F-35 or F-22.
this is a good thing? now last I checked the F-22 wasn't exactly a wimp in the maneuverability department itself, (and neither is the typhoon for that matter, but lets just stick with the F-22) The F-22 appears to be the most extremely maneuverable aircraft in the world, even if it was constantly broadcasting its position on radar scopes all over. the idea that LO features are seen as a
"consession" when the F-22 has both stealth and maneuverability shows that you think LO instantly compromises an aircraft, and I'm sorry but that is not the case. If the PAKfa has compromised LO to try and kinematically best a raptor, that better be some incredible maneuverability to make it worh compromising LO.
even if PAKFA and F-22 are dead equal in kinematics, the F-22 will see first and shoot first. thats not a "consession" its a lethal advantage. 80 percent of dogfights are won by the guy who sees the other guy first.
That wasn't just for a lack of tech or cash on their part.
oh? have you bothered to research the allocated R&D? not to mention that they are ten years away from an F-119 class engine? you bet there is a lack of hard cash and tech. the collapse of the USSR still has russia playing catch up. or is the use of interim engines another clever design feature? Russia is finally testing their first all new post soviet fighter literally decades after the collapse.
Sure the F-35 can network and become a node and all that, operate with other aircraft...big deal...hasn't the Mig-31 been there done that?
I don't recall anyone saying the F-35 would be the first, I believe the claim is that it will have a larger network with more aircraft that are collecting and sharing more data with more advanced sensors than ever though. which is kind of a big deal.
just like how not all aircraft are equal in agility, not all aircraft are equal in senors and data sharing and avionics. these things also matter.
Other than a helmet that still doesn't work right (they need more money to fix it) what else is so "revolutionary".
Im still wondering how Su-30MKI maneuverability become revolutionary "super maneuverability" when the su-35 does it, so I guess we are both stumped.
I guess I remain an f-35 skeptic.
Regardless if the f-35 can perform miracles and turn water into wine while ruling the skies, it should be cancelled
maybe just a little.
Lets see how well this works in the real world.
meaning stealth? there is plenty of successful combat history to look at.
what I was mainly critiquing is the price of the F-35 for what we are getting.
well earlier you said that no matter how good it was, the price wasn't worth it, which is kind of a hint that you will never be happy with what you are getting.
And you F35 "price quoters" sound like oily used car salesman. $80 million? Are you kidding!
that is the US Government's accountability office number. not LMs.
and KPMG, an independent auditing firm hired by canada put the price at 88 million for Canada. so, i guess they are sleazy sales people too.
And why all the bluster and bragging RE the F-35? You F35 Fanboi's are about as bad as the Russian Fanboi's in you're own right.
A lot of my bluster and bragging is about this new russian flanker being remarkably similiar to the old russian flanker. and that russia, for lack of a better phrase, is a tad "rusty" and has been out of the game for a while and probably doesn't have the money it would prefer, and that this stealth stuff (not just the F-35) seems to be kind of a big deal. all I did was apply the same questions about survivability and marketing to the flanker. which is, like it or not a pretty well known aircraft. The F-22 and Typhoon were both designed to beat it.
If you are feeling nostalgic here is an article about Flanker maneuverability from 1996:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf-long-wait-for-state-of-the-art-fighter-may-soon-be-over-with-induction-of-sukhoi-su-30/1/282819.html
