The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

[DD]

Interesting. What is the general view in Turkey of the just-so-flawed?

Am TDY down under so taking opportunity to catch up with Aussie friends in the northern clines.

All the Australians I have had the pleasure to meet and the honor to work with are people of great integrity and high intelligence with an innate ability to think outside the box i.e. really talented critical thinkers.

Also fun people who are self effacing and down to earth to the point of making self deprecation an art form.

Takes a lot of travelling to get down here, so while looking for some 'mind candy' to while away the hours, spent time browsing thru the earlier pages of this thread.

The comments and assertions of a very small but quite vocal group of posters are mind-bogglingly outrageous, devoid of any technical or operational literacy, and quite lacking in anything that resembles substantive let alone critical argument.

Suggest worth reading this threads history, starting from page 9. Some of the posts are revealing and show how susceptible some have been to the LM marketing hype.

Alos, seems this thread has attracted examples of the few people from down under that are the antithesis of the above.

Hilarious.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Interesting. What is the general view in Turkey of the just-so-flawed?

Am TDY down under so taking opportunity to catch up with Aussie friends in the northern clines.

All the Australians I have had the pleasure to meet and the honor to work with are people of great integrity and high intelligence with an innate ability to think outside the box i.e. really talented critical thinkers.

Also fun people who are self effacing and down to earth to the point of making self deprecation an art form.

Takes a lot of travelling to get down here, so while looking for some 'mind candy' to while away the hours, spent time browsing thru the earlier pages of this thread.

The comments and assertions of a very small but quite vocal group of posters are mind-bogglingly outrageous, devoid of any technical or operational literacy, and quite lacking in anything that resembles substantive let alone critical argument.

Suggest worth reading this threads history, starting from page 9. Some of the posts are revealing and show how susceptible some have been to the LM marketing hype.

Alos, seems this thread has attracted examples of the few people from down under that are the antithesis of the above.

Hilarious.

Was this meant for Facebook? Broad generalizations about others, your awesomeness, and how cool your friends are?

 

[DD]

Good grief, T^2, only need to mention I am TDY and you think me awesome!

You are easily impressed, aren't you? Wouldn't happen to be a Marine by any chance?

Broad generalizations? Don't think so.

Try reading the various posts referred to and you will see my comments are quite specific.

There again, specifics aren't your strong suite, are they, particularly when they include data and facts that put into question the whole belief system you have built up and around the F-35 JSF.

As before, simply hilarious!

 

[mkurt]

General Public has no views on the programme. They know F-16 is the best Combat plane of all time, only because we had a factory building them and I still remember the exasperation in a schoolfriend's face when the then PM started talking at a delivery ceremony which was supposed to be a live event of the maiden flight and we had broken off the classes. For more interested they are currently either claiming some US Officers had Turkish soldiers arrested because they captured American made "FGM-148 somethings" from the PKK or that is just a lie .

True to form the PM just declared they will fight Gladio type organizations forever, but likes of the "Deep State" are like a virus and they can't be destroyed, by no country in the world. A truce?? Meanwhile the said friend was deeply bugged to hear that we are buying some 117 AIM-9X as the first news at the Pop-Music Channels he listens to. Russians must be scared like hell.

In short there are lots of delusions on the sides of the argument, pertinently about whether the Footpad will appear in THK colours or not.

 

[piko1]

huh yey the Turks think that f-16 is the best fighter in the world (nop) also why do Turkey needs jsf yes in the cold war Turkey needed big af cuz in a matter of war Turkey and Greece were going to be turned to dust for 24 hours just from the Bulgarian armed force alone ( whit out weapons of mass destruction) but that's too offtopic the whole program is just waste of finances brain and human power for useless and expensive plane you end up with brick not plane just as f16 block 52+ :

 

[jsport]

Burt Rutan for SecDef.

recently on C-Span he emphasized (again) the lack of innovation in the military and civilian aerospace industry which has been quite enduring. He even seemed to question the military requirements process. (again, amen) He sees no hope on the horizon..
he may have been a bit to dismissive of stealth and the advanced systems on the recent fighters, but largely he is correct..the cost has not justified the increments.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330544

 

[bobbymike]

TT - They are lying, LM is lying, anyone who has anything to say about the F-35 in a positive way is lying, lying, LYING!! Don't you get it?

I knew a guy once who was a multiple PhD in stealthsupermaneuverabilityaerodynamicism and he says the F-35 sucks, but he only told me.

 

[DD]

"So as we pivot to the Pacific and marvel that the X-47 is able to taxi around a carrier’s flight deck and label the JSF “the last manned fighter,” maybe we outta consider whether one hundred and eighty-some F-22s is gonna be enough for the air war to come."


Read more: http://defensetech.org/2012/12/24/air-to-air-warfare-isnt-dead/#ixzz2GIPuHCSM
Defense.org

http://defensetech.org/2012/12/24/air-to-air-warfare-isnt-dead/

Sign of the times and awakening to the reality of the F-35 JSF Program's effect on American air power and that of all the other nations ensnared in this honey trap.

 

[DD]

http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330544

Carefree handling up to 50 Alpha was impressive back in the 1970's.

Today, machines like the F-22A Raptor, Sukhoi Su-30MKs and Su-35S have unlimited AoA envelopes that can be flown with impunity.

Now we see machines with Extreme Plus agility in the subsonic and supersonic regimes entering the marketplace, such as the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA and the Chengdu J-20 with their relaxed static directional stability.

Meanwhile, those with little to no technical literacy keep chugging down the JSF Kool Aide.
;D

 

[sferrin]

Meanwhile, those with little to no technical literacy keep thinking a Sooper Cobra will enable an aircraft to outmanuever a HOBS missile..
;D

Here, let me fix that for ya.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

TT - They are lying, LM is lying, anyone who has anything to say about the F-35 in a positive way is lying, lying, LYING!! Don't you get it?

I knew a guy once who was a multiple PhD in stealthsupermaneuverabilityaerodynamicism and he says the F-35 sucks, but he only told me.

Everyone is crazy but him of course.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330275

 

[chuck4]

http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330544

Carefree handling up to 50 Alpha was impressive back in the 1970's.

Today, machines like the F-22A Raptor, Sukhoi Su-30MKs and Su-35S have unlimited AoA envelopes that can be flown with impunity.

Now we see machines with Extreme Plus agility in the subsonic and supersonic regimes entering the marketplace, such as the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA and the Chengdu J-20 with their relaxed static directional stability.

Meanwhile, those with little to no technical literacy keep chugging down the JSF Kool Aide.
;D

Unlimited AoA envelope would mean the plane can actually flip 180 degrees around and travel tail first, with engine intakes sucking the plane's own aerodynamic wake. I am fairly sure no jet aircraft can do this at any speed useful to air combat.


Relax static stability is nothing new. Most FBW fighters entering market place after 1980 has it. F-35 undoubtedly has it. Being able to pull high AoA is nice. But the speed/altitude/sustained G envelope of the F-35 probably tells an more generally applicable story about its relative combat maneuver capability than its maximum AoA.

 

[mkurt]

to be turned to dust for 24 hours just from the Bulgarian armed force alone ...
for useless and expensive plane you end up with brick not plane just as f16 block 52+ :

Though one must avoid Nationalist crap most of the times, I gather you have never met some Russian staff officers.
The second part, well obviously correct, ain't it?

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=118748

 

[AeroFranz]

I think the point is that 50 deg AOA is not exactly a sensational nor transformational capability. Anything flying today better have at least this level of handling. More to the point, i hope the envelope expansion clears the F-35 to greater AOA. If you get in a situation where you need the capability, chances are the opponent can match that and then some.

 

[bobbymike]

I think the point is that 50 deg AOA is not exactly a sensational nor transformational capability. Anything flying today better have at least this level of handling. More to the point, i hope the envelope expansion clears the F-35 to greater AOA. If you get in a situation where you need the capability, chances are the opponent can match that and then some.

Are there any websites or information on how to gauge a fighters total capabilities against another plane and how that would translate into air combat? I think Airpower Australia did something but it was highly criticized.

It must be an incredibly complex formula, especially trying to guage pilot capabilities, that seems like it would be true guesswork IMHO. Did anyone predict the F-15 would be 120-0 in air ot air combat?

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Doesn't matter if you can pull 90 deg AoA for a second or two, or 50 deg AoA for 5 seconds. It all depends on the geometry of the fight.

The Viper was designed to fight a high energy fight and not bleed off "e" because the pilot pulled too hard for too long. know what? It worked.

The thing about the F-35 is it may be gee-limited about like the Super Bug or Eagle, but with that big motor it will be able to continue the fight longer. Most og the Viper fights were not at 9 gees. Sure, we could do the "bat turn" at 9 gees for a few seconds, but then we eased off and continued the fight, usually 5 or 6 gees for another 30 seconds.

The fascination with the 50 degrees of AoA or anything else like that is not a big factor in the jet's survivability. A good sustained gee of 5 or 6 gees at 350 knots IAS will work almost every time. And then we have increased SA due to the sensor suite and then.....

From an expert at F-16.net. There is was an article and I have not been able to find it again, about how newer pilots in F-22s would just wrench it to get the nose around and kill all their energy at which point the F-22 was very vulnerable and the Aggressor F-16s had learned to recognize it and take advantage.

I know the F-35 can't fly backwards like the F-22A Raptor, Sukhoi Su-30MKs and Su-35S :

 

[sferrin]

Didn't you know? A Sooper Cobra makes an aircraft invulnerable to everything. Forget that "unproven" stealth snake oil. Anybody who's attended an airshow can attest to how "game changing" the Sooper Cobra is when it comes to air combat. Just ask any fanboi, he'll tell you.

 

[LowObservable]

Terri Moon Cronk? I have my next punk band name.

Nice to know that at some uncertain date, when the F-35 enters service, it will offer material advantages over two smaller and cheaper aircraft, one designed 40 years ago and the other an evolved development of something that was on the drawing board when "The Purple People Eater" was topping the charts. I call that an excellent use of $55 billlion in R&D.

Correct, you can't pick a single speed/g point and say "this is where combat capability is determined". However, I suspect that most fighter designers want the combination of sustained g (the ability to change flightpath), instantaneous g/nose authority, acceleration and controllability/carefree handling - the last two meaning that the pilot does not have to watch aerodynamic limits continuously, because the jet will not get into a position that it can't easily get out of, preferably in more than one way.

What we do know for sure is that 50 deg alpha is just one point, and as AF says, far from a unique achievement. Likewise, a Cobra (dynamic deceleration) is just one point and its value has been debated for decades.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Nice to know that at some uncertain date, when the F-35 enters service, it will offer material advantages over two smaller and cheaper aircraft, one designed 40 years ago and the other an evolved development of something that was on the drawing board when "The Purple People Eater" was topping the charts. I call that an excellent use of $55 billlion in R&D.

It was $55 Billion to develop the F-35B?

 

[chuck4]

It must be an incredibly complex formula, especially trying to guage pilot capabilities, that seems like it would be true guesswork IMHO. Did anyone predict the F-15 would be 120-0 in air ot air combat?

Does the fact that the F-15's main adversaries were Arabs rather than Soviets form part of the input into the "formula"?

 

[bobbymike]

It must be an incredibly complex formula, especially trying to guage pilot capabilities, that seems like it would be true guesswork IMHO. Did anyone predict the F-15 would be 120-0 in air ot air combat?

Does the fact that the F-15's main adversaries were Arabs rather than Soviets form part of the input into the "formula"?

Yes I mention 'pilot capabilities' which would encompass training, etc.

 

[DD]

I think the point is that 50 deg AOA is not exactly a sensational nor transformational capability. Anything flying today better have at least this level of handling. More to the point, i hope the envelope expansion clears the F-35 to greater AOA. If you get in a situation where you need the capability, chances are the opponent can match that and then some.

Are there any websites or information on how to gauge a fighters total capabilities against another plane and how that would translate into air combat? I think Airpower Australia did something but it was highly criticized.

Is this the one you mean?

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-270109-1.html

 

[DD]

Or is it this one?

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-030808-1.html

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Does the fact that the F-15's main adversaries were Arabs rather than Soviets form part of the input into the "formula"?

There are quite a few documented cases where Soviet pilots were treated just as badly as Arab pilots in other air to air combats (F-4 vs MiG-21). So one can assume flying the same planes with the same tactics to the same level of training that they would have been just as badly thumped by the F-15.

 

[DD]

Or, specifically in relation to the JSF, maybe this one?

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-05072010-1.html

;D

 

[DD]

http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2013/01/02/cost-overruns-jet-should-prompt-pentagon-reassess-project/gYZy0N40hTEnRXwcEJlc3K/story.html

Little comment required . . .

 

[DD]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/01/1175398/-cancel-the-F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter

Ditto!

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/01/1175398/-cancel-the-F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter

Ditto!

FTFA:

Another thing I can tell you, is that if its projected to cost $300 million now, that cost will eventually double. Or triple. That's the way the DOD goes. So now we are looking at $1 billion a plane.

And you think this person knows what they are talking about? Theses sound like the kind of people who can't count to potato, and then say it will increase in cost by eleventy gazillion percent. good for a lulz though!

And for another thing, we don't need the plane. We never needed it. What conflict does the plane prepare us for? Our current model planes are sufficient to successfully fight any military in the world.

I agree. So no need to fear the Vaunted Super Flankers and Ultra Pak-FA That APA is always scared of? If our older 1970's era Teen fighters can handle them easily then the F-35 should be just fine. Thanks Peter, I feel so relieved.

And most of our conflicts aren't with the top-level military, like China and Russia. Most of our conflicts seem to be flying with our drones and killing bad guys. Even if you don't support the drone war, that's just the direction that our military is going.

Perfect, Australia can just stick with Hornets and Super Hornets then. Everyone is happy. The APA article you posted earlier contradicts all that but I am glad you can take both sides of the opposing issues. How "Flexible" of you.


Also didn't we cover that APA is essentially just opinion as well? And since the Co-Author, Peter Goon had a vested financial interest in the F-111 upgrade that it is not an "independent think tank"??


In the meantime, LM has been given 4.8 Billion reasons why the US Government is sticking with the F-35.

 

[sferrin]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/01/1175398/-cancel-the-F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter

Ditto!

OMG somebody actually quoted the Daily KOS. ROFL!!!

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/01/1175398/-cancel-the-F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter

Ditto!

OMG somebody actually quoted the Daily KOS. ROFL!!!

They say the Su-35S and PAK-FA are easily handled, so thats good news.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Gripen NG $107 million dollars each... and thats if you are Swiss.

"That price is between 15 to 30 percent below the level Sweden itself has agreed to pay for the planes, according to the broadcaster's sources."

http://www.thelocal.se/44974/20121210/#.UOseHm9ZX00

 

[LowObservable]

$107 million? Very helpful indeed.

Now, is that most directly comparable to a URFC, a UFC, and APUC or a PAUC? Base-year? Then-year?

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

$107 million? Very helpful indeed.

Now, is that most directly comparable to a URFC, a UFC, and APUC or a PAUC? Base-year? Then-year?

Without trying to sound too obnoxious, you are the Gripen fan, what are your thoughts?

the whole deal is 3.13 billion francs at 100 million per jet we are looking at 2.2 billion for the aircraft alone if my arithmetic is correct. leaving 900,000,000 million francs for...?

 

[Arjen]

Without trying to sound too obnoxious...

You provided the number. Spill.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Without trying to sound too obnoxious...

You provided the number. Spill.

I didn't write the article.

Switzerland will pay far less for the 22 fighter jets it is planning to buy from the Swedish company Saab than Sweden itself would pay for the aircraft, the Swiss public broadcaster SF reported.
Sweden confirms sale of Gripen to Switzerland (28 Aug 12)
Swiss will press on with Swedish fighter jet deal (22 Aug 12)
Sweden to lend Gripen fighters to Switzerland (29 Jun 12)



Switzerland is to buy the JAS-39 Gripen combat jets for 100 million Swiss francs ($107 million) each, SF reported late Sunday, citing unnamed sources in both Switzerland and Sweden.

That price is between 15 to 30 percent below the level Sweden itself has agreed to pay for the planes, according to the broadcaster's sources.

Stockholm has said it plans to buy between 40 to 60 Gripen jets, but has not said revealed how much it will pay for each.

A spokesman for the Swedish defence ministry refused on Monday to comment on the SF report.

Switzerland announced in August that it had agreed to the highly controversial deal to replace its ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger fighters, with deliveries set to start in 2018.

It said the deal was worth 3.13 billion Swiss francs, but that amount included related services and it was unclear how much Switzerland would actually pay for each jet.

Swiss defence ministry spokeswoman Sonja Margelist declined to specify the amount paid per plane, saying her ministry would only speak about the full amount of the deal.

The Swiss Gripen purchase, which is part of a larger order for the planes to be shared with Sweden in a bid to cut production costs, is controversial in Switzerland because it will require spending cuts in other areas.

Defence Minister Ueli Maurer has countered the criticism by insisting that the Gripen "was the cheapest" option compared with the French Dassault Rafale and the EADS Eurofighter.

The deal must still receive a green light from the Swiss parliament and could possibly still be derailed by a popular referendum.

The agreement has also been criticized in Sweden for handing over very pricey merchandise at discount rates.

"Switzerland has no plans whatsoever to contribute to Gripen's development costs," Anna Dahlberg, a commentator with the Swedish daily Expressen, lamented after the August announcement.

She added "the country chose Gripen simply because it was the cheapest alternative."

AFP/The Local/og

If the link I provided isn't working that it

 

[LowObservable]

It's next to impossible to make any sensible comparison of fighter prices unless you know that the basis is the same - for example, you can compare the cost of two different aircraft acquired by the US, or of different aircraft offered to meet the same tender. So the $107 million doesn't mean anything.

By the way, I don't think Saab has ever advertised the Gripen as being cheap to buy (Swedish-made goods don't have that reputation generally).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It's next to impossible to make any sensible comparison of fighter prices unless you know that the basis is the same - for example, you can compare the cost of two different aircraft acquired by the US, or of different aircraft offered to meet the same tender. So the $107 million doesn't mean anything.

Which is why it’s a good thing that the article in question is referring to the gross cost of the Swiss Gripen project or in US terminology: program unit cost. 3.13 billion SF (US$ 2.89 billion) for 22 units or $131 million per unit program cost.

Which compared to the recent figure provided by the ANAO for the F-35A is $132 million per unit program cost. That is with a Tier III partner level in investment in development and a buy of a fair slice of jets early on in the production schedule before learning and higher rates of production lower the unit cost.

So the Gripen is one million USD per unit over the program for a customer or 0.75% cheaper despite being at full rate production and a far inferior product.

By the way, I don't think Saab has ever advertised the Gripen as being cheap to buy (Swedish-made goods don't have that reputation generally).

Single engine, lightweight fighter isn’t cheap? What’s the point of it then? Plus re Swedish goods not being cheap well I don’t know where you buy your furniture but IKEA is the place to go for the cheap crap to fill the new apartment.

 

[Triton]

Are land-based F-35As sufficient to defend Japanese sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands? Or does Japan need to use its helicopter destroyers and purchase the F-35B to defend these islands in its dispute with the People's Republic of China?