The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

I guess, according to Lockheed, Canada does not need the F-22 for air superiority but the US does? So Canada is going to get the milk run missions? Or are 187 F-22s going to cover for them too?
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

LOL somebody fix, I tried to merge this into the No Holds Barred thread and obviously failed.


done
 
So is this news or still the F-35 rant and counter-rant thread?

sferrin said:
Look at the J-31 and the F-35 from the side.

Missed your reply from earlier, I'm no expert but visually I'm not seeing it. The J-31 doesn't have the same bulge on the underside of the wing where it meets the fuselage (is that all for the landing gear?) but generally the side view looks pretty similar to me.

I simply don't believe the F-35 is aerodynamically the dog so many claim it to be. It's true that a relatively clean F-16 in a LWF sort of configuration will accelerate faster or turn tighter, but a blind man could see the difference between that loadout and what the F-16 is usually hauling for the missions it is expected to perform these days.

The STOVL requirement gets a lot of blame but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently? They were still looking for a single-engine multi-role aircraft to replace the F-16. Besides maybe going for a more "exotic" configuration what would be that much different? Seems many are upset that the F-35 is a fighter-bomber as opposed to being an air-to-air focused mini-F-22.
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

Bruno Anthony said:
I guess, according to Lockheed, Canada does not need the F-22 for air superiority but the US does? So Canada is going to get the milk run missions? Or are 187 F-22s going to cover for them too?

The F-22 isn't for sale. Even if it were in production. Which it isn't.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
So is this news or still the F-35 rant and counter-rant thread?

sferrin said:
Look at the J-31 and the F-35 from the side.

Missed your reply from earlier, I'm no expert but visually I'm not seeing it. The J-31 doesn't have the same bulge on the underside of the wing where it meets the fuselage (is that all for the landing gear?) but generally the side view looks pretty similar to me.

I simply don't believe the F-35 is aerodynamically the dog so many claim it to be. It's true that a relatively clean F-16 in a LWF sort of configuration will accelerate faster or turn tighter, but a blind man could see the difference between that loadout and what the F-16 is usually hauling for the missions it is expected to perform these days.

The STOVL requirement gets a lot of blame but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently? They were still looking for a single-engine multi-role aircraft to replace the F-16. Besides maybe going for a more "exotic" configuration what would be that much different? Seems many are upset that the F-35 is a fighter-bomber as opposed to being an air-to-air focused mini-F-22.
Personally I don't think it's a dog either (based on what the people actually flying it say). But it's fuselage isn't just wide, it's thick because of that big-a$$ engine. Like the BAC Lightning with its stacked engines. Not as extreme as the earlier lightning but it's certainly thicker than a J-31 top to bottom.
 
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle but because they were told it would cost less. In reality the F135 costs more than two F414s, weighs more and (even absent an uprate) produces less thrust.


The F-35 is also thick in the centersection because it is shorter than an F-16 (LHD elevator limit) but the same OEW as a Super H, internal weapons and fuel. Now add the body-side cant and you have a very wide body between the outer wing attack points.
 
LowObservable said:
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle but because they were told it would cost less. In reality the F135 costs more than two F414s, weighs more and (even absent an uprate) produces less thrust.
Yeah? How are you going to hook 2 F414s to a lift fan? Whoops. Also 2 3-bearing nozzles would probably require L/R versions. . . $$$ The F135 has already been run at 50,000lbs+, when has the F414 been run at 25,000lbs+? Sure, we've been hearing about F414 upratings for over a decade but have they actually run them at that?
 
sferrin said:
Yeah? How are you going to hook 2 F414s to a lift fan? Whoops. Also 2 3-bearing nozzles would probably require L/R versions. . .
Read again:
LowObservable said:
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle ...
The STOVL requirement came from the USMC. No USAF requirements dictated a single engine.
LowObservable said:
...but because they were told it would cost less. In reality the F135 costs more than two F414s, weighs more and (even absent an uprate) produces less thrust.
A production F135 delivers less thrust than two F414s combined.
 
Arjen said:
sferrin said:
Yeah? How are you going to hook 2 F414s to a lift fan? Whoops. Also 2 3-bearing nozzles would probably require L/R versions. . .
Read again:
LowObservable said:
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle ...
The STOVL requirement came from the USMC. No USAF requirements dictated a single engine.
LowObservable said:
...but because they were told it would cost less. In reality the F135 costs more than two F414s, weighs more and (even absent an uprate) produces less thrust.
A production F-135 delivers less thrust than two F-414s combined.

And? What are you suggesting, that we have a twin engine version for the USAF and a single engine for the USMC? ::) PS, it's unlikely that the USAF would have went with a twin F414 anyway because they were interested in commonality with the F119 (for cost and other reasons).
 
Colonial-Marine said:
The STOVL requirement gets a lot of blame but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently? They were still looking for a single-engine multi-role aircraft to replace the F-16.
This is part of what LO replied to.

With the STOVL requirement, a twin engine aircraft would not make sense.
Without the STOVL requirement, a twin engine aircraft might make sense, in which case the USAF might well have decided to do things differently.

LO didn't start about a what-if JSF without STOVL, Colonial-Marine did.

And it's not just twin engines:
LowObservable said:
The F-35 is also thick in the centersection because it is shorter than an F-16 (LHD elevator limit) but the same OEW as a Super H, internal weapons and fuel. Now add the body-side cant and you have a very wide body between the outer wing attack points.
The LHD elevator limit is another factor not of the USAF's making.
 
Arjen said:
Colonial-Marine said:
The STOVL requirement gets a lot of blame but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently? They were still looking for a single-engine multi-role aircraft to replace the F-16.
This is part of what LO replied to.

With the STOVL requirement, a twin engine aircraft would not make sense.
Without the STOVL requirement, a twin engine aircraft might make sense, in which case the USAF might well have decided to do things differently.

LO didn't start about a what-if JSF without STOVL, Colonial-Marine did.
Even if the USAF had their own custom design I doubt they'd have gone with a twin. They'd have wanted to maximize commonality with the F119 for a slew of reasons (cost, training, supply line, etc.). Probably just end up with a slighty longer F-35 (24?) with a better area rule.
 
The US Navy favoured twins until JSF came along (F-4, F-14, F/A-18), so a non-STOVL USAF/US Navy joint project might well have produced a twin.

As Colonial-Marine asked, 'but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently?'

Joint was mandated by Congress, the USAF would still need to listen to the Navy..
 
Arjen said:
The US Navy favoured twins until JSF came along (F-4, F-14, F/A-18), so a non-STOVL USAF/US Navy joint project might well have produced a twin.

As Colonial-Marine asked, 'but if that wasn't there, what would the USAF do differently?'

Joint was mandated by Congress, the USAF would still need to listen to the Navy..
Hard to say. There have been several very successful single-engine naval planes (A-4, F-8/A-7, Harrier, etc.) and even back in those days having 2 engines wasn't the deciding factor for the Navy choosing the F-4 over the XF8U-3.
 
Obviously, I was replying to C-M's hypothetical.


Absent STOVL I suspect that two F414s would have been the choice, particularly if the Navy was involved. The F119 would be expensive in any event, and a lot of the cost involves supercruise, which the AF was not interested in. They did not want ATF-Lite.


A better way to look at the Navy's attitude to singles is that the Navy has started one successful single-engine combat aircraft acquisition in the last 60 years, and that 50 years ago. (The A-7 - the Crusader and Tiger having been launched more than 60 years ago.) This is not surprising given that there are many situations in navy aviation where the most benign total power loss is barely survivable.


By the way, Bogdan was quizzed the other day by an ex-Navy guy (who had been on the JAST requirement team) who asked how the prognostics on the engine were coming along, given that prognostics were a big part of selling the Navy on a single engine. He did not get a very reassuring answer. Not that engine reliability isn't improving, but the situation regarding power loss over cold water, and outside helo range from the CSG or friendly land, has not changed.
 
LowObservable said:
A better way to look at the Navy's attitude to singles is that the Navy has started one successful single-engine combat aircraft acquisition in the last 60 years, and that 50 years ago. (The A-7 - the Crusader and Tiger having been launched more than 60 years ago.)

Considering the USN has only developed 3 new fighters since then - one being too large for any single engine of the day (F-14), one losing due to being single-pilot (XF8U-3), and the 3rd being the loser to the F-16, well, that barely tells us more than nothing. In other words only 1 example in roughly 60 years supports your assertion. Also consider the Harrier and both the Convair 200 and XFV-12 were all single-engined as well. Essentially you're trying to convince us that the USAF and USN together didn't carry more clout than the USMC. If having twin engines was that important they could have easily made the McD/Northrop/BAE entry a twin.

LowObservable said:
By the way, Bogdan was quizzed the other day by an ex-Navy guy (who had been on the JAST requirement team) who asked how the prognostics on the engine were coming along, given that prognostics were a big part of selling the Navy on a single engine. He did not get a very reassuring answer. Not that engine reliability isn't improving, but the situation regarding power loss over cold water, and outside helo range from the CSG or friendly land, has not changed.

Oooohhh, cancel the program. ::) There's no such thing as "we can 100% guarantee there will never be a failure". No doubt this will come as a shock to you but twins have gone in the drink too. The USN, USMC, and USAF all did the trades and ran the numbers and single-engine it is. Complaining about it now is pretty pointless wouldn't you say?
 
LowObservable said:
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle but because they were told it would cost less. In reality the F135 costs more than two F414s, weighs more and (even absent an uprate) produces less thrust.


The F-35 is also thick in the centersection because it is shorter than an F-16 (LHD elevator limit) but the same OEW as a Super H, internal weapons and fuel. Now add the body-side cant and you have a very wide body between the outer wing attack points.

Interesting claim. Can you elaborate or back that up?
 
RD - What I meant was that the USAF wanted an SE aircraft because it would supposedly cost less.


No, the McD-led entry for JAST could not have been a twin (under the rules) since then the failure of any one of three engines in jetborne would have been catastrophic.


And I said "combat aircraft" not "fighters" by the way...
 
LowObservable said:
No, the McD-led entry for JAST could not have been a twin (under the rules) since then the failure of any one of three engines in jetborne would have been catastrophic.

So what you're saying then is your extended lament about how the F-35 should have been a twin is completely pointless.

LowObservable said:
And I said "combat aircraft" not "fighters" by the way...

I am curious as to how ASW, AWACS, and helicopters are relevant when discussing fighter aircraft.
 
Since you haven't comprehended my last comments there is no point in responding further.
 
LowObservable said:
The USAF did not want a single-engine aircraft on principle but because they were told it would cost less.

What they wanted:
USN:
"first-day-survivable stand-alone strike capability (similar to that provided by the land-based F-l 17)."
They knew they were not actually going to get that capability with this program and would not come close for a while and accepted that. JAST/JSF would not meet the A-12/AX/AF-X requirements, and the Navy would have to wait to get an aircraft that would.

USAF:
"a multi-role high sortie producer that is affordable in large numbers beginning in about 2010"
USAF would also "like" for the platform to be able to take over the deep strike role from the F-15E and F-117 eventually. Officially, the F-117 deep strike role has been taken over by the F-22 and/or B-2.

USMC:
"a more capable short takeoff-vertical landing aircraft for quick response to support the close battle"
"More capable" here means mostly VSTOL payload and survivability. These were pretty aggressive goals as USMC basically wanted the basing flexibility of the Harrier with the mission capabilities of the F-18. Vertical landing with 3900-5500 lbs, 850ft landing roll with 13k lbs, etc.
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

sferrin said:
The F-22 isn't for sale. Even if it were in production. Which it isn't.

Yeah I know about the F-22s status but my point was do the Canadians know that LockMart doesn't think they need the level of air superiority that the Raptor provides? Are the Canadians going to get the easy missions?

They might beg to differ.
 
Q - That is not far off right.


Where it all started to go a bit pear-shaped was when they were sold the idea that if they all signed on to a joint, common-outer-mold-line aircraft in three versions, it would not only save development costs over any other approach, but would be F-16-priced (CTOL) and have lower operating costs than the aircraft it replaced.


Clearly this idea was tremendously appealing to two groups - the manufacturers, who all assumed they would be the ones to win it, and to an administration that didn't want to spend big $ on defense in either its first or second terms - who both share a lot of blame for the outcome. However, it was clearly not founded on a solid knowledge base.


Someone should conduct a study (prob at the classified level) of the 1992-96 history of JAST/JSF, because the lessons would be very valuable.


//Irrelevant. hostile & repetitive responses will be ignored as usual.
 
More F-35 love from the Ottawa Citizen:

"Just Face It – The F-35 Is A 'Bomb Truck'”
March 8, 2014. 10:10 am • Section: Defence Watch
by David Pugliese

Source:
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2014/03/08/just-face-it-the-f-35-is-a-bomb-truck/

Defence Watch reader Rob Dresser has this to say about the recent article I wrote quoting USAF Gen. Michael Hostage on the need for the F-22 to accompany the F-35:

"The only thing remarkable in General Hostage’s assessment of the F-35 is that anyone should find his comments remarkable. It is refreshing that the head of the USAF’s Air Combat Command should make such frank remarks."

He is right on the money. The F-35 is a bomb truck. It was designed by Lockheed to be inferior in every respect to the F-22. It was anticipated that the USAF would have a fleet of upwards of 800 F-22s to provide cover for the F-35. President Obama turned off the F-22 tap at just 170-airframes.

What was interesting, and went unnoticed or at least unmentioned in the media, was how the F-35 was transformed into a world-beating fighter with the cancellation of the F-22 contract.

In what ways is the F-35 the purpose-built inferior of the F-22? The F-35 lacks the range of the F-22. The F-22 has the range to prowl the combat theatre looking for threats. The F-35 has range to get to a target, drop a bomb, and get straight back out.

The F-22 has the sine qua non of all contemporary fighters – supercruise.

The F-35 ‘Fat Boy’ is too stout for supercruise. The F-35 was designed around one huge boiler, the fan needed for the Marine’s vertical landing model. That prescribed the design for the Air Force and Navy models. As Aviation Week’s Bill Sweetman has pointed out, if you want to see what the F-35 should have looked like, you should check out China’s [J]-31 stealth fighter.

The F-22 has thrust vectoring to increase its agility. Obviously not to be found on the F-35.

The F-22 has twice the armament bays as the F-35. The F-22 is a multi-role fighter capable of excelling in the air superiority role while also being able to loiter over targets for close air support.

The F-22 has an all-aspect stealth masking. The F-35’s stealth masking is frontal aspect only. Lockheed executives have defended that by saying that the F-35 is only intended to go in low, straight to the target, and straight out again. It’s not a fighter. It’s a bomb truck.

The guys at Lockheed let that cat out of the bag. The Russians already know that all they have to do to counter the F-35 is force it to manoeuvre and then it’s dead meat.

The Russians have also figured out that because the F-35 has no rear aspect stealth cloaking and because it lacks supercruise it will be easy to run down and kill as it attempts to egress hostile airspace.

Stealth technology is “perishable.” That assessment by American and Israeli defence planners appeared in Aviation Week last year. They maintained it would be countered within five years. Given the advances the Russians have made in sensor technology in both their aircraft and BVR missiles that’s probably accurate.

As General Hostage admits, the F-35 is ‘irrelevant’ without the F-22 to furnish air cover. The RAND Corporation concluded the F-35 could not out turn, out climb or out run any of the opposing fighters it might meet in hostile airspace, including the Su-30 family.

For all of these reasons it is probably a good idea to heavily discount the F-35’s stealth advantage. The question then becomes how does it stack up against Rafale, Eurofighter, Super Hornet or even the Gripen? That’s the sort of question that can be readily answered in a fly-off competition. Get them all up to Cold Lake and put them through their paces, day in and day out. Give them intercept missions, strike missions, close air support, patrol and air superiority missions? Max them out. See which fighters are capable of generating three sorties a day and which can’t handle more than one sortie every other day.

Let’s examine the CF-18 records. How many engine-out incidents were encountered. In how many of those was the CF-18 able to return to base?

How many engine-out incidents – bird strikes, foreign object ingestion, mechanical failures – can we expect with the F-35 and what will be our attrition rate? What is it going to cost to keep a paltry 65-light bomber force intact?

Finally, what does it mean when your warplane, your light bomber, needs that other country’s air superiority fighter to survive in hostile airspace? It suggests that, when you equip with the F-35 you’re enlisting in America’s Aerial Foreign Legion. America will furnish not only the F-22 guardians but also the tankers, AWACS and JSTARs the F-35 needs to work its magic in hostile territory, the raison d’etre of a stealth light attack bomber.

American generals want the F-35, calling it their “kick in the front door” weapon. It’s a first strike weapon. Filling your hangars with F-35s is essentially outsourcing a good bit of your foreign policy to the Pentagon and in 21st century America diplomacy has yielded to military violence as the preferred instrument of foreign policy. Do we really need to go there?
 
"Experts: Canada's Money-saving Move Will Delay CF-18 Replacement, More"
Mar. 8, 2014 - 01:49PM |
By DAVID PUGLIES

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140308/DEFREG02/303080017/Experts-Canada-s-Money-saving-Move-Will-Delay-CF-18-Replacement-More

VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA — The Canadian government’s decision to hold back spending CAN $3.1 billion (US $2.9 billion) on defense procurements over the next four years will further delay major aircraft purchases, including a next-generation fighter jet, industry representatives and defense analysts said.

The move, announced Feb. 11, is designed to help the federal government close its budget deficit and defer spending the funds between 2014 and 2017-18.

The Department of National Defence (DND) has declined to publicly release a list of affected procurements. However, equipment programs with deliveries underway won’t be touched.

The Department of Finance said those projects affected will be “major capital procurements.”

Industry sources say some money will be saved from the Dec. 20 cancellation of the proposed purchase of a fleet of close combat vehicles.

Other projects affected include the acquisition of new fixed-wing search-and-rescue aircraft. A contract for that project was supposed to be awarded in 2014-15, with aircraft deliveries in 2017. But that appears unlikely, as a final request for proposals has not yet been released to industry.

The purchase of a next-generation fighter to replace the CF-18 also will be further affected, industry representatives said. The first replacement aircraft were supposed to be delivered in 2016, but the government put its planned purchase of the F-35 joint strike fighter on hold in December 2012.

Since then, a federal government team has been studying fighter jet options, but has not said whether it will hold an open competition or proceed with the F-35 purchase.

“The work is being completed as expeditiously as possible,” said Pierre-Alain Bujold, a spokesman for Public Works and Government Services Canada.

But Alan Williams, the DND’s former head of procurement, said the analysis of options, as well as the deferral of funding, plays into the hands of those in government and the Royal Canadian Air Force who want to buy the F-35.

“As it stands, the F-35 would lose any competition Canada held today, but if that is delayed for several years, then its chances of winning improve as development issues are worked out,” Williams said.

Lockheed Martin Canada spokesman Mike Barton said the budget deferral is not expected to have any effect on the company’s F-35 program or other projects underway in Canada.

“We stand back to wait for the [fighter options] process to work itself out, and wait for the government to make a decision,” he said.

The Feb. 11 release of the federal budget for fiscal 2014-15 gives a broad overview of government spending plans while the release of more specific department budgets, including those for the DND, are to come later this month.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said the deferral is not a cut to the military’s budget or to the government’s commitment to rebuild the Canadian Forces.

Government officials also have noted that the DND has a large number of equipment projects on the go, more than its procurement staff can handle.

“There’s no point in having money sitting there when they can’t spend it this year,” Flaherty said. “So we’re pushing it forward, not taking it back, just pushing it forward so they can use the money when it’s useable.”

The money was to have been spent between 2014 and 2017.

But Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau said the deferral is another example of how the ruling Conservative Party government has bungled defense procurement.

Tim Page, president of the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries, said the budget decision is concerning.

“Any hit to the capital budget of the Department of National Defence will have an impact on the Canadian industrial base,” Page said. The government has pointed out that the CAN $3.1 billion is not being removed from the military budget, only delayed, he said.

Other savings are expected to come from temporarily putting on hold a plan to increase the size of the regular forces from 68,000 to 70,000 troops.

In addition, the Army has eliminated a number of weapon systems and vehicles from its inventory, and the Air Force is pulling its personnel out of the NATO Airborne Warning and Control System program and also has withdrawn from NATO’s Alliance Ground Surveillance system.
 
"U.S. general’s comment further clouds viability of F-35 fighter for the RCAF"
By Steve Mertl | Daily Brew – Fri, 7 Mar, 2014

Source:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/u-general-further-clouds-viability-f-35-fighter-203928793.html

The suitability of the controversial F-35 jet fighter as a replacement for the Royal Canadian Air Force's aging CF-18s is getting even murkier, if that's possible.

The fighter-replacement program has been thrown into limbo already over cost issues and development delays, with Ottawa considering whether to abandon the U.S.-sourced F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and reboot the search for another candidate.

Now comments by a senior U.S. Air Force general hint that Ottawa may have gotten it wrong from the very beginning.

First, a little background: The CF-18, in service with the RCAF since 1982, fulfills both an air superiority and ground-attack role for the Canadian Armed Forces, meaning it can dogfight with enemy jets and also work as an effective bomber.

Presumably its replacement should be able to do the same. Not so, says Gen. Michael Hostage, head of the U.S. Air Force's Air Combat Command.

In an interview published in the Air Force Times last month, Hostage said essentially the F-35 Lightning can't perform the air-superiority role. The air force is relying on its new F-22 Raptor to do that.

Hostage's comments were part of a conversation about preserving various important programs in the face of major cuts to the U.S. defence budget. He was asked about needed upgrades to the F-22, which is just coming into active service.

Hostage said he planned to fight hard to retain the upgrade program for the F-22.

"If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant," he told the Air Force Times. "The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22."

The comment likely will explode like a bomb in Canadian defence circles.

“I’m sure you won’t see the general’s comments in any F-35 marketing literature,” Martin Shadwick, a York University professor and defence analyst, told the National Post.

“Canada needs a multi-role fighter and even if the F-22 were available we couldn’t afford another aircraft to fly top cover for the F-35s.”

Unlike the F-35, which is being developed for international sales, the Americans are keeping the F-22 to themselves. Both are stealth fighters developed by aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, but the F-22 is considered the most advanced fighter in the world.

A spokesman for Lockheed Martin Canada quickly dismissed Hostage's comments.

Mike Barton told the Post the F-35 meets all Canadian requirements and Hostage's comments relate to the way the U.S. Air Force employs its fighters, which is not relevant to Canada.

Barton said he had not seen an adverse reaction to the Hostage interview from the federal government or any of the other countries considering the F-35.

Nonetheless, it's hard not to think the comments won't be investigated as Public Works Canada tries to decide whether to stick with the F-35 program or ditch it and start the search afresh for a CF-18 replacement.

The Globe and Mail reported in January that the government wants a decision soon because it wants to start phasing out the CF-18s starting in 2017.

Canada was on track to buy 65 F-35s until questions arose about the initial cost estimates.

A 2012 report by the Auditor-General criticized the process Ottawa used to pick the F-35 and said the government had underestimated the long-term cost of the program.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer later said the cost of the F-35 program would be about $29 billion, roughly double the $14.7-billion initial estimate.
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

Bruno Anthony said:
Yeah I know about the F-22s status but my point was do the Canadians know that LockMart doesn't think they need the level of air superiority that the Raptor provides? Are the Canadians going to get the easy missions?

They might beg to differ.

What level of air superiority is being offered by their current fleet of 103 McDonnell Douglas CF-15 Hornet multi-role fighters? Further, can anyone think of a scenario in which Canadian aircraft would operate without the United States Air Force F-22 Raptor as part of a coalition allied air power?
 
I think it is a highly relevant comment. How is the F-35 going to achieve air superiority in a high threat environment without the F-22? And what government is going to want to pay some big buck serious mega-cash for a fighter that is lackluster in the air-superiority role?
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

Triton said:
Bruno Anthony said:
Yeah I know about the F-22s status but my point was do the Canadians know that LockMart doesn't think they need the level of air superiority that the Raptor provides? Are the Canadians going to get the easy missions?

They might beg to differ.

What level of air superiority is being offered by their current fleet of 103 McDonnell Douglas CF-15 Hornet multi-role fighters? Further, can anyone think of a scenario in which Canadian aircraft would operate without the United States Air Force F-22 Raptor as part of a coalition allied air power?

Hope those F-22 pilots are on speed. There ain't many of 'em. Or are we only planning to bomb 4th world countries?

Bottom line Triton is that the ACC chief says the F-35 can't go without the F-22. LockMart guy says that Canada's AF does not operate that way. So who are they(the Canadians) planning to fight?
Or is it that the Canadians don't worry about that air superiority crap?
 
Few people here are looking at the big picture.

Who is Canada going to fight that requires F-22's for air superiority? If it's Russia or China trying to start WW3, good luck being much use with the current defence budget.

In the modern globalised environment, you're only going to be fighting smaller nations or proxy forces of larger nations, and that's where the F-35 will be top dog; against limited number fleets of J-31's, J-15's, Mig-35's, Su-30's, etc. It's only when your 65 CF-35's go head to head with squadrons of PAK FA's and J-20's, etc that you'll run into issues; in which case though your 65 aircraft should be getting backed up with a few hundred US / partner F-35's and other fighters.

kcran567 said:
I think it is a highly relevant comment. How is the F-35 going to achieve air superiority in a high threat environment without the F-22? And what government is going to want to pay some big buck serious mega-cash for a fighter that is lackluster in the air-superiority role?

As seen in recent decades, it's easier for the typical enemies of coalition forces to field SAMs and MANPADs, AAA, etc. Against those targets, the F-35 will do a far better job compared with pretty much any other system out there. And again, when they try and get their MiG-25's, 35's, whatevers out (many of which will have been destroyed by cruise missiles, as per modern doctrine) they'll be little challenge against an F-35 - they'd also be fighting an uphill battle against F/A-18E/F's, Typhoons, Rafales, etc as well, but the difference between those and the F-35 will be that they can actually play a more integrated role in the force; being able to fly alongside partner F-35's and receive the same targeting solutions, SAR imagery, join in on cooperative jamming, etc.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
sferrin said:
The F-22 isn't for sale. Even if it were in production. Which it isn't.

Yeah I know about the F-22s status but my point was do the Canadians know that LockMart doesn't think they need the level of air superiority that the Raptor provides? Are the Canadians going to get the easy missions?

They might beg to differ.

What? You think Lockheed Martin is dictating what Canada buys? For real?
 
kcran567 said:
I think it is a highly relevant comment. How is the F-35 going to achieve air superiority in a high threat environment without the F-22? And what government is going to want to pay some big buck serious mega-cash for a fighter that is lackluster in the air-superiority role?

How has Canada's F/A-18 done it without the F-14 Tomcat providing the high end for the last 30 years? Do you have any actual evidence that the F-35 is "lackluster" in the air-superiority role?
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

sferrin said:
What? You think Lockheed Martin is dictating what Canada buys? For real?

With the lack of competition in Western aerospace in general and the USA in particular LockMart can pretty much dictate to everyone.

I'm sorry I'm not sure about the tone of your post since I have not read everyone's opinion on the F-35.
Are you for it or against or somewhere in between?
I'm more towards the negative side of this program. Ill conceived form a military/political standpoint and I kind of look at Lockheed as custom car builders, granted with exception of the F-22. They should stick to special, low volume projects IMO. But in this aerospace environment...
 
Wow, the Canadian press is as bad as our own. So the CF-18, also something of a "jack of all trades, master of none" was just fine at doing whatever Canada wanted. Yet the F-35 is terrible because it isn't an F-22.
 
CM - I don't think that is the point that anyone is trying to make by quoting Hostage. Air defense is a big part of Canada's mission, so the F-35's capability in that role is an issue.


Also, the term "jack of all trades, master of none" more or less sums up what most AFs need (minus the pejorative overtone) unless they can afford more than one combat type.
 
Yet do any of the alternatives on the table for Canada offer enough over the F-35 in the air defense role to make them worth considering? Personally I doubt it.

Canada isn't going to be able to afford the larger high-performance fighters out there like the F-22, upgraded F-15E variants, or the Su-30/35, etc. So it real boils down to a competition between the F-35, Super Hornet, and the Eurocanards. While the Rafale and Eurofighter may offer some performance advantages in an air-to-air configuration, in the end it doesn't overrule all of the other factors.

And the whole "the J-31 is what the F-35 should have been" line again. ::)
 
sferrin said:
What? You think Lockheed Martin is dictating what Canada buys? For real?

[COUGH]Lockheed Bribery Scandals[COUGH]

Let us not forget the saga of the F11F-1F Super Tiger.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
Canada isn't going to be able to afford the larger high-performance fighters out there like the F-22, upgraded F-15E variants, or the Su-30/35, etc.

Ahem... these guys are cheaper to buy and to operate to a F-35 at the moment.
 
Re: Lockheed Martin F-35: News ONLY topic

Bruno Anthony said:
sferrin said:
What? You think Lockheed Martin is dictating what Canada buys? For real?

With the lack of competition in Western aerospace in general and the USA in particular LockMart can pretty much dictate to everyone.

Yeah, Lockheed's the Godfather and made Canada a deal they couldn't refuse. ::) Lack of competition? There's Super Hornets, 3 varieties of Eurocanard, F-15s. You could buy any of those.
 
LowObservable said:
Air defense is a big part of Canada's mission, so the F-35's capability in that role is an issue.

And the exact same thing couldn't have been said about the CF-18 for the last 30 years? After all, it isn't a Tomcat you know.
 

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