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Taiwan 5th-gen fighter studies
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Any more info on this 'Taiwanese version of the F-35'?
When was it reported, by whom?
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I do think a Taiwanese "version of the F-35" could be a way to strengthen Taiwan, without upsetting the PRC
in a similar way how Israel kept making their Israelized Mirages (as Kfir and Nesher) via discreet help from Dassault.
in a similar way how Israel kept making their Israelized Mirages (as Kfir and Nesher) via discreet help from Dassault.
Regarding this report, first of all, the image should be inaccurate, but just found one at random.yes
Any more info on this 'Taiwanese version of the F-35'?
When was it reported, by whom?
View attachment 687298
Secondly, I have read all the materials of several technologies under development pointed out in the figure, and I think their technical level and progress are limited:
The F-35 like Nozzle according to the published research documents, they are still in the computer simulation stage of simple fixed curved nozzle.
American technical support may refer to RAM coating(like blackwolf project黑狼计划) and engine technical support(VEGA?).
"Imitation f-35 air inlet"I think it refers to their ongoing DSI inlet design research.
P.S.
I think you will be interested in this:
Stealth coatings they have had at least two research projects(庐山专案/黑狼计划).The coating that Black Wolf(黑狼) project to develop is said to have been covered on AT-3 trainer with the number of 0825. Now it has been restored to the original coating.
The following are the only photos of that special AT-3 during the Black Wolf Project, It is easy to find that this aircraft is obviously different from other aircraft of the same model in dark green coating:
![%1Y@K3{PQXSKSH$FO4]I}CE.png](https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/data/attachments/222/222943-1262c0c3c043370235d335a5ab95d8cb.jpg "%1Y@K3{PQXSKSH$FO4]I}CE.png")
KUMA
Forgot to answer: I only know that the news is Reported by "Sanli News(三立新聞)"yes
Any more info on this 'Taiwanese version of the F-35'?
When was it reported, by whom?
View attachment 687298
I haven't found any information such as news videos and reporting time.
Forgot to answer: I only know that the news is Reported by "Sanli News(三立新聞)"yes
Any more info on this 'Taiwanese version of the F-35'?
When was it reported, by whom?
View attachment 687298
I haven't found any information such as news videos and reporting time.
Thanks, I also tried to find that news article at https://www.setn.com/, but have not found it yet.
Research on canopy stealth:
They made a Scale cockpit canopy model of F-22 by 3D printing, and after grinding and polishing, they put tinfoil paper on the inside, as a metal canopy model.Then they spread the FSS pattern with software, and made and pasted on the cockpit canopy for testing.
The test results are as follows:
RCS peak value of metal hatch model is -18.1dBsm.
The OT-RAS Stealth canopy with FSS is -25.6dBsm.
Overall decrease of 7.5dBsm.
They made a Scale cockpit canopy model of F-22 by 3D printing, and after grinding and polishing, they put tinfoil paper on the inside, as a metal canopy model.Then they spread the FSS pattern with software, and made and pasted on the cockpit canopy for testing.
The test results are as follows:
RCS peak value of metal hatch model is -18.1dBsm.
The OT-RAS Stealth canopy with FSS is -25.6dBsm.
Overall decrease of 7.5dBsm.
台版F-35四大進度 採大黃蜂雙引擎
空軍持續推動下一代戰機(ADF，先進防禦戰機)設計分析，據了解，軍方依據美國F-35外型，做出小型模型，已經完成風洞實驗等四大進展，前空軍副司令張延廷分析，在我方已經完成重型起落架情形下，應是採取奇異F414引擎雙發動機設計。
www.primenews.com.tw
Seems like Vega project to develop beeced up F125 is either on hold or scrapped, due to technical difficulties and subsequent cost increase. They plan to use twin F414 now. Airframe itself allegedly resembles F-35 (what do you expect, really)
Using F125s on a manned stealth jet...what were they thinking?!台版F-35四大進度 採大黃蜂雙引擎
空軍持續推動下一代戰機(ADF，先進防禦戰機)設計分析，據了解，軍方依據美國F-35外型，做出小型模型，已經完成風洞實驗等四大進展，前空軍副司令張延廷分析，在我方已經完成重型起落架情形下，應是採取奇異F414引擎雙發動機設計。
Seems like Vega project to develop beeced up F125 is either on hold or scrapped, due to technical difficulties and subsequent cost increase. They plan to use twin F414 now. Airframe itself allegedly resembles F-35 (what do you expect, really)
That's F125 upgraded under project Vega, not the baseline F125. That thing nears M88 levels of thrust and TWR
M88s are still a tad bit underpowered though...and when the usual requirements for stealth aircraft are considered; I don't think this aircraft could've performed that well...
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It depends on weight and size.
The Rafale (M88) is roughly twice the weight of the Ching Kuo, and has roughly twice the power.
Thus, both jets have a similar twr.
If they were going for F125 engines upgraded under Project Vega, the resultant aircraft planned would likely have been somewhere between the weight class of the Ching Kuo and Rafale.
I do understand that internal weapons carriage results in a more voluminous fuselage, and perhaps this is why changes to the engine were put in place.
The F125 is actually a good engine, considering.
The fact that the Taiwanese had so much experience with it made it a logical development leap-off point.
There were previous proposed developments of the F125, pushing thrust out to about 5000 kg dry, 7500 wet, placing it in the M88 or F404 bracket.
I can only assume Vega built on those foundations.
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Funny enough, the ideal fighter for the Taiwanese is a stealth Viggen.
@VTOLicious Yes, the FAR-21 is fairly reasonable for Taiwan's use case, assuming that it's got a decently short takeoff and landing. Only problem is what engine to power it with. F414 is likely to get blocked by the US. So, EJ2X0 or M88 (my preference between those two is EJ).
In the event of a shooting war between Taiwan and PRC, Taiwan is going to need aircraft designed around carrying AMRAAMs internally, because they'd be getting resupply from the US of whatever US missiles are in play.
In all seriousness, something the size of the F35 is the smallest "light fighter" most places are going to buy for a 5th gen aircraft.
@VTOLicious Yes, the FAR-21 is fairly reasonable for Taiwan's use case, assuming that it's got a decently short takeoff and landing. Only problem is what engine to power it with. F414 is likely to get blocked by the US. So, EJ2X0 or M88 (my preference between those two is EJ).
The limiting factor for a small 5thgen fighter/interceptor/air police is the weapons bay(s), not the internal avionics bulk. Even Sidewinders are 10ft long, AMRAAMs/Meteors are 12ft. Nobody is making "halfRAAMs" like the Cuda or whatever, ~6ft long missiles.
In the event of a shooting war between Taiwan and PRC, Taiwan is going to need aircraft designed around carrying AMRAAMs internally, because they'd be getting resupply from the US of whatever US missiles are in play.
In all seriousness, something the size of the F35 is the smallest "light fighter" most places are going to buy for a 5th gen aircraft.
If you want to go full stealth with an internal weapon bay, it will of course grow in size, weight and cost. If can you accept an external semi-integrated carriage of missiles, something like this could be very cost-effective and purchased in large numbers:
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I don't think that conformal carried missiles are compatible with stealth requirements. While conformal carriage doesn't really impact drag, I'm pretty sure it greatly increases RCS.
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www.upmedia.mg
New fighter development has been ultimately canned. The article mentions that the military already made up their mind during the last cabinet period, but was not able publicise due to the previous cabinet's domestic defence procurement policies.
It was for the most part a project far overshooting Taiwan's overall capabilities. Vega project failing to deliver was already a bad omen.
Now it really is all SAM (with some F-16s) or nothing.
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Taiwan may be able to buy into the KF21 program, though those won't be fully 5th gen till IIRC the 3rd production block.ãå§å¹ãåæ¢ç ç¼ä¸ä¸ä»£åé²æ°æ©ãæ©å¨è¡è±æä»»å§æè·¡å¯å¾ª--ä¸å ±
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New fighter development has been ultimately canned. The article mentions that the military already made up their mind during the last cabinet period, but was not able publicise due to the previous cabinet's domestic defence procurement policies.
It was for the most part a project far overshooting Taiwan's overall capabilities. Vega project failing to deliver was already a bad omen.
Now it really is all SAM (with some F-16s) or nothing.
(IIRC, first block is F404/414 engines and conformal AAMs, second block is 5gen engines and still conformal AAMs, third block is 5gen engines and weapons bay)
Ainen
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They can, but (1)SK probably will be extremely hesitant to sell to Taiwan, and (2)I like ROCAF optimism about normal CTOL fighters.
At this point, as wild as it sounds, I think AMCA is their only real hope of procuring a 5th gen fighter, although god knows when that aircraft would be ready.
US is not interested in selling any F-35s, and any 6th gen fighter will be prohibitively expensive for Taiwan's defence budget. That is, if the Europeans and Japanese are interested in selling their newest jet to Taiwan in the first place, which I also doubt. As for KF-21, it is as Ainen has mentioned in above post.
So India, one of the biggest 3rd world/non-aligned country, adversary to China with quickly deteriorating relationship might be the only one who wouldn't mind selling a 5th gen fighter to them. Also, they've been longing for an export success of their domestic equipment for so long, I think that they might be enticed to send AMCA to Taiwan despite Chinese opposition.
I mean, if China has helped Pakistan with their nuke programme and missile programme, collaborate on Jeff, sold J-10s, and is most likely to sell FC-31/J-35 in the near future, why shouldn't India sell AMCA to Taiwan?
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Manuducati
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What about the Turkish Kaan?
Scott Kenny
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I'm not convinced that AMCA will be better than a 4.5 gen.
India has severe dysfunction in their production and procurement.
Agree with this reasoning.
Big, expensive fighter. Remember, it's flying on a pair of F100s or F110s, it's basically an F15. I see Taiwan as wanting numbers.
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India is part of BRICS.
Indias trade with Taiwan is miniscule compared with mainland China.
Mainland China is Indias largest single entity trade partner.
India does not maintain official diplomatic relations with Taiwan, and recognises only mainland China.
They have never exported weapons to Taiwan.
Apologies about the politics, but people need to be realistic. Taiwanese acquisition HAS a huge political dynamic to it.
Like it or not, Taiwans ability to field a next generation fighter is going to be dependent on either the US, or a domestic fighter with US or European input.
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But remember that BRICS is talking about a group of economies, not a trade block.
It sure does.
And basically all of India's naval construction is predicated around a conflict with China, as is more than half of their heavy army procurement (dedicated tanks and helicopters for fighting in the Himalayas)
Disagree, South Korea doesn't have much to lose with recognizing Taiwan.
From my POV, all 4.5th gens are non-stealthy aircraft because the lack of the Low Observability is what mainly keeps 4th gen and 5th gen designs apart.
So, because AMCA (or Su-57) definitely has LO baked into its design as the main priority (stealth > aerodynamics), as long as it comes with IWBs and Conformal antennas from the beginning, it's all 5th gen to me...
-I'm not commenting ob the possibility of an AMCA sale to the island though, that's a whole other thing...-
~2035-ish for AMCA (IOC)? So maybe around 2040-ish for a sale to Taiwan in a hypothetical scenario?
By 2040s, the F-35s would become common tech a la F-16 among the US+Allies surrounding Eastern China, so why not? By then the first US 6th gens would also be nearing the intro into the service so it really wouldn't be as critical as it is now.
Besides, China definitely has already faced F-35s numerous times in the past so they'll keep having more and more data on it as years go by...
F110-GE-129
It's basically a 20.1-21 meter long Raptor-Lightning II hybrid powered by not F119s but F110s (for now)...
But we also jokingly call it a stealthy Eagle II (F-15EX) due to both having the same engine and space for powerful radars.
Manuducati
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Well, I wouldn't dismiss the Kaan so easily.
Taiwan options are not that plentiful, as several people have stated here before.
The Turkish option comes with fewer political ties than any other option, and as kaiserbill wrote above, politics is what will ultimately play.
Relations between China and Turkey haven't been so stable lately.
www.isdp.eu
Of course, Kaan is a big fighter. The advantage being long range and time in the air. Pair it with a few Kizilema if you want numbers (production has just started) and you have a potential solution for a next gen fighter force. Ideal? Probably not. But doable technically and politically methinks.
Taiwan options are not that plentiful, as several people have stated here before.
The Turkish option comes with fewer political ties than any other option, and as kaiserbill wrote above, politics is what will ultimately play.
Relations between China and Turkey haven't been so stable lately.
China-Turkey Relations: Conflicting or Colliding Interests? - Institute for Security and Development Policy
Cemre Pekcan writes on how China & Turkey take opposing positions on several global & regional issues but still manage the relationship to grow.
www.isdp.eu
Of course, Kaan is a big fighter. The advantage being long range and time in the air. Pair it with a few Kizilema if you want numbers (production has just started) and you have a potential solution for a next gen fighter force. Ideal? Probably not. But doable technically and politically methinks.
Ainen
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Turkish option is just as unlikely as SK one.
You have to find a country which doesn't care about Chinese economic wrath for a single fighter deal, and turkiye with it's rather fragile economy and politics built on balancing is most certainly not one.
Unless something changes significantly, ROCAF fighters will be either American or indigenous, period.
You have to find a country which doesn't care about Chinese economic wrath for a single fighter deal, and turkiye with it's rather fragile economy and politics built on balancing is most certainly not one.
Unless something changes significantly, ROCAF fighters will be either American or indigenous, period.
Turkey is a member state of BRI and has non-negligible trade relationship with China. I don't think the incentives of selling KAAN outlies the downsides.
BRICS is pretty much meaningless. As much as China is a significant trade partner for India, the opposite also applies. They are the biggest emerging market in the world. There's a reason China and Chinese firms are trying their best to continue do business India despite recent governmental hostilities against Chinese tech services and goods, as well as actual conflicts in the Himalayas that resulted in casualties.
India definitely can sell AMCA.
Problem is, even by 2035 F-35 will continue to be the workhorse 5th gen, and second best thing the US aerial power will possess just behind 6th gen. It won't be bleeding edge but will still continue to remain cutting edge with continuous upgrades. I don't think it would be "common tech" at all.
The problem is that, although F-35 is replacing the F-16, it is not and won't be the F-16 of the 21st century. I don't think the US would be willing to sell any F-35s in the next decade or two, even if Taiwan begs for F-35B desperately.
Taiwan Scraps Advanced Defense Fighter Program | Aviation Week Network
Taiwan is scrapping its Advanced Defense Fighter program, saying the country’s military primes do not possess sufficiently matured technologies to proceed.
aviationweek.com
Taiwan backs away from building its next fighter locally
Taiwan will procure its next combat aircraft in the USA, as opposed to developing a new type locally.
www.flightglobal.com
siegecrossbow
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Taiwan Scraps Advanced Defense Fighter Program | Aviation Week Network
Taiwan is scrapping its Advanced Defense Fighter program, saying the country’s military primes do not possess sufficiently matured technologies to proceed.
Taiwan backs away from building its next fighter locally
Taiwan will procure its next combat aircraft in the USA, as opposed to developing a new type locally.
No surprise really since they’ve been bleeding talents to South Korea for a very long time.
Ainen
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Well, they managed that trainer recently, so there was hope someone still works there
Given Indian ability or lack of in the dev and build of Tejas I doubt any potential export customer is hanging their hat on India having an AMCA available for export before 2045...
I've said for a while that the US and Taiwan need to establish a 21st century Flying Tigers. Taiwan pays the bills but the aircraft are operated by US, or potentially Allied, service personnel who take a leave of absence from their respective militaries to fly or maintain the aircraft in Taiwan for an approx one or two year stint. Would be easy to incentivise that type of arrangement and also provide a growing pool of allied military who understand the terrain and the local conditions.
Talent transfer from AIDC to Korea has been minimal at best.
If there's anythibg to blame, it's their non-commitment to Ching Kuo and buying Falcons as soon as it became available. That greatly jeopardised the sustainability of their Aviation industry and led to dismantling of their human resources.
Also, even if that talent somehow remained, a 5th gen fighter was still out of scope since their domestic capability concerning avionics development was bare minimum, if it does exist, since the IDF development.
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Boramae is more likely to fly in Taiwanese colors (even that is highly unlikely) than Kaan (completely impossible for the reasons said above).
The only viable Turkish platform that might be possible is a tech transfer for a Kizilelma powered by F125 engines.
Common engine with Ching-kuo, fitted with TC-2/3/5 would make for a great air-to-air platform.
Might even be turned into a manned fighter to offset China's EW.
But even this scenario is highly unlikely unless they offer a TSMC equivalent to be build in Turkey.
The only viable Turkish platform that might be possible is a tech transfer for a Kizilelma powered by F125 engines.
Common engine with Ching-kuo, fitted with TC-2/3/5 would make for a great air-to-air platform.
Might even be turned into a manned fighter to offset China's EW.
But even this scenario is highly unlikely unless they offer a TSMC equivalent to be build in Turkey.
Ainen
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They're going to do much of the last part anyway, if anything, because of Ching Kuo upgrades and related MIC projects.
The problem, unless they were delusional (which 2x f414 hints quite strongly, to be fair), should've been airframe.
Ainen
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It's objectively impossible to stop a determined air attacker through air defenses alone. Simple math of concentration is forever against you.
It's possible to make him bleed enough, sure - but by that point island's fate will be in peril, it has no sufficient depth.
Furthermore, there is a whole plethora of other tasks which SAMs can not do.
ROCAF as a force needs a competive (stealth) STOL fighter, but they clearly are stuck between budget/capability and unrealistic demands (2x f-414 is quite telling of what they wanted to achieve).
I guess fighting J-20s in F-16Vs(not exactly the most dispersable bird under watchful space eye of PLARF) will work better, but count me doubtful.
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