Taildog / SRAAM / ASRAAM family

I'll post this in the M270 thread as well....

More details on Land Precision Strike (LPS) the Brimstone/CAMM mash up....

I've been saying for an age that it would have at least 80km range....turns out I was wrong.....but in a very good way...

Turns out the range wanted is 150km....93 miles....

RAF will be out of business at this rate...can see LPS selling like hot cakes...

EDIT: The rocket being fired when the LPS detail comes up is the reduced range practice rocket, not LPS which doesn't actually exist yet.
And...on second thoughts I'm dubious on the 150km claim...I think this relates to the Long Range Engagement trial (GMLRS with Outrider UAV and FFLMM). I just can't see LPS getting over 100km (which is still impressive).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1694636973112045834
View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1694636973112045834?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
 
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red admiral said:
Might as well just arm the drones then
Click to expand...

Armed drones are a whole lot larger though...and correspondingly easier to kill as we're seeing in Ukraine.

The annoying thing is that the whole LPS concept would have been ideal when married up with the Sentinel R.1...which was recently retired....but there looks like there will be the MLRS deployed Outrider UAV's as well, and we know that Protector, and Reaper already, are/will be flying with a decent SAR payload.
 
The implications for M270, but also the whole Land Ceptor/Sea Ceptor system are pretty massive. I think you could guarantee that anyone who has purchased Sea Ceptor in particular will purchase LPS as well. Fast Attack Craft prosecuted at ridiculous ranges, but naval precision fire support to forces ashore at Zumwaltesque LRLAP ranges to boot....all from ships down to 1,500 tonnes. Key thing is cost. We know that Brimstone is c£90k, if they can keep the cost close to that, and there should be no real reason they can't, after all it will just have a longer, slower burning rocket motor...barring that all the components already exist as off the shelf items...

The whole CAMM/Brimstone/Spear ecosystem under Complex Weapons is getting more and more interesting...Asraam Block VI, CAMM, CAMM-ER, CAMM-MR and LPS...thats Air to Air to 60km, Surface to Air from 200m to 100km+ and surface to surface at 150km....then you get to Brimstone 3....fast air to 60km, rotary to 40km and ground launched to 20km+.....which then gets you to the Spear family with Spear, Spear-EW, SpearGlide and MRUSW....and this is really just the beginning....

What next....Meteor with a Spear seeker head? Ground launched Spear? Surface launched Meteor? Ground launched MRUSW like GLSDB? A Spear Recon variant? A loitering Spear? Supacat HMT600 SAM system as a production variant? Air launched CAMM-ER? Air launched LPS? Who knows....

Amidst all the MoD procurement f**kwittery Complex Weapons is a real beacon of success....wonder if we could transfer some of the programme team to the Armour programme? UK guided weapons lineup is incredibly good at the moment....
 
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Polish CAMM-ER procurement....its a bit of a monster...

138 launchers....c1,000 missiles.

I suspect that missile order is just the first as it doesn't provide any reloads for the launchers...EDIT: It says 'over a thousand'...which leaves a lot of room...

I think the Pilica one is around a similar number of CAMM missiles...

Translation via Google Translate

"Another contracts signed today, this time under the #NAREW program, cover the supply of essential elements of the short-range air and missile defense system, including 138 launchers and over a thousand #CAMM -ER missiles."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699042247025508836
View: https://twitter.com/AgencjaUzbr/status/1699042247025508836


In addition..

"Emotions are running high! The new contract provides for the acquisition of twenty-two Automated Command Posts (ZSD) #Zenit MP+ for Rocket and Artillery Sets (ZRA) #PILICA + in the years 2025-2029."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699042370421993545
View: https://twitter.com/AgencjaUzbr/status/1699042370421993545
 
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timmymagic said:
Someone has also helpfully posted an image of what a Pilica Battery looks like....those Polish Patriot systems (Wisla) are going to be very well looked after...
Click to expand...
Ouch, 6x 2x23mm guns.


timmymagic said:
And the launchers for the Polish AD system that is being built...
Click to expand...
CAMM for the middle ground and Patriot for the 150km work? I dig it.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Ouch, 6x 2x23mm guns.



CAMM for the middle ground and Patriot for the 150km work? I dig it.
Click to expand...

Its actually CAMM + Piorun + modernised ZU-23-2 for v short to medium range (0-c25km) on the Pilica+ system, protecting the Patriot system... Don't forget those ZU's have the well regarded Piorun mounted alongside as well...and an as yet unnamed C-UAS system.

CAMM-ER from 1-40+km on the Narew system as a standalone system (I do wonder if they'll have a couple of CAMM loaded for extreme close range protection)

Patriot with PAC-3 MSE for longer range work (the intention is to get CAMM-MR as well as a cheaper longe range round for less challenging targets, although whether this is launched from Narew or Patriot is unknown at present). I do also wonder if in the interim they'll buy some PAC-2 GEM-T for its longer range and lower cost...you can get 2 for the cost of 1 PAC-3.
 
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Just got posted in CAMM-Sea Wolf thread, but cross-posting here for completeness...

First really good look at CAMM-MR. As @WatcherZero points out, from the graphic behind, it appears to be dual-packed in a Mk.41 VL.

Perhaps we finally know what the RN can put in the Mk.41 on Type 26....

Dimensions wise it hard to tell exactly, assuming they're to scale (and I'm not sure they are) it looks around 50cm longer than CAMM-ER, but obviously considerably wider in the mid section. I would have thought well over 250mm. For it not to be quadpackable it would make sense that it is slightly wider than ESSM's 254mm diameter. You'd expect mass to be greater than ESSM as well at over 620lbs...To be honest I think the CAMM and CAMM-ER models are to the same scale, but I'm not sure on the CAMM-MR...

As expected its clearly going to fit on the Land Ceptor/Narew units as well. The mid section fins also appear to fold (not on the model, but in the imagery behind, with hinges clearly shown and the circular cap of the missile cell being seen)


https://twitter.com/x/status/1699351841996222920
View: https://twitter.com/JakOSpades/status/1699351841996222920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1699351841996222920%7Ctwgr%5Ea9698c4a7505198bfdc15750440c75e3ec66ed01%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk%2Fthreads%2Fsea-ceptor-camm-sea-wolf-replacement.14403%2Fpage-4
 
Interesting systems (I love this idea)
1 battery formation

2x CAMM ER / MR
1X Patriot
1 EACH protection cover by 23mm anti drone AA gun

2 radars protection cover by each 23mm anti drone AA gun (or toward escort transport/ ammo) to reduce profile (sneak)

Support by 2 ammo supply and 2 transport with cover 1 (or 2) of 23mm anti drone AA gun

6x Pilca+ twin vehicles 23mm anti drone AA gun (would be good if 8 indeed 6)

———————————————

If British adopted these similar

8x supacat hmt600 with DS30 30mm cannon with 5x LMM Martlet side (Seahawk) renamed them (landhawk) for escort or cover protecting
6x hmt600 laser anti missiles / drone “sea dragon” (if there budget for it)

2x Sky Sabre - 2 pod with 1 each 4x CAMM / 4x CAMM MR (2x escort hmt600 landhawk + laser)
1x Aster 30 block 2 (escort hmt600 landhawk + laser)

1x Griffen 4x (escort hmt600 landhawk) with 2x multiple launcher starstreak mk2
1x Griffen 1x (escort hmt600 landhawk) with 2x multiple launcher starstreak mk2

3x ammo (2x for CAMM and 1x ASTER 30) 2X Transporter (escorted 2x hmt600 landhawk + laser)

1x Mobile HQ (escort hmt600 landhawk + laser) with 2x multiple launcher starstreak mk2

Unfortunately I don’t think our budgets will does these.
 
timmymagic said:
The image in question.

https://imgur.com/AXE1Qmb
View: https://imgur.com/AXE1Qmb
Click to expand...
OOOO AWESOME

VLS

Quad packages CAMM
Duo Packages CAMM MR

Very good

Imagine Destroyers T45 they will have 72 cells (not surely) as they currently list Aster cells - 48 (mix aster 15 / 30) + 24 CAMM cells in 2026

Original 48 cells will be turn into 48x aster 30 block 1nt (no aster 15) plus Extra 24 cells “CAMM Cells” will be 12x QP CAMM (48) 12x DP CAMM MR (24)

I’m not sure it is correct about 24 extra or converted 48 split 2 x 24 one for camm (12x2) other for aster 30

Edit; Just reliese after see (double check) picture “8 Naval strike missiles” which is middle of ship so it confirms 24 extra cells is middle ship and front ships cell will turn aster 30 block 1”

VLS

24 cells CAMM
12x 48 or (8 x 36) CAMM
12x 24 or (14 x 36) CAMM-MR

48 Cells ASTER
48 aster

Double edit thank for point my mistake TomS: these pic possible be t26 / t31 which Poland will operate 3x own version of type 31
 
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djpowell1984 said:
OOOO AWESOME

VLS

Quad packages CAMM
Duo Packages CAMM MR

Very good

Imagine Destroyers T45 they will have 72 cells (not surely) as they currently list Aster cells - 48 (mix aster 15 / 30) + 24 CAMM cells in 2026

Original 48 cells will be turn into 48x aster 30 block 1nt (no aster 15) plus Extra 24 cells “CAMM Cells” will be 12x QP CAMM (48) 12x DP CAMM MR (24)

I’m not sure it is correct about 24 extra or converted 48 split 2 x 24 one for camm (12x2) other for aster 30
Click to expand...

We know the T45s are getting the "mushroom farm" CAMM launchers as in the refitted T23s, not Mk 41. So that probably precludes quad or dual packs of any sort. Sorry.
 
TomS said:
We know the T45s are getting the "mushroom farm" CAMM launchers as in the refitted T23s, not Mk 41. So that probably precludes quad or dual packs of any sort. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Ah :-( camm mushroom farm :-(

must be type 26 + type 31/32 (likely t31 as Poland and uk use this ship)
 
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timmymagic said:
its early days and little detail is known. I can't see any evidence to suggest it does in the images/mockups to date.
Click to expand...
I noticed two circles in line with each other on the naval vision. They could just be proximity fuse related, but I wouldn't have expected to see two in-line on the same side for that, or at least I'd expect to see them closer together if it was a laser-based proximity fuse. In fact the two black holes next to each other suggest a laser proxy fuse as per ASRAAM. That still leaves two unexplained circles, the bottom one being left of proxy fuse.

1694007870141.png
1694007772169.png
 
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Those two dots your arrow is pointing at are definitely the transmit and receive lenses of a laser proximity fuze.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Can you fit a pair of 380mm circles into a ~640mm square?
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Diagonally the square would measure 905mm, if you divided it into quarters of squares of 320mm you'd have 452mm available in each diagonally. Of course at that point the question could be, why isn't it quadpackable then?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Can you fit a pair of 380mm circles into a ~640mm square?
Click to expand...

Divide the width of a square by roughly 1.7 to find the diameter of the circles that fits two inside the square. So about 370mm minus some allowances. That jibes pretty well with being able to just barely fit a 13.5-inch (343mm) Standard Missile MR with minimal strakes in a dual-pack (which Raytheon patented a while back).
 
TomS said:
Divide the width of a square by roughly 1.7 to find the diameter of the circles that fits two inside the square. So about 370mm minus some allowances. That jibes pretty well with being able to just barely fit a 13.5-inch (343mm) Standard Missile MR with minimal strakes in a dual-pack (which Raytheon patented a while back).
Click to expand...
Thank you. Couldn't math today. I mean, I can draw it out, but getting the dimensions then becomes annoying.
 
Of course, now I'm trying to figure out how these big rectangular fins/strakes fit into a circular tube that tight. The aft body of the missile pinches in to fit the tail fins but the mid body doesn't.
 
TomS said:
Of course, now I'm trying to figure out how these big rectangular fins/strakes fit into a circular tube that tight. The aft body of the missile pinches in to fit the tail fins but the mid body doesn't.
Click to expand...

In the original CGI the mid body fins have hinges along their base while the tail fins have hinges half way along their width (which presumably then means an even folded diameter across the length of the missile to fit the cannister), but they dont have hinges in the physical mockup.

Edit: Noticed in the new video the tail fins now have continuous hinges at their base rather than smaller ones half way across like they did in the earlier renders and on the CAMM-ER, while on the CAMM-ER the body fins didnt fold but they now do on the CAMM-MR.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Can you fit a pair of 380mm circles into a ~640mm square?
Click to expand...
Pythagoras Theorem. A 640mm square is 905mm across the diagonal.

Or more accurately, the max. diameter is [2-sqrt(2)] x width of square = 0.586 x width, which gives 375mm.

The 380mm is ruler-to-screen measured from a picture of two mock-ups, so might not be massively accurate, even if the mock-ups themselves are scaled perfectly, since I'm squinting at mm markings. So if the width of the CAMM-ER was actually 5.25mm and not 5mm and the CAMM-MR 9.75mm and not 10mm, then that would make width 353mm not 380mm etc.

1694084966481.png
 
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It's all go at the moment....and I expect DSEi will bring even more clarity...I think CAMM-MR and LPS may be quite to the forefront...

According to a letter to the Defence Committee by James Cartlidge, Minister for Defence Procurement, France 'might' be interested in joining in with Land Precision Strike....not sure what their involvement would involve as the interesting bits already exist in the UK parts bin...

In addition more Land Ceptor launchers appear to be on the cards...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699350252254335144
View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1699350252254335144
 

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