Taildog / SRAAM / ASRAAM family

I think the implication of the fifth bullet is that CAMM-MR is probably a single pack in Mk 41, while the others can be quadpacked (Host-ExLS rises again...)
I'm actually expecting it to be quad-packable in Mk.41. I don't think they'd want to miss that data point, could make a huge difference in its utility/sales. And if ESSM can do it, I think CAMM-MR will as well.

If its actually called MR as well...it means someone is leaving the space free for an LR variant at some point as well...

If they were confident of it fitting in a quad-pack, wouldn't the claim be "more than 120 missiles in 4 Mk 41 modules" instead of "more than 100"? Could just be me over-reading a single advertising data point, though.

To me, the big Aster-style strakes imply needing more volume than something like ESSM. But as I just noted, this illustration isn't necessarily representative.
 
Caption at the bottom does say the image is for illustration only, so the final configuration could be different.

I think the implication of the fifth bullet is that CAMM-MR is probably a single pack in Mk 41, while the others can be quadpacked (Host-ExLS rises again...)
any missile at or under 10" diameter is (potentially) quad-packable in Mk41.

And I agree with timmymagic about there being a very strong push to make that a design spec.
 
If its actually called MR as well...it means someone is leaving the space free for an LR variant at some point as well...
Well the technology certainly opens that possibility up in yet another repacking into an even larger missile of higher performance.
At heart CAMM combines the soft/cold launch system with a strapdown INS, datalink midcourse update and terminal ARH.

Equally if the components can tolerate it the alternative is a -HS (high speed or HyperSonic) or -ABM development.

It's also likely that CAMM-MR may relate to LPS options in terms of missile diameter and rocket motor.
As it may to the concept of a Large Bore ASRAAM shown in the Tempest Weapons development options by MBDA.
 
It's also likely that CAMM-MR may relate to LPS options in terms of missile diameter and rocket motor.
I don't think it will. LPS calibre is 178mm, thats the same as the Brimstone seeker head to make re-packaging easily. Normal CAMM is 166mm. I think CAMM-ER exceeds 178mm in the mid-section, so the MR will definitely be wider. Besides you'd probably want a slower burning motor for LPS.

You never know we might see the green painted Meteor make a re-appearance...
 
2) - Anti-Armour Overwatch - A super Swingfire replacement. No MBT on earth could defend against a Mach 2/3 missile coming in near vertically, it wouldn't even need a warhead, KE alone would tear through a tanks top armour. A modern diving LOSAT. The speed of response, and range, would mean it could operate at much further range than Swingfire could and cover multiple units. Probably easiest to leave on Boxer and MAN chassis than add on to Ajax. Speed and angle of attack might make it immune to current or near term APS.
I guess the speed and targeting system could make for a decent AA missile
 
I guess the speed and targeting system could make for a decent AA missile
With BGOAA going to Brimstone 3 as the Swingfire replacement, realistically LPS (on land) would be launched from Land Ceptor or MLRS. In the first case that would make CAMM or CAMM-ER the first choice to engage. Whether or not MLRS becomes a launcher for other munitions, like CAMM, beyond GMLRS, GMLRS-ER, PrSM and LPS I'm not sure.
 
Think I mentioned this as a possibility a while ago....RAF appear to have found a use for all the legacy Asraam that are being replaced by the new Block VI production....they've stuck them on the back of a Supacat HMT600 (possibly ex-Soothsayer units) and they're in Ukraine, apparently have been in use for some months. Explains where the SAM's the UK was sending came from...

Now for ground launched Sea Wolf....

View: https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1687516943924809748

View: https://imgur.com/TUCXnuU
 
Last edited:
Think I mentioned this as a possibility a while ago....RAF appear to have found a use for all the legacy Asraam that are being replaced by the new Block VI production....they've stuck them on the back of a Supacat HMT600 (possibly ex-Soothsayer units) and they're in Ukraine, apparently have been in use for some months. Explains where the SAM's the UK was sending came from...

Now for ground launched Sea Wolf....

View: https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1687516943924809748

View: https://imgur.com/TUCXnuU
I mean, if they're getting close to the rocket lifetime, might as well donate them to someone actively firing them.
 
Think I mentioned this as a possibility a while ago....RAF appear to have found a use for all the legacy Asraam that are being replaced by the new Block VI production....they've stuck them on the back of a Supacat HMT600 (possibly ex-Soothsayer units) and they're in Ukraine, apparently have been in use for some months. Explains where the SAM's the UK was sending came from...

That's an excellent way of getting rid of old ASRAAM stock, saves the UK MoD the time and expense of properly de-milling them.
 
Here's part of a very interesting Times Article it comes from:

A Supacat truck armed to fire Asraams

A Supacat truck armed to fire Asraams

British ingenuity is also playing a role in the city’s defences, the colonel revealed. The Ministry of Defence has supplied several Supacat trucks rigged by British engineers to fire advanced short-range air-to-air missiles (Asraam). They are deployed primarily to intercept swarms of Russia’s Iranian-supplied Shahed suicide drones, but some of the systems are also supporting Ukraine’s counteroffensive.
The high-mobility vehicles can enter an area where Russian attack helicopters are operating, shoot and move away. Unlike other systems like Starstreak, the Asraam do not require a line of sight and can lock onto targets themselves if fired into their vicinity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
TD has spotted where the sensor comes from...and Gabi has expanded.

I do love a bit of re-use....air launched Asraam on ex-Tornado launch rails, ex-Soothsayer HMT600 and EO/IR sensor on mast from the Talisman counter-IED system....lovely stuff....

This also must mean that as the EO/IR turret when deployed on the mast will be in the way of the missiles in their position as seen in the only image so far, that the missiles launch rack either slews towards the target.....or, my bet, that it rotates into a vertical/near-vertical launch position....

View: https://twitter.com/thinkdefence/status/1687730088991752192?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1687737699065602048

Also....
Be interesting if, hidden in the image of the setup, that there is a 360 Blighter radar system on the mast as well....like in the Hawkeye system...that could be an incredibly capable system....

 
Last edited:
Here's the base components...

HMT600 Soothsayer (obvious EW payload removed)
View: https://imgur.com/zyzfeau


LAU-7/A rack (probably ex-RAF Tornado)
View: https://imgur.com/y9p4f5B



Chess Dynamics Mast and EO/IR sensor - From Mastiff Protected Eyes vehicle, part of the Talisman counter IED system
View: https://imgur.com/4zeSS3B


Asraam Block V (or lower) - Ex-RAF stock being replaced by new production Asraam Block VI
View: https://imgur.com/CJXs92T
 
Last edited:
If the UK is sending retired early block ASRAAMs along with the needed equipment to launch them then why isn't the US sending all of its retired MIM-72 Chaparral units too?
 
If the UK is sending retired early block ASRAAMs along with the needed equipment to launch them then why isn't the US sending all of its retired MIM-72 Chaparral units too?
Retired that long ago that I wonder if they have any left. Portugal could be the only real source of them if they're still in storage (retired in 2018)

But...NASAMS will fire AIM-9X alongside AMRAAM. NASAMS could also fire Asraam, which is where we were all assuming they would be going to...

Chaparral with AIM-9L/M/P would be a useful gap filler or 'expendable' front line AD system (i.e. you'd be happier risking it near the front than a NASAM's system). Colossal number of missiles available as well.
 
Last edited:
Oh look....I called this capability with ASRAAM over 18 years ago during FSC debates. Years before Team CW revealed CAMM.
Datalinks, and strapdown INS mean as long as you can provide a 'good enough' targeting data. The missile will do the rest.
 
Latest speculation is that the EO/IR unit may well in fact be the Chess Dynamics Hawkeye....which could mean there is a Blighter radar underneath....just out of sight...

This might make more sense than the Chess Dynamics/Thales ROTAS unit from the Mastiff Protected Eyes vehicle, as the UK has repeatedly said it would send C-UAS gear to Ukraine. The go to supplier for that in the UK would be the Blighter AUDS, which uses the Chess Dynamics Hawkeye, Blighter radars and Eagle Control Systems RF Disruptor. It could make some sense that there was commonality between the 2....

Possible that it is Leonardo's Nerio unit as well, but I think it's more likely the Hawkeye...hopefully with AESA radar panels out of sight....if so...thats a very capable set up.

Chess Dynamics Hawkeye is the one on the left, with AUDS set up (with different Chess EO/IR) on the right.
View: https://imgur.com/cl2tAeA


Chess Dynamics

Blighter AUDS

Leonardo Nerio ULR
 
More detail on the UK/Poland Future Common Missile (CAMM-MR)

Range well in excess of 100km (>54nm) and engagement altitude >20km (>65,000ft) is getting into Patriot territory.

View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1688845063055360000


Article Text from radar.rp.pl - re-tweeted by MBDA Poland - Translation by Google Translate

https://radar.rp.pl/przemysl-obronny/art38914121-dalekosiezny-pocisk-powiekszy-rodzine-rakiet-camm

The long-range missile will expand the CAMM missile family

The family of British anti-aircraft radar-guided CAMM missiles will probably see the new CAMM-MR missile with a range well in excess of 100 km. MBDA UK confirms: preparations have started.

The start of analyzes and conceptual work aimed at the production of weapons more powerful than the current CAMM (Common Anti-air Modular Missile) and CAMM-ER missiles was announced to journalists from Poland by the heads of MBDA UK during last week's visit to the facilities in Bolton near Manchester. Adrian Monks, director of MBDA UK for business development in Poland, emphasized that inspiration for British constructors also comes from partners from the East:

Warsaw is very keen to have a missile in the future that uses proven and effective solutions of CAMM missiles, but it could hit targets at a greater distance than, for example, the ER version missile offered for the future "Narew" air shield, operating at a distance of about 45 km - he explains monks.

Necessary changes to the launcher
The analyzes of MBDA UK specialists show that the future long-range missile bearing the MR mark would be a new design with a mass much greater than the current, not exceeding 99 kg, classic CAMM effectors. Due to the larger dimensions of the new weapon, the structure of the iLouncher launcher would also be rebuilt - instead of 4 containers with missiles, the launch container would contain one CAMM MR missile.

There is a discussion among specialists whether to extend the range of the weapon, a special booster should be used in the propulsion system to increase the thrust.

These other decisions and decisions regarding the design of the missile are still before MBDA specialists - says Monks. - However, it is clear what we intend to achieve: the target is missiles with a range well over 100 km and capable of reaching a ceiling of about 20 km - he adds.

The British emphasize that it is very important, especially in the light of the war experience in Ukraine, to preserve all the advantages and capabilities of CAMM family effectors in the future CAMM-MR design. The unique cold-start technique of missiles makes it much easier, for example, to mask positions and hide launchers deployed in the field, experts say.

The great career of anti-aircraft missiles

Let's remind. Radar-guided CAMM (Common Anti-Air Modular Missiles) missiles, which initially protected Royal Navy ships as a deck weapon, are now making a rapid career in ground-based anti-aircraft systems of the British and Italian armies.

CAMM missiles are very precise weapons capable of engaging fast targets such as cruise missiles and aircraft. In addition, it is extremely effective in destroying enemy combat drones.

The CAMM system is multi-channel, which means that it is able to track and fight a dozen or more targets at the same time. A single radar-guided CAMM missile weighing less than 1 ton can reach a speed of 3700 km/h and destroy fighters, unmanned aerial vehicles and even laser-guided precision bombs. CAMM/CAMM-ER are the only Western anti-aircraft missiles that use the so-called cold start.

Discreet and concealed pneumatic start

The CAMM rocket is first launched from the launch container by means of a pneumatic catapult, then its miniature rocket thrusters are activated, turning the missile towards the target, and only then the rocket thruster is activated. Thanks to this, the position of the launcher is difficult to detect, because the launch of missiles in the first phase of flight is not accompanied by a blast and fire of muzzle gases. In addition, the rockets are fired from vertical launchers, which shortens the reaction time and increases the ability to engage targets in a full 360-degree range. In addition, the rocket engine of the CAMM missiles uses the so-called insensitive fuel with the highest degree of security in this class of weapons.

According to Polish experts, CAMM and CAMM-ER anti-aircraft systems are currently among the most effective in NATO countries. The missiles are equipped with an active jamming-resistant radar guidance system. Also Polish elements of the missile set are introduced to the top technological shelf.

According to MBDA UK, future long-range CAMM MR missiles, the development of which is just beginning, could reach the state of operational readiness and supply allied arsenals only in the early 2030s.
 
Last edited:
So to summarise what we know so far...

CAMM-MR or Future Common Missile

  • Vertical launch
  • Cold launch
  • No quad packing, will probably take up the volume of 4 CAMM cannisters. (Personally I'm not sure about this as it would mean 2 per launcher only, which is a little low, I suspect they'd aim for 4 per launcher, the flatrack is fairly adaptable dimensionally, quad packing is a huge advantage)
  • Will obviously be longer than CAMM, but still fit lengthwise on the Land Ceptor launcher. (There is at least 0.5m at the front of the rack to play with and at least 1m at the rear).
  • Active Radar seeker at a minimum. (I do wonder if they'll look at dual mode as well)
  • >100km range
  • >65,000ft height capability
  • Using same data link for compatability
  • Sensor agnostic as per other CAMM variants
  • Same launcher system. (On land at least, no direct mention of naval to date, however, the only potential imagery of the missile was in front of the Polish A140 Frigate and specific mention was made of the Polish Air Force, Navy and Army running a shared stockpile approach like the RN and British Army)
  • If it is proceeded with will arrive after 2030
  • May use a 2 stage approach with booster and tip over mechanism being expended after use. (I think this would be sensible, but would add cost)
  • EDIT: - Cost - For the Polish to be interested it must be significantly cheaper than the other Patriot system long range missiles that they are buying.

It all sounds good, and has really good implications for the UK as well....my only question is for that sort of performance why not just go for a ground launched Meteor? A boosted Meteor has been proposed before, would easily fulfil the performance criteria, probably exceeding it dramatically and you could get 6 on the launcher with few problems...how it all interfaces with the rest of the MBDA also is unclear. For example if you're building a much larger missile in diameter do you continue to use the same seeker from MBDA Italia? Or go for more performance? Will the existing CAMM seeker still be viable in terms of its performance and obsolescence management from 2030 onwards in a new missile?
 
Last edited:
It all sounds good....my only question is for that sort of performance why not just go for a ground launched Meteor?
Ramjets have limitations of operational envelope. For CAMM-MR it's likely more important to have higher performance in the final phase of interception than is achievable with a ramjet.

The best options for Meteor are more likely in DEAD and rapid striking of time limited surface targets.
 
Ramjets have limitations of operational envelope. For CAMM-MR it's likely more important to have higher performance in the final phase of interception than is achievable with a ramjet.

The best options for Meteor are more likely in DEAD and rapid striking of time limited surface targets.
Well thats if arminger would still be a thing because the normal meteor right now can't do DEAD.
 
So CAMM-MR appears to be an almost entirely new missile? Possibly shares the seeker, warhead, maybe some C2 software? Unless its a two stage design that just boosts the "existing" weapon (still likely requires significant redesign)

Given that this ian't a funded UK programme, are Poland paying MBDA UK to develop this new missile for/with them?
 
So CAMM-MR appears to be an almost entirely new missile? Possibly shares the seeker, warhead, maybe some C2 software? Unless its a two stage design that just boosts the "existing" weapon (still likely requires significant redesign)

If it's a whole lot bigger, which they seem to be implying I would have thought it would have had a new, larger warhead. Similar story with the seeker. If you've got more space for it to occupy do you have a larger one? Or go Dual Mode?

If it's fitting on the same launcher racks I can't see a booster alone giving the necessary additional range, plus you'd not be effectively using all that additional space effectively.

Given that this ian't a funded UK programme, are Poland paying MBDA UK to develop this new missile for/with them?

It's not really a programme yet. Just very early stages and scoping. UK and Poland did sign an MoU to develop it, the actual nuts and bolts of what that agreement is weren't divulged.

Ramjets have limitations of operational envelope. For CAMM-MR it's likely more important to have higher performance in the final phase of interception than is achievable with a ramjet.

Surely its 'powered all the way' nature gives it that higher performance in the final phase, more so than an expended rocket on coast?
 
Well we can only guess but i think its gonna get some parts from Aster 30 like the new seeker from aster 30 1NT to safe cost. But if the Picture is true which First showed the CAMM MR design / Concept it could be a CAMM-ER with a mutch bigger booster only.
Looks like close two double the diameter so we can guess around ~380mm. Maybe 290mm like PAC 3 MSE has. Could also be longer than before.
 

Attachments

  • FyuzfD1WAAAj71G.png
    FyuzfD1WAAAj71G.png
    405.2 KB · Views: 36
If it's a whole lot bigger, which they seem to be implying I would have thought it would have had a new, larger warhead. Similar story with the seeker. If you've got more space for it to occupy do you have a larger one? Or go Dual Mode?
Well, on the SM-6, the USN took an AMRAAM seeker and gave it a much bigger antenna.

But if we're talking SARH missiles, I'd rather go dual mode and add an IR seeker. On that note, does anyone have a picture of the business end of an AIM-7R?
 
And I suppose Raytheon took advantage of that much bigger antenna to give it better seeker electronics?
Not as reported, but the antenna diameter about doubled, so even without improved seeker electronics, it has an antenna 4x the area for better sensitivity and range.
 
Defense Updates put up a video about ground launched ASRAAMs in Ukraine yesterday:


Ukraine war is known for its innovative military developments.For example, in this conflict, we have seen commercial drones being rigged to carry explosives and used as an offensive tool.
Social media reports suggest that a new mobile ground-based air defense system has made its way into Ukraine which uses AIM-132 ASRAAM (Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile).As per comments made by an unknown Ukrainian lieutenant colonel working in Kyiv’s air defense command, The Times reported that the UK Ministry of Defense (MoD) had sent a few Supacat trucks rigged by British engineers to fire ASRAAM.According to the report, these systems “are primarily deployed to intercept swarms of Russia’s Iranian-supplied Shahed suicide drones, but some of the systems are also supporting Ukraine’s counteroffensive.”
In this video, Defense Updates analyzes how AIM-132 ASRAAM with mobile launcher could be super useful for Ukraine ?

I suspect that these AIM-132s are early production blocks and the UK MoD is using this to clear older stock from their inventory (Saving them having spend time and money de-milling old stock) to make way for the new ITAR-free Block 6 ASRAAMs, I wonder how many pre-Block 6 ASRAAMs are left? anyway if the war drags on I can see Ukraine running through all of the older stuff then getting Block 6 replacement rounds.

Edit: does anyone else think these ground launched ASRAAMs are going to be the bane of the Ka-52 Hokum-Bs in Ukraine?
 
Last edited:
I suspect that these AIM-132s are early production blocks and the UK MoD is using this to clear older stock from their inventory (Saving them having spend time and money de-milling old stock) to make way for the new ITAR-free Block 6 ASRAAMs, I wonder how many pre-Block 6 ASRAAMs are left?
100% no way the MoD would send Block VI there. You'd have to think that Block V and lower Asraam's number in the hundreds. The original UK buy was significant. There should also be a number available from Australia (someone mentioned at least 40 left, but that doesn't track at all. The Australian's have always purchased decent numbers of weapons to equip their squadrons and Asraam was the main WVR for their 70+ strong F/A-18 fleet, I would have thought that they had a couple of hundred left at least).

To be honest the RAF firing off 53 missiles in a missile firing camp, of a soon to be retired missile, now sounds like profligacy rather than a sensible use of a soon to be discarded asset...

Edit: does anyone else think these ground launched ASRAAMs are going to be the bane of the Ka-52 Hokum-Bs in Ukraine?
You'd hope so as I can't think of any other really mobile system that the Ukrainian's have that can reach the ranges required. Would have thought that the potential for a radar on the mast, like the Blighter, would have been critical then.
 
The beauty is the lack of radar, no warning until it's too late.
Search radar won't be recognised as easily as a threat. It's only when a radar locks on that te crew would really notice, but with IR seeker on the Asraam they wouldn't get that. There will be plenty of radar at the front.
 
I suspect that these AIM-132s are early production blocks and the UK MoD is using this to clear older stock from their inventory (Saving them having spend time and money de-milling old stock) to make way for the new ITAR-free Block 6 ASRAAMs, I wonder how many pre-Block 6 ASRAAMs are left? anyway if the war drags on I can see Ukraine running through all of the older stuff then getting Block 6 replacement rounds.
I don't see Ukraine getting Block 6s until the entire UK arsenal has been replaced.

And if that means cleaning out the Aussies and everyone else with ASRAAMs old stock, so be it.


100% no way the MoD would send Block VI there. You'd have to think that Block V and lower Asraam's number in the hundreds. The original UK buy was significant. There should also be a number available from Australia (someone mentioned at least 40 left, but that doesn't track at all. The Australian's have always purchased decent numbers of weapons to equip their squadrons and Asraam was the main WVR for their 70+ strong F/A-18 fleet, I would have thought that they had a couple of hundred left at least).
Not until the UK have no Block5-and-below even in their war stocks.

To be honest the RAF firing off 53 missiles in a missile firing camp, of a soon to be retired missile, now sounds like profligacy rather than a sensible use of a soon to be discarded asset...
How so?

If the rockets are going to age out and need to be replaced, you either re-manufacture the missiles or scrap them, those are the only two options. Cracked solid rocket motors are explosives, not propellants! Might as well use up some that you are otherwise going to scrap. Also, IIRC that missile firing camp was before the Russo-Ukrainian war kicked off, so there was no serious warning about needing to save the back stock.
 
How so?

If the rockets are going to age out and need to be replaced, you either re-manufacture the missiles or scrap them, those are the only two options. Cracked solid rocket motors are explosives, not propellants! Might as well use up some that you are otherwise going to scrap. Also, IIRC that missile firing camp was before the Russo-Ukrainian war kicked off, so there was no serious warning about needing to save the back stock.

The missile firing camp was in October 2022. 8 months into the Russia-Ukraine war.

If someone in MoD hadn't worked out that maybe, just maybe, those missiles might have a use in Ukraine they're dafter than we thought...
 
The missile firing camp was in October 2022. 8 months into the Russia-Ukraine war.

If someone in MoD hadn't worked out that maybe, just maybe, those missiles might have a use in Ukraine they're dafter than we thought...
Have you met the people that work at the Pentagon (or the UK equivalent)? They're usually assigned there to get them out of the way of fighting the war.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom