Why not just go to Russia/China for engines? After the s400 deal, engines shouldnt be an issue.
1.) First is that of TF-X prototype manufacturing. From Turkish sources I read that 5 prototypes in total are to be manufactured in EMD phase. Of these, 2 are to be powered by F110 (hence the 5 F110 engines Turkey allegedly "already ordered and have been delivered/under deliveries") and the rest of those 3 to be powered by Turkish turbofan engine.
The problem is, the Turks are planning to fly the engine for the first time in 2028. TF-X mass production is planned to be 2029. That means, until just 1 year before mass production, those 3 prototypes with Turkish engines are out there with no engine to fly with. In other words, the Turks should carry out their EMD process with just 2 prototypes which is ridiculous.
2.) Secondly, I've got to remember, that during the first bid for the development of the Turkish engine, where two parties, TEI and TAEC consortium participated, TEI have claimed that they could develop an indigenous engine given 14 years time. IIRC this was during 2019 or something like that. TAEC was chosen in that bid but ultimately the whole bid fell through because RR were done with the Turkish demands for IP rights.
Soon enough TR Motor emerged with TAI's share in it. Considering this and the fact that TEI, a TAI subsidiary, is the only company in Turkey that has sizeable gas turbine engine expertise and know-how, it is reasonable to think that the engineers of TR Motor would probably be TEI engineers.
So when this is the case, how come does TR Motor all the sudden claim that they could develop a turbofan engine for TF-X ready for mass production and application until 2029? That is just 10 years from 2019, 4 years shy of what TEI claimed was the necessary timeline to develop such an engine. Considering the fact that outside parties like GE and RR are still not involved in this program, there seems no factor to exist, that would help Turkey shorten their development timeline for a whopping 4 years.
Apart from all these, the plan to develop a 4.5th generation aircraft, the block 1 aircrafts, by 2029 and further develop a full-blown 5th generation aircraft by 2031, the block 2 aircrafts, is rather questionable. What kind of development plan is it, that a 4.5th generation aircraft becomes a 5th gen aircraft within 2 years time?
Well this at least is just my personal thought unlike the questions above which are based on the information given out by no other than the Turkish officials.
Yes, Russia as an alternate source seems obvious, but if the stumbling block is tech transfer, I doubt they will offer what Turkey is looking for either. Case in point, there are contentious issues regarding the degree of tech transfer and/or licensed production under the S-400 deal too, AFAIK.
what are the options right now?
M88 - Probably unlikely. France and Turkey are on opposing sides in regards to the Med dispute and France is very pro Greece
F414/404 - Unsure. I thought it was the leading candidate but there's been a rift in regards to the S-400 system. not sure if its enough to stop the export of jet engines
EJ200 - assuming its the UK, Italy and Germany that can control its export. UK seems still friendly to Turkey. Italy is on the same side with Turkey on the Med disputes. Germany may oppose
RD-93 - I think the Russians are willing to export, but do the Turks want this engine?
WS-11 and WS-13 - would this be the first time Turkey imports anything from the PRC?
The point of contention is if Turkey could use the F110s they produce under license, for something that it wasn't originally meant to be used for. The US was very unhappy a few times when their defense products exported to another country were used or handled in a way they were not meant to be used for. I think this is a problem beyond NATO and considering Turkey is under sanctions regardless of being a NATO member for its purchase of S-400s, this could even give a leeway for the US to block Turkey from purchasing parts for their F-16s as a whole.I also don't see how the US will rationally justify banning them from using an F110 in their demonstrators given they are part of NATO and that defense resilience is central to NATO interest.
Then any discussions for licence production is another matter that only would have to be debated in no less than a decade...
To be honest, the only case of transfer of technology concerning gas turbine core which I could think of that happened during the last 4 decades is when the US transferred F110 technology to Japan during FSX, soon F-2.Yes, Russia as an alternate source seems obvious, but if the stumbling block is tech transfer, I doubt they will offer what Turkey is looking for either. Case in point, there are contentious issues regarding the degree of tech transfer and/or licensed production under the S-400 deal too, AFAIK.
What I meant is that the engine and tech transfer doesn't have to be either/or deal. They get whatever engine (without tech) they can right now, one that can reasonably be replaced with an engine of similar weight/size/class in the next 10 to 15 years. And use that engine, right now, to help the v1.0 variant of their fighter get off the ground as soon as possible. (which may still be 10 years)
During all those years, they try to get various tech transfer deals from whoever they can, so they can one day (in 10 to 15 years?) start making such an engine on their own. Sure, it will probably be a 1990s/2000s tech engine being made in 2030s, but it's better than nothing. It would still power their plane alright and overall the capability leap over their F16s should still be satisfactory, WHILE achieving their goal of self sufficiency in steps.
They are not completely blank concerning avionics tech, just like how they plan to replace MC, radar and few other components of their F-16 block 30 with their own AESA and MC in özgür program.While trying to understand how constituents of TFX will come to be, it'll be shortsighted not to put into context the amount of technical expertise and funding Turkey can bring to bear.
If the current level of technical capabilities can be empirically ascertained, then just following the successive investments over the years into R&D and production infrastructure will provide a good enough bearing on where this program is headed.
Relying solely on miraculous (due to ever changing geopolitics) externalities like another country (UK, Russia) providing core technologies and assessment into the program is a fig leaf. They can, at best, do 'technical studies' due to diplomatic efforts that provide some sense of direction of what needs to be done, but don't expect a handholding assistance, and as such, Turkey will need to do most of what is required on its own.
What I meant is that the engine and tech transfer doesn't have to be either/or deal. They get whatever engine (without tech) they can right now, one that can reasonably be replaced with an engine of similar weight/size/class in the next 10 to 15 years. And use that engine, right now, to help the v1.0 variant of their fighter get off the ground as soon as possible. (which may still be 10 years)
The requirement for tech transfer would still NEED to be there, only not right away, not necessarily tied with the engine purchase. Thing is - it should be easier for Turkey to get tech transfer if:What I meant is that the engine and tech transfer doesn't have to be either/or deal. They get whatever engine (without tech) they can right now, one that can reasonably be replaced with an engine of similar weight/size/class in the next 10 to 15 years. And use that engine, right now, to help the v1.0 variant of their fighter get off the ground as soon as possible. (which may still be 10 years)
Well, if you drop the requirement for tech transfer there is no more reason to look anywhere other than the UK offer. EJ200 has a development road map out to 120kN (formerly known as EJ230) which is probably exactly what RR offered, albeit without the degree of localization desired by Turkey. So if tech transfer was a sticking point serious enough to end the UK partnership, turning to Russia is not going to solve this problem.
In other words, the model you propose could work just fine with a RR-supplied thrust-augmented EJ200, though it might be a bit more expensive than buying Izd.117S off the shelf. The political cost on the other hand...
The requirement for tech transfer would still NEED to be there, only not right away, not necessarily tied with the engine purchase. Thing is - it should be easier for Turkey to get tech transfer if:
A) the engine tech is not very advanced
B) the engine tech does not come from US/UK
The requirement for tech transfer would still NEED to be there, only not right away, not necessarily tied with the engine purchase. Thing is - it should be easier for Turkey to get tech transfer if:What I meant is that the engine and tech transfer doesn't have to be either/or deal. They get whatever engine (without tech) they can right now, one that can reasonably be replaced with an engine of similar weight/size/class in the next 10 to 15 years. And use that engine, right now, to help the v1.0 variant of their fighter get off the ground as soon as possible. (which may still be 10 years)
Well, if you drop the requirement for tech transfer there is no more reason to look anywhere other than the UK offer. EJ200 has a development road map out to 120kN (formerly known as EJ230) which is probably exactly what RR offered, albeit without the degree of localization desired by Turkey. So if tech transfer was a sticking point serious enough to end the UK partnership, turning to Russia is not going to solve this problem.
In other words, the model you propose could work just fine with a RR-supplied thrust-augmented EJ200, though it might be a bit more expensive than buying Izd.117S off the shelf. The political cost on the other hand...
A) the engine tech is not very advanced
B) the engine tech does not come from US/UK
Also, long term compatibility would need to be taken into account. If Turkey does get to buy off the shelf EJ200 - and then gets tech transfer from Russia or China - it might be quite hard to re-design the whole plane to accept different engines.
On the other hand, The Chinese WS13 is allegedly modeled to be interchangeable with Russian RD93. So any of those two engines might work. If Turkey can get off the shelf engines of either of those two makes now and then tech transfer in 10 years time, the overall conversion process would be much more seamless.
Downside is, of course, that those engines are not advanced, but if the other options like EJ200 are politically unavailable (as tech transfers) then there's there's just one course of action anyway. And technological independence is likely much more important for Turkey than having a generation newer engine in their TFX fighter.
If Turkey insists on transfer of advanced engine tech, B) won't help because non-Western players will guard their IP just as jealously. If it is prepared to accept A) however, why not reverse-engineer the F110, for which substantial know how is available locally?
TFX is, as far as I can tell, a very undefined project still. It started off as a medium class fighter. The fact they sought 90 kn thrust EJ200 shows as much. But since the F110 is the best thing Turkey can hope for at this moment, that may have pushed them to revise the design. Some sources still mention the 27 ton MTOW specification. If that IS true, then it's still a medium class plane somewhat. Of course, that may be just an old figure, back when EJ200 was in play. Interestingly, Avic's FC-31 MTOW figure was 28 tons. For a plane with two 90-100 kn engines.But please correct me if I'm wrong: By all I know about the TFX, it is aimed to be a fighter larger/heavier than a F-15 or broadly comparable to a Raptor. As such any engine below a F110 - and IMO even this is not powerful enough - like a EJ200, an F414, M88, RD-93 or WS-13 is anyway irrelevant. Or are you discussing an engine for the Hürjet?
On the other hand, as you yourself said, China and Russia do have a vested interest in pulling Turkey closer to them. So in light of that, a decision could be made to sacrifice a bit of technological edge by selling previous generation engine tech. If that'll help seal the deal.
And if they tried completely reverse engineering F110 from scratch - well that's quite problematic. China tried it, and it took them basically 30 years to pull it off, with WS10 being the final result, mating all sort of technology in one final design.
How long it might take Turkey is anyone's guess, depending on just how much they already know about F110, but it's still plausible we're talking a decade or two.
If more thrust is needed then just use three enginesBut please correct me if I'm wrong: By all I know about the TFX, it is aimed to be a fighter larger/heavier than a F-15 or broadly comparable to a Raptor. As such any engine below a F110 - and IMO even this is not powerful enough - like a EJ200, an F414, M88, RD-93 or WS-13 is anyway irrelevant.
If more thrust is needed then just use three enginesBut please correct me if I'm wrong: By all I know about the TFX, it is aimed to be a fighter larger/heavier than a F-15 or broadly comparable to a Raptor. As such any engine below a F110 - and IMO even this is not powerful enough - like a EJ200, an F414, M88, RD-93 or WS-13 is anyway irrelevant.
Its as realistic as some of the other options
Expect an IP infringement strike by Turbokat.If more thrust is needed then just use three enginesBut please correct me if I'm wrong: By all I know about the TFX, it is aimed to be a fighter larger/heavier than a F-15 or broadly comparable to a Raptor. As such any engine below a F110 - and IMO even this is not powerful enough - like a EJ200, an F414, M88, RD-93 or WS-13 is anyway irrelevant.
Its as realistic as some of the other options
If Turkey insists on transfer of advanced engine tech, B) won't help because non-Western players will guard their IP just as jealously. If it is prepared to accept A) however, why not reverse-engineer the F110, for which substantial know how is available locally?
While F110 is claimed to be made in Turkey - how do we know just how much of it is actually made by Turkey? Is it final assembly? Or production of all parts? There could very well be subsystems that Turkey would be lacking. https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....V002T02A020/2397636/v002t02a020-88-gt-305.pdf
Thanks for that chart. So, taking that at face value, by 2017 TEI was missing technology on:
Fan blades
High pressure compressor blades
Low pressure compressor blades
Vanes (also throughout the engine?)
Booster spools
Turbine blades
There's also the red dots throughout the central line of the engine. Not sure what those refer to. There is a line mentioning long low pressure turbine shafts, but it's unclear if the red dots are referring to that shaft.
If Turkey insists on transfer of advanced engine tech, B) won't help because non-Western players will guard their IP just as jealously. If it is prepared to accept A) however, why not reverse-engineer the F110, for which substantial know how is available locally?
While F110 is claimed to be made in Turkey - how do we know just how much of it is actually made by Turkey? Is it final assembly? Or production of all parts? There could very well be subsystems that Turkey would be lacking. https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....V002T02A020/2397636/v002t02a020-88-gt-305.pdf
This issue was brought up in a recent interview with TEI General Manager, he pulled up a chart which showed areas in which Turkey had to work on to gain technological knowhow on - the studies and initiatives to gain the technology started in 2014 and completed with the red dots shown in the illustration of a Turbofan jet engine. Illustration claims all knowhow on critical parts of a turbofan engine were accumulated by september of 2017
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I'd also like to add that Turkey and Ukraine are working closely together to develop new generation of Gas Turbine engines for ship propulsion - we may see this expand to aerospace.
Turkish, Ukrainian firms ink defense deal
Turkish energy firm LODOS Propulsion signed a defense deal with Ukrainian gas turbine producer Zorya-Mashproekt, owned by the Ukrainian state-run defense...www.dailysabah.comUkraine to supply engine for Turkey’s next-gen cruise missile: local media
Contracts have been signed between a Ukrainian engine developer, Ivchenko-Progress, and several suppliers for parts of the AI-35 engines that are expected...www.dailysabah.com
Woopsie, that's a typo. I meant 20 years. 20 years because it was still an iteration of the F3. It took them 24 years after that to go from 1,400ºc to 1,600ºc of XF5.Don't forget that CAE is among us (CAD/CFD). There is also undoubtedly some untold or secretive cooperation here and there.
So it won't take them 40 years. A decade is a reasonable time-line.
Remember that they are not targeting 21st century turbine Inn ovation but late 20ths.
And then there's F135 burning the first turbine blade at 2000°C.I would not be so confident to believe if anyone claims that Turkey has an engine with TIT of over 1,400 ºc and that figure already is very generous.
This at least is encouraging that they already have the infrastructure to develop a F110-GE-129 class engine they are aiming for. Well, in fact the reason we doubt this engine program is because of its timeline (production ready by 2029), not because Turkey lacks the infrastructure or anything alike.
Yes that surely is something, although there are some opinions that say it should actually be 3,200°F not 3,600°F, doubting the figures from Langston's article. Very interesting subject to discuss about but its unfortunately OT.And then there's F135 burning the first turbine blade at 2000°C.I would not be so confident to believe if anyone claims that Turkey has an engine with TIT of over 1,400 ºc and that figure already is very generous.