TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[r16]

ah , the heroism of building a National warplane .

at least the Koreans seem to be shaken off from another ripping off . These things tend to be like bank robberies you know . And perhaps a reason why we will be buying the most expensive tank of the world ....

 

[Reaper]

Interesting, CATIA models!
from my experience, CATIA models in a conceptual design departments look more detailed with messier tree structure!

 

[_Del_]

Probably we will see double engine Eurofighter size design in the end

That's unfortunate because I think Turkey could probably build a capable and interesting Tejas or FC-17 style homebuilt F-16 replacement (and potential T-X contender) with enough national will, while an indigenous EFA- class procurement program is probably not viable.

 

[ocay]

Some details about the programme:

1. Aircraft serial production expected to start in 2030

2. Turkish Airforce will buy 250 aircraft to replace F-16s

3. RAF plan to modernise its Eurofighter fleet with TF-X avionics

4. New engine to developed based on EJ200 design by RR for TF-X

http://m.haberturk.com/ekonomi/teknoloji/haber/1373433-7-milyar-dolara-250-ucak-alip-savas-teknolojisi-getirecegiz

 

[red admiral]

Definitely a big question mark over point 3. Seems unlikely given the need to get all 4 Eurofighter nations onhoard.

Does Turkey teally have $7bn to spend on this?

 

[kaiserd]

Some details about the programme:

1. Aircraft serial production expected to start in 2030

2. Turkish Airforce will buy 250 aircraft to replace F-16s

3. RAF plan to modernise its Eurofighter fleet with TF-X avionics

4. New engine to developed based on EJ200 design by RR for TF-X

http://m.haberturk.com/ekonomi/teknoloji/haber/1373433-7-milyar-dolara-250-ucak-alip-savas-teknolojisi-getirecegiz

To be blunt re: points 3 & 4 this interpretation is perhaps too flattering re: Turkey and the TF-X.
The far more likely scenario is that the TF-X will use (and Turkey will help fund) improved Eurofighter avionics (like the new active scanned array) and EJ200s which will then be adapted for the TF-X.
100 million not nearly enough to pay for anything remotely "new" in this regard.
Still a sensible move by Turkey to de-risk these aspects; you can look to the problems India has never really resolved with their LCA to see how this can go wrong.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

100 million contract is for design assistance to BAE Systems it has nothing to do with radar engines or other subsystems

 

[NeilChapman]

100 million contract is for design assistance to BAE Systems it has nothing to do with radar engines or other subsystems

Wiki lists Turkey with ~250 F-16's and ~35 F-4's.

Turkey is planning to acquire 116 F-35's. Yet this link
http://m.haberturk.com/ekonomi/teknoloji/haber/1373433-7-milyar-dolara-250-ucak-alip-savas-teknolojisi-getirecegiz
states that they plan to build ~250 TFX to replace their F-16's.

That sounds to me like they are planning for either an incredible increase in Air Force capability or they're planning for the F-35 program to go away.

What gives?

 

[TomS]

I'm thinking that TFX also replaces the 30-odd T-38 trainers and 16 F-5 aerobatic team aircraft in the inventory. It might also backfill the RF-4 force that was retired a year or two back without immediate replacement. Also, the 250 total for TFX would include developmental aircraft that weren't needed for the F-16 and F-35 purchases.

 

[NeilChapman]

I'm thinking that TFX also replaces the 30-odd T-38 trainers and 16 F-5 aerobatic team aircraft in the inventory. It might also backfill the RF-4 force that was retired a year or two back without immediate replacement. Also, the 250 total for TFX would include developmental aircraft that weren't needed for the F-16 and F-35 purchases.

Ahhh...Thanks T

 

[r16]

it's BS meant to buy allies . Allows bragging in the political field , also boosts the standing of the Goverment in London . How this happens is rather hard to explain , being almost on par with the existance of UFOs . F-35 will not go anywhere , but they will have a canard to hang onto if Washington punishes them for being "Muslims" and stops deliveries , with new occupier of the White House merely warming up . The arrest of the prospective first female commander of the aerial branch for alleged coup links , coming kinda right after a Norwegian female takes over hers must be a sign that there will be no one left to fly them anyhow . So if Qatar can buy 72 F-15s , we can always claim we will buy 250 ...

is saying Death to F-35 allowed here ?

 

[CiTrus90]

I'm thinking that TFX also replaces the 30-odd T-38 trainers and 16 F-5 aerobatic team aircraft in the inventory.

Weren't those going to be replaced by the new trainer TAI is currently working on?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13751.msg296069.html#msg296069

250 doesn't seem much realistic as an estimate, unless they either plan to export them or abandon the F-35.

 

[TomS]

Hmm. Good point. I forgot they had a trainer program as well (or somehow crossed it up in my head with TFX). In that case, yes, the 250 number seems really optimistic and/or dependent on exports. But I can't imagine who the export candidates might be.

 

[NeilChapman]

Hmm. Good point. I forgot they had a trainer program as well (or somehow crossed it up in my head with TFX). In that case, yes, the 250 number seems really optimistic and/or dependent on exports. But I can't imagine who the export candidates might be.

Pakistan was mentioned.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16893/Pakistan_To_Participate_In_Turkey___s_TFX_Next_Gen_Fighter_Aircraft_Program#.WJLwnBiZOHo

 

[datafuser]

100 million contract is for design assistance to BAE Systems it has nothing to do with radar engines or other subsystems

If it costs 200,000 GBP per year to have one BAE engineer working at TAI site in Turkey, 100 million GBP will keep 50 BAE engineers in Turkey for 10 years.

 

[totoro]

Engineers are there to implement tech/procedures that have been greenlit for sharing with Turkey. How much does such tech transfer cost?

 

[r16]

after buying the İngiliz , they have finally managed to give two speeches against the Muslim Ban in the US . See , right there .

 

[Hood]

It's another British government move to make money and keep BAE Systems' aeronautical engineers busy until the Anglo-French UCAV programme ramps up. This is just the pre-study phase and it seems from what Flightglobal's article that they are still trying to narrow design selections from at least configurations.

I very much doubt that Turkey will be able to go it alone for the rest of the development programme without assistance from BAE or another company. 250 sounds a nice neat round number for a PowerPoint presentation, but I guess Turkey has to aim for big enough production run to get some financial viability. I'd be surprised if any European nation has the industrial resources or money to build 250 fifth-generation fighters (whatever that term means in reality), let alone Turkey.

Beyond the hyperbole this might not amount to much more than a Eurofighter with some modern avionics and a stylish stealthier-looking shape, or a single-engine version of same.

 

[mrmalaya]

A Eurofighter repackaged into an LO airframe is not to be sniffed at though.

As you say, this keeps BAE in the LO way until FCAS bears fruit and/or the Typhoon replacement needs some serious looking at.

 

[datafuser]

Engineers are there to implement tech/procedures that have been greenlit for sharing with Turkey. How much does such tech transfer cost?

Depend on what technologies are to be transferred.

Are they software tools for modeling and analysis such as INTAVAL? Test data? Technical reports?

BAE may sell software tools at right prices, but selling test data accumulated over decades is unlikely, I guess.

 

[Hood]

An interesting article on what TF-X means to BAE Systems and the UK's aviation sector more widely.
Contains some nice images of the three concepts too and features Replica and other BAE work.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/turkey-s-tf-x-fighter-throws-a-lifeline-to-uk-military-aerospace/

 

[mrmalaya]

Fantastic article Hood. The new image of Replica has made my day!

 

[red admiral]

An interesting article on what TF-X means to BAE Systems and the UK's aviation sector more widely.
Contains some nice images of the three concepts too and features Replica and other BAE work.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/turkey-s-tf-x-fighter-throws-a-lifeline-to-uk-military-aerospace/

A lot of sensible points in there. The TF-X support deal is definitely useful (especially for some niche areas) but is pretty small compared to the UK/FR UCAS demonstrators. We'll see how keen Turkey are when the proper major development costs kick in.

Nowhere does it mention that BAES' position in this area is mostly a result of MoD funding research...

 

[r16]

mostly in pulling wool over the eyes , a phrase a picked up from some James Clavell novel , ı think . They have this hedge fund thing that will grow to 200 billion US dollars , despite transferring the best State Corporations in they have just about 10 ready . Anybody planning to make a living out of this project will starve . Just do not get me to say it will be well deserved .

 

[Mat Parry]

Perhaps this explains the reappearance of replica in 2014?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1202.msg213302.html#msg213302

Video of full-scale Replica model being moved at BAE Warton on 2/18/2014.

http://youtu.be/Hg4YbsBq0kE

 

[mrmalaya]

That is a good point. Perhaps it's fair too say that BAE have been active in LO development for some time, and TF-X taps into/supports this?

We will have some idea if the end product begins to look like something other than a F22/35 clone.

 

[r16]

oh-kay , the things one hears these days ... Like the bright future that lays ahead . Right of the bat , the Freedom Trainer . Back in the day , when America decided to save us from the Communist menace , they first motioned to equip the lot here with Mustangs , alongside Spits and Mosquitos which were in service already , being known identities . Decided against and sent a winning team of Thunderbolts and Invaders . Whether this was extremely hostile or of good intentions can be debated , considering the USAAF's experience with German Light Flak , for hours . (*) Ike's insistence on nukes and everybody-should-lend-a-hand approach meant F-100s , you know , brand new . Which hurt the sensibilities of so many people that Freedom Fighter became what it was , no doubt helped by the unreasonable opposition of the Greeks to the G-91 , which could hardly reach Ankara to bomb it . And Ankara's ... on the basis of if Greeks didn't want free stuff , it ought to be really bad .

what happened to Freedom Tiger (which is apparently some website in the 21st Century) ı have been on it just within a month or so ; we got Fighting Falcons instead . Being banned from places , but able to peruse as a guest , ı wasn't able to respond to the threads about the subject on how the Code One Magazine clearly indicates how Lockheed was doing fabolously with a Blackbird "fighter" until they learned the ATF was "really" meant to be a 50 000 pounds plane and their 80 000 pounder was no go . Even as a silver bullet , when Stealth was to be of few airframes of many types , each for a different task , it wasn't that great an advance between 1960s and 80s . And then it fell to USAF to priotize systems integration , so that Lockheed won with a design and top and side views didn't match . Northrop would fall to the same trap of making a plane that could fly , just like GD and Boeing did and see the demands had been changed , right after they finished . And just like Tiger , they had the B-2 programme . Which would be slashed from 200 to 20 as soon as practicable . Code One has it . Or , considering a bit , maybe it doesn't ...

so , we are to have a poor man's F-22 , of a variation that rightly or wrongly lost to YF-22 almost 30 years ago . This is a bragging point , that poor man aspect . Meanwhile , thinking of "success" and export to Pakistan , the Indians are lobbying London to take as much as possible and make it inferior to Tejas . Ah , it will have an IRST !

what's cooking now ? We weren't allowed to have an attack helicopter programme until it became clear the majority of attack helicopter pilots could be Congregation moles , ready to betray the country in a moment's notice . Our Freedom Trainer apparently is not designed to carry armament ; clear wisdom as it makes it cheaper and the success or otherwise of the the L-39 in stopping "insurgents" can not be repeated when the insurgents have Stinger armed Direct Action Teams as advisors ? The programme is surely the reason why the CEO of the so called Turkish Airlines left , to the surprise of many and took the job at the so called TAI , co-located at the traitors' airbase ... The mighty great TF-X , will it manage to blow up on the tarmac on its own ? Or is it just a different kind of highway robbery ? The British Chief of Staff in Ankara on Friday and what spinelessness from him ; apparently failing to issue some joint threats ...


(*) because , ı know it has been . Jack Broughton is no longer with us to clarify whether he really saw the A-10 on the drawing boards of Republic , in 1958 by the latest . Designed as a napalm carrier and optimized for see 'em burn . ı think the M-61 was still called the T-151 when it first began . To replace the A-26 . Why would Republic want to replace the Skyraider ? Still it would be dominating the entire Turkey from one or two occupied airbases with its twin saddle turboprops . And yeah , its Luft 46 origins lie in the He-219 with saddle jets . And yeah , it didn't survive McNamara , who considered it too much plane for the cheap COIN campaigns to fight and got Broncos instead . How sad the joke it takes too much to foxtrot with the Turks can no longer make people wet themselves with laughter .

 

[r16]

while risking banishment once again and certainly nobody would ever feel like needing it -let alone heeding the warning , let's say those who keep ignoring "history" are bound to end up worse than repeating mistakes . We have a decade of hearing how everybody that came before in Turkey was a coward and a traitor and miracles can be achieved by mere willpower . Nobody has willed against the miracles and where are they ? To explain what that means would take me a thousand posts over a year here and ı really don't think that would ever happen ; but ı know people by gossip and reputation . When ı posted almost a decade back that a tactical aviation trainwreck might happen in 2015 , Pentagon did not order the Lockmart troll brigade stop calling me an ignorant fool only because they had calculated it and leaked themselves anyhow . ı don't somehow think the rip-off to take place will now cease , because ı just have said something on the web . And surely the troll brigade will come back earnestly after the new Administration in Washington "fulfills" its election pledges about cost-cutting ; it even hurts eyes when searching for their wisdom on Key Forums lately . Amazing the silence is ; incredible is the lack of gloating by the F-35 haters , those idiots who would see their lies and fantasies crushed under a mountain of facts and still come for more on the morrow .

so , the well established UK Aviation scene wants Turkish money and will take it no matter what ... So , even English language articles now appear this is how an existential matter ... Maybe , a further annoying and pointless bit of history ? ı have bought a new external HD and was moving some old saved files after finishing the draft of the one above when ı noticed this .

first things first ... The thread starter , does not support what ı am about to rant about . He only stresses things which are interesting or -shall we say - unbelievable ... And am merely picking what suits me , we are not in collusion in anything about anything ... Nor it might be all true ; people are merely talking in some informal way , they don't have tons of technical papers and "minders" of engineers with them ; they could equally be discussing the latest football / soccer game .

"The small NATO fighter which has been proposed to me, the F–91, is just like the Australian boomerang. It is never out of sight. It won’t go far enough." is clear enough , let me spare you of how F-91 lost to be the MAP plane , without rockets and afterburners and fancy wing moving in view of the complexities of the F-100 . And the awesome "Of course, you run into the question, then, as to the control of the air. It would be useless in an area when you are facing a MIG–17 or MIG–19, although obviously you aren’t going to have a big MIG–17 or MIG–19 everywhere you are going to need another airplane." ı think ı have seen pdf files that showed guns were indeed optional in the early life of the Freedom Fighter and 1958 is just about the time Sidewinders proved themselves . Are the Australians really desiring a "fighter" plane that can not face a Fresco ? At least Farmer makes sense as a supersonic plane ? Are they counting on there will be not enough MiGs in the air , as factories in the USSR are churning out zillions of them ? Surely not a reference to full spec Russkies ? For the readers' information these are the bloated figures in estimations that apparently once claimed Foxbats could escort bombers to Iceland from Poland , apparently in formation at Mach 2.0 cruise in and out ... Or how tightly it could outturn the Phantom at all heights and speeds .

this is the type of the "fighter" the Turkish Air Force of yesterdays might well have been equipped , to put down a Kemalist uprising , say around 1965 . Which has been discussed in Washington as far as am assured by guys who have been called "Dogs" and worse behind their backs and always reminded to their faces of what might have happened if Vietnam had not happened . Not much relevance to an aviation forum , but revolves around political disagreements in Turkey , leading to the introduction of Sharia , as per the demands of Democracy and hence bloodshed . Where the pro-American so democratic elements might not secure all the airbases , or will merely need a "bomb-minivan" to terraform mountains to dust and gravel . Skoshi Tiger proved the F-5 was ideal for dodging machine gun fire from the ground , but a bombtruck it ain't . Averted by the lack of appreciation at the grandeur of the Saudis at the time combined with Hanoi's plans for economic development that "risked" South and thus replaced with issues in Cyprus , where EOKA were equally ready to kill Turks , local or deployed from the "mainland" .

so cutting it short , ı find it insulting when it's Brits who come up with the 250 number , promising to replace the golden calf , the matchless Footpad aka F-35 before it violates the sacred soil of my country and reverse immediately that it was invented from the backside of the Turks who think they will buy that many . And then the poor man's aspect ... If you believe anyone , this country will be conquering Andromeda , the galaxy , by 2030 , what good an IRST will do for our exportable "F-22" ? What's this humility , what happened to Turkey Stronk !! ı think ı saw like 90% of all episodes of Madmen and can somewhat guess who are the target audience . Do not come unless it has Klingon cloaking and goes faster than light , if your manliness makes you misunderstand cease and desist .

 

[r16]

don't know how to delete own messages , but let's keep this one for reports of the "feedback" ...


"A Government which won its entire election campaign on the development of an indigenous fighter and development of the Turkish Aerospace sector. $44 billion has been allocated for this program." is a thing makes jaws drop , or not ... And it was online for all to see on February 13 , 2017 . Am about 45 myself and remember a few elections and not a single one where some Party declared it would create a fighter aircraft for the nation and there was an uproar and the nation loved the dare , the bravery , the heroism and voted for that Party .

oh-kay , let's remember the last two ... Both in 2015 . In the first , the seperatists' "Kurdish" party betrayed the Goverment . For those who don't know there's a Counter-revolution in my country aiming to destroy the last vestiges of the Republic established in 1923 . While its members are hazy to see , let's say the Goverment / Party , the Congregation that attempted to overthrow the Party in the Disgrace of July 15th and the seperatists have long accused of being partners . Up to 2010/11 - when the Arab Spring created new venues of "growth" , leading to a fall-out between the Party and the Congregation . The seperatists , sometimes fighting , sometimes playing along with both sides , made great strides during the dismantling of the Republic . Yeah , this is entirely on topic . For the seperatists felt they had bargained for far too little in the deals for the federation that would replace this country and refused to create the conditions for constitutional changes that would protect the political leadership from courts of 2020s , when people might have woken up to what had transpired . The party failed to win enough votes for Majority , they played for time while sabotaging talks for a coalition government . It's the Official position of the State that the Congregation then had two policemen murdered , to create a negative situation to hurt the Party .

in the name of "Peace" , a NATO army had surrendered whole towns to the seperatists . They were practically levelled to the ground while taken back . ISIL of course eagerly joined the troubles . In one particular case , the Police was warned that a political rally might be attacked ; and the Police did its best to protect its personnel from attack while the suicide bombers were totally unhindered in the attack . The dead , the wounded , the bewildered people trying to help and the police entering the square . The Leftists do not much like the Police , the protests immediately begun and the Police "naturally" used tear gas in the "usual" amounts . There are claims at least 3 people , lying wounded on the ground choked to death . The Leftists "naturally" feel that was intentional , far too many editorials have been written in newspapers debating whether the Prime Minister of the time really threatened Kurdish voters with Death Squads . The second elections led to a majority vote for the Party .

and maybe a word on those who might use this "Turkish" fighter in the decades to come . There was one weird case of the son-in-law of the then commander of air , himself an pilot officer and an attachee to NATO , was beaten by the Kuwaiti attache and other diplomats in Ankara . Out of anger at the Congregation's supposed delaying of a full invasion of Syria . The Arab "diplomats" though said , through discrete channels , that the son-in-law had taken them for perverts and the lot . Some old school people already have been mentioned around ; it appears their womenfolk , wives if young , daughters , granddaughters , have been listed for "distribution" . So , according to the claims , the son-in-law offers the Arabs any of them they might like , when the Congregation is done destroying the country and so having made them all widows and the like . No , we are really on topic . The reputation of those old guys , being bad when necessary , is far too much it seems . Then comes the Disgrace of July 15th , and the son-in-law is commanding the coup's air strikes . Rumours have been released that the second wave of the F-16s could not take off when it was heard which civilian houses would be now "accidentally" hit . Unclear whether the US Embassy directly intervened after wild rumours of commandos massing around Incirlik to "accidentally" secure the nukes , whether ground crews discovered this was a Congregation plot to overthrow their enemies and not a real coup of the Army or whether the systems were hacked , through software backdoors which had been installed by the Americans before delivery . As said rumours . The son-in-law got beaten again , and thus paraded on TV . Not to win hearts and minds some old retirees , but the guy had noticed they had done much damage to the Parliament but nothing had happened to the Palace and had the last bomb there , out of the gardens ...


this is the basis the PR campaign of the UK aerospace industry is starving and needs the work . ı am happy it was averted , that how mothers can't buy milk for their babies in the UK . Such things lead to trouble , a previous belief in unbroken success has led to hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians . Trust no one , trust nothing ; but trust me on this . If it's Black today , tomorrow it will surely be White . At least the country will get a new Space Agency , if that's what it takes , declared by Monday night ... And some heroic pictures from the battles in Syria , in which an unit that suffered in the conspiracies of yesterdays is pictured with a joke "in" French , as if to prove there are still French "owned" parts of the now extinct Turkish Armed Forces and Anglosaxons do not dominate all . And if they had 44 billions , it would be already distributed in contracts to the companies that support the Party ... It's no accident the talks in the Gulf are about scrapping a couple of billions of dollars to suit the new American Administration's wishes that America will not pay for "crusades" but will help for the proper amount of money .

 

[stimpy75]

Now this the right tread!

 

[FighterJock]

Now this the right tread!

A highly interesting image stimpy75. B)

 

[Deino]

Now this the right tread!

A highly interesting image stimpy75. B)

Interesting YES, but if You look at the comments at certain forums the same guys who hail this concept as an indigenous, true fifth generation type claim nearly in the same sentence the FC-31 a F-35/-22-clone !

 

[r16]

oh yeah , the Key forums ... The company account is at it again : "Oh believe me the TF-X will fly. President Erdogan's Presidency depends on this single project."

which is a slight variation of "A Government which won its entire election campaign on the development of an indigenous fighter and development of the Turkish Aerospace sector. $44 billion has been allocated for this program." is a thing makes jaws drop , or not ... And it was online for all to see on February 13 , 2017 . Am about 45 myself and remember a few elections and not a single one where some Party declared it would create a fighter aircraft for the nation and there was an uproar and the nation loved the dare , the bravery , the heroism and voted for that Party right above . Am kinda world famous for the idiotic stuff ı suddenly rain down on unsuspecting people on forums . Yes , there is a continuation of the stuff but posted elsewhere . Where am respected somewhat for once-a-year actual contribution to history and the like . If posted here it would either be mass murder , with brains exploding right in front of computers with people like totally unable to cope , or rather more likely ı would be banned for good .

presidency surely does not depend on a this single project ... By now every single aviation company knows this New Turkey is a braggart that talks too much and has even failed to bury a couple of extremely noisy folks that were truly hated back in the day , you know , for being Turks who could use a slide rule , cheap cheats , whatever negative connotation you could ever make . Nobody ever laughs at the "slight possibility" of PZL-230 or whatever appearing in Turkish colours ; because all those companies went to their respective goverments and cried foul ; they alone were to steal anything from the East Bloc as things were going down . Ah yes , Presidency does not depend on this single project . Considering even the referandum did nothing to the same . Because CHP would simply rock the hell out of the Party , by simply refusing to accept the official results , there is now this widespread trouble inside the Main Opposition that will be used by the A-K-P to claim the results have been accepted . By this politician who seemingly worked hard ; you can never call him a traitor if he has hundreds of speeches , right ? Even this promising female politician resigns from her post ; because her mother is a Christian as far as reports go . She might have created some sympathy in the EU as a geographical entity , against the designs of the EU as a political entity . EU desperately wants to see a "moderate Islam" success story , they have no need of "toleration" in any other sections . And let's just not forget the Customs Union deal to be re-negotiated . Which will turn out to be a yet another highway robbery ; with EU officials doing nothing against a Goverment that calls them names everyday , from "children" to Nazis . EU seriously threatens to forget the "moderate" part , reminds of how Turkey will become a Dictatorship if they do not intervene , and this keeps going on despite the attittude of sexual act Europe from the people they threaten . The EU does really welcome continued contacts with New Turkey ...

so , when the aviation companies have their doubts they are offered unbelievable tales that makes heads explode ; that giving away a quarter of the country to the Kurds is OK , destroying all the work of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is acceptable , bringing over Qataris to rule over the land is delightful because you see , Turkey will achieve its long standing goal of a "National Combat Aircraft" ... Concubines will be made out of those old fools' wives and daughters and granddaughters and they will fail to see because their 40 , 50 years of dreams and the lot will be realised . This is what the company yet to be named Qatari Areospace offers to the world , so that it can be given something to build . Because Qataris and all the Gulf Arabs feel they will have to fight Iran one of these days and their new subjects might be more useful if . If ...

and what's this thing Qatari Aerospace is given to build ; because Brits are like totally heroic ? A thing people over Key forums laugh their heads off as a copy of some Chinese plane . Then going on further suggesting that the Qatari FX will be a decade late and double the price of J-31 , hence satisfiying their urge to laugh at the gullible Turk ... O , eminent people of the Secret Projects , what have you done to LowObservable ? Who was like the first to notice the likeness of the Chinese to the JSF as imagined by 1995 or so ? Ah yes , the QFX is a lot more than all the trolls over Key Forums have ever achieved ; it's the thing that killed McDonnell Douglas . Quickly and cheaply leveraged from the F-22 and using the radar and the engines of the Subpar Hornet . Making it impossible for the USN to keep buying F-18s after 2005 . 60 to 80% of Raptor's potential , so it makes one dash to engage in some given scenario , compared to F-22's two . Hence no need to keep spending money on the F-18 , you know with its canted pylons , which helps to make it even slower , hence a lesser thread to F-35C . What does the QFX change ? The engines , to begin with ... Because that particular British Parliamentary Commission simply declared they were ready to sell to a dictatorship , if it came to that ...

this being a forum with expertise , ı expect no lack of scoffing at the idea that McDD had terrible trouble with the F-135 and could not fit it in any way . Which happened because USAF was still smarting from the disasters of the 1970s . When Pratt Whitney was given the monopoly and PW responded accordingly ; you know One Engine to rule over all , but then ı ain't no Tolkien to make justice to it . Assured the VTOL version was indeed the bane of all , McDD really went out fo the box , thinking '35B could never happen as "promised" and the Marines would get a different plane and who was Boeing anyhow , when it came to jumpjets ? Considering F-22 Lite was unbeatable (for USAF) ... Which brings us to the most incredible question of all ... Where are the Lockmart trolls ? Those who challenged any assertion that America could not dare fighting the Turks , without F-35 in Turkish service ? The New Turkey is stealing the always glorious formula that only Lockmart could do as befits its godlike status and not a single press release ? Oh you know , they are selling us the JSF again , just for the laughs of it .

only the Koreans are unhappy . They love New Turkey so much . Did the 3rd bridge over the Bosphorus and their guaranteed earnings are reportedly eating all the money the state gets from all the highways in Turkey . They would love to sell the KFX to anyone but the "West" has decreed the downfall of the Turkish Republic is to be celebrated by the presence of the QFX ; so the Korean company account over Key forums implies they have Plasma . Because am basically a decent guy , ı will avoid ridiculous untrue statements that everything they know about Plasma was written by r16 , in the similar sense my being a space faring turbolazer expert . In case your brain explodes right now . ı trust the Qatari Aerospace account to declare today that 'No, we have better Plasma, acquired yesterday from Putin who had to part with it as Turkey still can not sell tomatoes to Russia' ...

and it's even on the picture , with no insignia on but a depiction of the flag . Just like 2023 has been stamped over anything as a promise to have completed the destruction of the secular Republic that was unjustly established in 1923 , there's a clip that runs on one TV channel . The National Anthem , with its music changed into "Turkish Art" format from the Western basis it has had for the last century , with the label "To 2071" written on the screen , which basically offers there won't be a single Turk in Anatolia left by then . Strange , but Westerners really love such claims . Hence , the insignia is sure to be changed , like the flag as soon as practicable ... And mind you , there's no need to waste money on them anyhow . When the Disgrace of July 15th happened (and we all have heard or read about the recordings) those F-16 fliers are told that the PM might be shot down if necessary . And his plane is not the Gulfstream TC-this or the Airbus TC-that but a "very big" one . Have no doubts that more of those idiots are still around , so the Qataris should go and invest on UCAVs instead of getting a "National" aircraft for their people . Just watched Stealth on TV again , you know Biel being the best thing , followed by the tanker zepp as a distant second . Surely the Qataris can rob this country to the same efficiency with the very best UCAV in the world designed by the Qatari Aerospace in Ankara , with the son-in-law of the PM put in charge ? He would know it better than insuniating the the PM or the Party are willing to answer to anybody despite the decades they spent to prove that they don't ; people have gone to jail for less .


edit for 10th of May , now that consecutive posts are bad for health . Is there a spoiler box option here ?

probably entirely irrelevant for the purists who would like to hear stuff about the wingload per square feet or what the producer of the chips to be used ate for lunch the day before but here is what some guy has written a year and a half ago . The point being he is the kind of people Theresa May has as allies in the war to sell planes to the Turks .You see , this is divine intervention or something as ı was washing a spoon and needed something to wipe excess water off and saw this piece of paper just about to be discarded ... Placed on the back of the calendar page for May 1st , when the godless Communists celebrate their godless May Day . Helps politics by attacking the Russian friends of the godless .

the actual venue being the heroic days after the Russian Su-24 was shot down and pilot killed in the air by rifle fire . There are traitors who say this is a bad thing and Russians will take revenge . The heroic newspaper editorial harps on how such people have never shed a single tear for those who were bombed by the Russians . Those citizens of this country who were fighting over there despite the assurances that they were not . Even those Turkomans who were citizens of Syria and technically in rebellion or something are labelled as Turks , a whole 2.5 millions of them . They are fighting only because 400 daughters of theirs were raped by the Regime and their resistance began with just two hunting rifles . Oh , the Russians deserved to die because they were there not to take a selfie . Neither they were dropping steaks to those who were having a picnic down there . There's even the inevitable anti-Congregation reference that evilly tried to stop weapon deliveries to the Turkomans in a bid to weaken the Party . This at a time Ankara was totally denying any kind of weapon deliveries to Syria . Oh yeah , those who cry for the Russian pilot are those who live in luxury in the most luxurious neighbourhood of Istanbul , naturally with crystal glasses of alcohol at their hands . We even hear there have been traitorous journalists who openly wrote or at least were sorry that the Brits lost in 1915 because the victors would surely improve the breed of the country , you know , after having the run of the women after victory . How they dared to say this while Germans had the run of everything ı really don't know . Or , perhaps it's a scheme to import British guys for the peace years as well . Really can not say this was not put forward , with what now happens with the Qataris in mind . And of course mentioning this here will certainly make it impossible to find one single article of the same author that lauds the import of the Brits to make the QFX . With his tone , ı have no doubts he now would cry for the Russian pilot who was unjustly shot down by a Congregation pilot , because relations with Putin's Russia prolong the hold of the Party on Power .

as ı write these nonsense at home , ı really lack an appreciation of what the company account says . Turns out they have put a Brit in charge and his Turkish deputy has experience of NASA . He is unnamed , ı think , because of the 10% chance that he had a photo with the spritual leader of the Congregation . You can't tell the purity of people in this New Turkey , even of those who were opressed by the Congregation before they lost power to the Party . Newspapers assure us of the inevitable victory as 5500 people are already working on it , 2000 of them engineers . See , the resemblance to the J-31 and all that jazz ; they have to make it to October 29th of 2023 . You know , to show how great they are . No doubt the Chinese will clear any snags by then . ı think they are talking of 2030 as the Service date , making it 35 from 1995 .

sour ? You bet . The initial "lie" was that it would be something like a Mach 2.6 J-20 . Hence , a configuration that rightly or wrongly lost to F-22 , in America . You know , back in the days some stupid guy by the name of r16 was saying it was also guaranteed to the Americans that it would fail to outdo an F-16 in close in combat . This is a serious requirement foremost achieved by the F-35 afterall ... As soon as this Clarkson arrives and lays his eyes on them papers or CGI or whatever the hell , speed comes down to realistic numbers . If America can not hot composites , who is Turkey , right ? Also benefits India , as expected . Nobody fears the New Turkey when it comes to fighting , but there is a nagging doubt that some unforeseen accident can happen and all those smarties who are the smartest in the entire world might get replaced . People with different set of priorities . You know it truly scares the Islamists , if you believe journalists . Despite the obvious fact that those naysayers are all people who left behind in the race to be lackeys of the PM ...

will it happen ? Of course , no . ı have never believed the GNP per capita is on the order of 11 000 USD , making it 800 odd billion dollars , so ı was not surprised to see it's actually 1.6 trillions according to the company account . That's also why ı have no doubts of the claims of cheap labour when people are paid one and a half times of what they might earn in the US . But then am an idiot and will regret these outrageous lies of mine when the QFX is also proven to be carrier capable . Turns out they are building two , one for to scare Iran by basing in Qatar and second in Somali to keep the Yemenis starving . Oh , the things ı have missed by not reading Key Forums in its entirity .

 

[r16]

well , sorry for being so lonely on my own but it seems true ...

yay , ı have been referenced over Key Forums . Firstly am not Secret Projects Forum and actually have been banned here for quite a while . Especially when Lockmart , well anyhow ... One thing for the Drumpf , people have just stopped trolling people for a fight .

second the people that one would agree to be company accounts work with a feeling that they deserve to run the world and British Intelligence seems to be OK with the hacking of Key Forums . ı have no idea what was on the PAK-FA thread but let me repeat what a test pilot supposedly said . So so with accompaniying hand gestures .

 

[mrmalaya]

You know, the thing is I have become interested in the T-FX because of the UK links. But I don't know what you are saying and this persistent muttering about Key Forum doesn't make any sense either- what conspiracies abound in a forum full of enthusiasts rather than professionals?

You think the Russians hacked Key Forum because of something said about their fighter? Really? Nothing has been said about the Pak-Fa there for a while, because nothing has happened worth talking about.

You might do better to use less words, and then it would be easier to understand what you are talking about. That way, you might get some response to your very long posts that are hard to follow, much less discuss.

At this stage, the single most interesting thing about T-FX is that the UK think it has enough sticking power to get involved in it. That in itself says something about what they are being told by the Erdogan government.

 

[r16]

ı don't know , like London knowing the hacking took place from Ankara and the like but it fits within the general narrative of turning the other cheek because you know the contract is merely a start for the post Brexit UK . Just like they are talking Kurds are no good ? To take Rakka . Especially when the US is visibly propping up an hostile state . And Key Forums would be better served if you didn't make me say that , right ?

 

[mrmalaya]

...but nothing to do with T-FX then?

 

[stimpy75]

models from IDEF
and frames from a video

 

[r16]

ah , back to the days . When my ranting seems too understandable for a major aircraft company . Please do not refrain to delete post 64 as well , now that it's far too clear .

oh well , odd this one still stands . So did ı delete my own post while doing something ? You know ı have it saved . In the unilke case of interest ı can always post it again ...

 

[r16]

ı had this interesting experience today . If the site software has a log , it will be seen that ı posted this almost pointless post but it somehow disappeared . ı have been seriously infracted on this site , even today's A4FN thread shows moderators declare what are they removing in Red Font . This might be pointless , offensive to people but am sure it deserves at least a notification that it is not acceptable . ı don't think ı deleted it myself afterall ; what would be the point of writing it in the first place ? Especially when there are countries that spend 2 billions US dollars a year on a VIP fleet ? At least it will serve to the aviation community that there will be no more posts of it looks like a Chinese copy and people should lend a hand if they don't like it ...


obviously ı know nothing about planes . My first post here was a request for my membership at a modelling site accepted ; r16 suspiciously sounding like a spambot for any sensible automatic filter and many members here also active over there . Didn't achieve much either , though possibly there will be one or two to remember what ı had done to an X-Wing . And the Armoured Russian P-47 idea . When ı was banned it alone survived while almost every post of mine was deleted . And it kept surviving despite my "request" here in SPF that it should too begone . Which makes me almost entirely irrelevant in any serious discussion , right ? Especially when it's about something so shameful that the British Goverment avoids mentioning it until the elections are safely won . That's according to the company account at the Key Forums . Amazing isn't it , with the British Goverment set to win massively according to the polls last mentioned in Turkey ?

so , it surely isn't me . When the company account say the picture is the one and quickly replaces it with yet another , with the hint that 6 different designs are still being investigated . Logistics being what they are , the visuals of the Replica were no doubt were chosen like 2 months ago and yet the joy it brings ! Despite it's merely meant as proof of British research into radar returns . It even raises the counter attack that it lacks radar volume . r16 to the rescue ; ı can always fix the newest SN-2 , HiperOmega Band , range of eight thousand miles guaranteed against a RCS figure of .001 percent of a Sparrow's dropping . Senior Senile being the code name , because ı can .

cutting the fun short , post 64 is answer enough . ı have never had any particular desire to be mentioned anywhere and the world has been going around the sun before ı was born and will no doubt keep doing so after am no more ; but you see certain people out there expect a basic decency from me . Like it was allowed to stay here in the thread does not mean so and so works where ever and this is confirmed by this "forum" . It's a r16 thing and am yet to see anyone also accepting that ı keep a 1701 , a certain Warp capable ship you might have seen on TV , behind the Moon for joyriding .

though one also has to rant a bit , vent some steam . Take that other regular Turkish poster at the Key Forums . Even given to Turkey Stronk!! in times of crisis and let me say it first that ı do not have any sympathy for anyone who talks positively about F-35 ... And have you seen him after the spat he had with the company account over whether the Spanish amphibious ship design was a Turkish carrier or not ? ı think he is some sort of a student and do you really think he can find a job ? After better performance on some anynomous web forum and winning the thread ? See , online victories matter to New Turkey , the one that's set to conquer the world and the Universe after the last remnants of the Old are dealt with . It's not even a decade when every single TV presenter in this country was warned that the name of the Party is "Clean" and everybody fell in line after a few were sacked for spelling it as A-K-P . Alternative presentations of the truth or whatever Conway of the White House called them are the truth in Turkey , getting away with the most outrageous without a scratch teaches people to obey . When the company account tells you any single company of the gloriously victorious New Turkey is an industry giant , you gotta believe him ...

now that they are also answering to higher ups who love to believe that they are the greatest ever . To grace this world with their presence ...

readily forgetting that America built them , protected them and brought to power with the express aim of redrawing the maps of the Middle East . They were supposed to do this with Democracy , peace in the Southeast ; mothers would no longer cry . Now you are hearing this New Turkey was silently labouring on all those matchless weapons , did you see our newest lazer gun ? An explosion of designs , all matchless , just as America creates an extension of the Kurdish reach , barely held from gaining an outlet to the Med and hence pipelines by the Russian intervention . The New Turkey wanted to go to war with Russia , to stop that intervention , believing they are to rule an Arab Empire . Because they are awesomely courageous ı have no doubts all the dying and killing would be done by anyone but them . They now want to fight with Iran now that they won't be doing the dying / killing part . So , these weapons meant for the fight ? Of course not . Take BMC , that licencee of British brand of trucks . Which had the mine resistant personnel carrier contract and lacked even a smile from the Goverment . As troops were blown upto bits by seperatist mines ... A financial crisis for the company , no payments for no trucks have been delivered yet trucks can not be delivered without the money . So they sell , naturally cheap , to this owner of a TV Channel , a Party loudmouth , too . Trucks are now delivered faster than the Lightning , as long as profits keep going into the proper pockets . The Goverment pays a pal from taxpayer money , how very interesting ... Listening to their bombast , you would think they were using their own bank accounts .

attack helicopters have been deadly to the seperatists and it's a long running rant of mine as AH-1W was supposed to be rushed into service in proper numbers , like delayed 5 years by 2000 when they further delayed it with choosing Zulu and then later killed that with the claims that Americans were not properly helpful . Chose Mangusta instead and if this leads to confusion , well the Party is not alone in robbing the country , right ? Spectacular , ain't it , claiming they have made so many helicopters while that Italian (?) who asked the question might well be wrapping Agusta parts in plastic before shipment to Turkey as his day job ? No , sir ... All the claims of awesome industrial progress is for achieving what Democracy failed to do . They are going to accept a Kurdish nation state , they will turn the other cheek to the territorial demands and all the stuff is to encourage the younger generation to kill and die to grab some land from others , namely the Shia ... So that all those people of New Turkey can enjoy their new found truth of being Arabs and whatever . Anything goes as long as it is not Turkish .

silly , stupid , impossible to understand . But also the 100% truth . At least 200 000 people , if not 500 000 , have died in Syria for such brilliance . You are entitled to think the shareholders anywhere are "sacrosanct" , but why should ı care for the British Aviation Industry ? Over my dead body is much overrated , but we will see , won't we ? And even amazing that despite it being "almost" British , SAAB had no doubts about what was being said . But no ? Just read in the newspaper : The technical chief of the so called Turkish airlines giving a speech to the professionals at the fair . What was it , IDEF ? Now ı don't think you ever heard of Nuri Demirağ , an industrialist who had an aircraft company and he had a prototype of sorts in the 1940s . Now , you gotta understand am a plane nut and just a bit of a Nationalist or something . So it warms my heart to read that some unnamed American expert was passing through Ankara back in '42 or '43 or '44 and he commented positively after the inspection . ı know this since the 1980s , when ı was this high school idiot who thought he would become an aircraft engineer and who knows , might even design . 30 years on ? The prototype becomes the best airliner of the time . It would beat DC-3 hands down , fly circles around DC-6 , would mock the Constellation ... But the traitors ruling the country stopped it from happening . So harshly that ı have never even seen a picture of this world wonder . The descendants of the traitors are still around , forming the Bürokratik Oligarşi . Who delay the onward march of the country citing laws and cry Corruption whenever some Party guy robs the country and distribute some scraps to the Party faithful and everybody is like happy . Their unworthiness proven by their refusal to be bribed ; which then leads to their marked as not being Turkish . This , when ı have never heard being a liar or a thief is the mark of a Turk . If they , the traitorous officials , were to be removed this country would do the best airliner in the world . No doubt seating 5900 and flies to Pluto in 9 hours . The chief of the so called Turkish airlines even promises the GNP growth will be 15% a year . ı don't doubt that at all , easily achievable with re-arranging the statistics . As if it doesn't happen every year .

oh-kay , then possibly you will recognize this ...

"prompted a lot of advanced criticism because [the company account] is suggesting that Turkey might be able to produce it's own UAVs, weapons and aircraft. "

well , nothing of the sort , right ? One person might be laughing at it , with not so favourable comparisions to the Chinese plane . One or two are aghast at the lack of "discipline" or converting every thread into Turkey Stronk!! with "flagrant" dismissal of the pleas . Of sticking to a central thread where all those brochures are not amiss at all , equally worthy of being posted as much as any other brochure there or here . The guy obviously speaks English well enough , which is some serious crime in the Turkey of the 21st Century but let's avoid that right now . Why doesn't he conform ? Soon , there will be no Turkey left , hence nobody can keep him responsible or even mock him for the "fact" the glorious numbers of production did not exactly pan out . Is it that ? Allowing threads to disappear in the back pages -never updated- as some idiots (even people in Turkey have no clue on) sheepishly accept the 15% growth to GNP each year , under the unbreakable rule of the A-K-P ? Now that the people who would remember me from the modelling site are few , even fewer could remember my random nonsense , almost always irrelevant to any topic ; just ask "Overscan" how many of posts of mine he has deleted over the years here . Or the single pathetic Microsoft Paint drawing - stupid backstory threads which ı would remove myself ? Strict refusal of mine to have one single spot as having the backstories match each other would become ever tougher over time and finally advised that there was no point in bothering anyhow , with permanent ban loomin' over the horizon ? But then the smarties of New Turkey are brilliant , they know the idiot of the Starfleet is tough to mimic . When everybody knows what can kind of heatload he calls an heatload when it comes to lazer guns ... ?

and yes , it's the QFX . Even the latest picture has it , the National plane , while everybody wants it to be the Turkish one ...