System 9-A-7660 Kinzhal - 9-S-7760 missile (Article 292) / AS-24 KILLJOY

[Forest Green]

Not counting this one?

I know of 3 others, with only actually hitting the target.

The one that hit the target.

And 2 that hit a farmhouse, that 40 years back was a Soviet milltary Parking lot.

I would only count a success as hitting a valid military target.

 

[paralay]

I know of 3 others, with only actually hitting the target

You have mastered Ukrainian mathematics, 14 Russian missiles were flying, we shot down 28 of them, 14 objects were hit The Ukrainian command counted 16 launches as of November last year

 

[lancer21]

I started laughing seeing a previous post. So the Kiev regime proudly reports "shooting down" a piece of concrete and a length of pipe? Must be Kiev Bob, long lost brother of Baghdad Bob.

 

[Deino]

Successful interception of Russian "hypersonic" Kh-47 "Kynzhal" missile by the Armed Forces of Ukraine around 02:40 on May 4 in the sky over Kyiv is claimed. As claimed, presumably by Patriot air defense system

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654412040826507264

View: https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1654412040826507264

Smells like BS. The picture of the "missile" looks like it's made of concrete (complete with vegetation) and taken so close you can't actually tell what you're looking at. The other is a steel pipe. Undamaged.

Well … at least the details look indeed more like the Kinzhal and less like like BS!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570121481677602816

View: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570121481677602816

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1656289377129988096

View: https://twitter.com/ronzheimer/status/1656289377129988096?s=20

 

[totoro]

So, if that fin is part of the Kinzhal that was downed - would it suggest that
A) Kinzhal does not detach its warhead section after the booster runs out?
B) That neither Kinzhal nor Iskander M for that matter detach its warhead from the booster in some mid trajectory phase
C) That the missiles ARE designed to usually detach the warhead but that, in this particular instance, the detachment did not happen - for whatever reason?

 

[Forest Green]

Okay, hope this puts the matter to rest. I'm convinced.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1656329624639647745

View: https://twitter.com/ronzheimer/status/1656329624639647745?s=20

https://twitter.com/x/status/1656424826993795072

View: https://twitter.com/Black__Shooter/status/1656424826993795072?s=20

Dagger Fallen – Assessing Ukraine’s Downing of the Kinzhal Missile

On 5 May 2023, Ukrainian local news outlet Defense Express announced that Ukraine’s defence forces managed to shoot down a Russian Kh-47M2 Kinzhal air-launched ballistic missile at around 02:40 on 4 May over Kyiv.

euro-sd.com

 

[paralay]

 

[Forest Green]

View attachment 699437

Note the welding seams between the holes and the fact the bottom of the nose tip is not full diameter like the bomb you posted. The bottom hole is also nearer the base than the bomb you posted, and the holes are further apart too.

The warhead measures exactly half the length of the section labelled as 3000mm, i.e. 1.5m. Vitali Klitschko is 2.01m and it is ~0.75x his height.

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/007033

The hole spacing also precisely matches the hole spacing on the Stavropol Kinzhal warhead below as does the sub-diameter nose tip, the welding seams between the holes and the hole spacing and distance of second hole to base. It looks like a duck, it quacks like duck, it's a duck.

 

[flateric]

So this is BetAB-500ShP and this is 250 mm distance between suspension lugs (last ones apparently being stolen by local souvenir collectors) with whole thing height being about 0,75 meters.

Okey

 

[sferrin]

Not a BETAB-500. This pic was trying to show that it was and ended up showing it wasn't. Note relative positions of lugs and welds.

 

[flateric]

Not a BETAB-500. This pic was trying to show that it was and ended up showing it wasn't. Note relative positions of lugs and welds.

So you wanna say that Klichko's shins are not ten inches long?

 

[sferrin]

Not a BETAB-500. This pic was trying to show that it was and ended up showing it wasn't. Note relative positions of lugs and welds.

So you wanna say that Klichko's shins are not ten inches long?

I DGAF what size his shins are. I'm looking at the photos of the two items and their features.

 

[Trident]

It was a tongue in cheek comment They guy is over 2m tall, and the "lug" spacing is about the same as the length of his shins - while they are known to be only 10in apart on the bomb. Does not compute.

 

[Forest Green]

So you wanna say that Klichko's shins are not ten inches long?

The entire warhead is ~1.5m long, so the distance between the holes is likely ~60cm ballpark without measuring.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Obviously, this is not a radio-transparent fairing. It can be a "penetrating warhead". But why is it empty?

The warhead would have been filled with some sort of chemical explosive. Most of those will happily *burn.* If there is a big hole, and there certainly seems to be, and the detonator does not go off with a proper supersonic shock, the explosive will simply burn off subsonically. With the hole allowing easily expulsion of gas, there'll be no rapid pressure rise and likely no deflagration to detonation. My dad used to use cubes of C4 to boil his coffee in Nam.

 

[Forest Green]

The warhead would have been filled with some sort of chemical explosive. Most of those will happily *burn.* If there is a big hole, and there certainly seems to be, and the detonator does not go off with a proper supersonic shock, the explosive will simply burn off subsonically. With the hole allowing easily expulsion of gas, there'll be no rapid pressure rise and likely no deflagration to detonation. My dad used to use cubes of C4 to boil his coffee in Nam.

I also doubt they'd have left a live unexploded 500kg warhead lying around for representatives and journalists to play with anyway.

 

[paralay]

BETAB

 

[Forest Green]

BETAB clearly doesn't match.

 

[totoro]

Does kinzhal discard the booster in flight? And are those rear steering fins ( shown in the ukrainian footage) among the parts from the downed kinzhal?

 

[seruriermarshal]

BETAB

 

[seruriermarshal]

There is a radar in front of the warhead.

 

[seruriermarshal]

 

[paralay]

There is a radar in front of the warhead.

Is there also a ball or is it just me?

 

[seruriermarshal]

There also black cable , so seems like a Power supply unit for Radar

 

[Forest Green]

Does kinzhal discard the booster in flight? And are those rear steering fins ( shown in the ukrainian footage) among the parts from the downed kinzhal?

If you're referring to this post:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/system-9-a-7660-kinzhal-9-s-7760-missile-article-292-as-24-killjoy.40307/post-596546

There are clearly parts of other missiles on display as well as Kinzhal, note the 'X-55' label.

View attachment 699515

I'd have said it's just this bit.

 

[totoro]

Does kinzhal discard the booster in flight? And are those rear steering fins ( shown in the ukrainian footage) among the parts from the downed kinzhal?

If you're referring to this post:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/system-9-a-7660-kinzhal-9-s-7760-missile-article-292-as-24-killjoy.40307/post-596546

There are clearly parts of other missiles on display as well as Kinzhal, note the 'X-55' label.

True but parts seem to be grouped and the x55 label parts start right of the fin part. Which seems to be grouped with kinzhal parts.
Also, if not part of kinzhal, what other russian missile has such a fin?

 

[paralay]

Also, if not part of kinzhal, what other russian missile has such a fin?

Iskander

 

[totoro]

Ok, so since iskander and kinzhal are related, and since the fin was grouped with kinzal labeled parts, its likely that fin is part of kinzhal.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster? And if they do, what do they use for steering of the terminal missile stage?

 

[sferrin]

Ok, so since iskander and kinzhal are related, and since the fin was grouped with kinzal labeled parts, its likely that fin is part of kinzhal.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster? And if they do, what do they use for steering of the terminal missile stage?

The only part that gets jettisoned is that that the aft set of fins are attached to:



0:03

 

[seruriermarshal]

Ok, so since iskander and kinzhal are related, and since the fin was grouped with kinzal labeled parts, its likely that fin is part of kinzhal.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster? And if they do, what do they use for steering of the terminal missile stage?

here a iskander warhead in Syria .

 

[totoro]

Ok, so since iskander and kinzhal are related, and since the fin was grouped with kinzal labeled parts, its likely that fin is part of kinzhal.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster? And if they do, what do they use for steering of the terminal missile stage?

The only part that gets jettisoned is that that the aft set of fins are attached to:

thing is, there are various texts on iskander which mention the warhead section separates and then maneuvers. So this is conflicting information and i'd like to find sources to settle the matter once and for all.
Unlike chinese missiles and pershing, i dont see a set of steering fins on iskander warhead section. So i don't really know how it steers.

 

[sferrin]

Ok, so since iskander and kinzhal are related, and since the fin was grouped with kinzal labeled parts, its likely that fin is part of kinzhal.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster? And if they do, what do they use for steering of the terminal missile stage?

The only part that gets jettisoned is that that the aft set of fins are attached to:

thing is, there are various texts on iskander which mention the warhead section separates and then maneuvers.

I've never seen that. I've seen pics of Iskander that show small RCS thrusters for orienting itself while in space, but nothing about the RV separating. Not sure I see the point of it.

 

[Trident]

I suspect the fact that the Kinzhal was allegedly targeting the Patriot site itself may have helped make the interception possible (no crossing velocity component). On Snake Island, Russian short-range air defences have been credited with knocking down Tochka TBMs - not a normal part of their diet either, but they would have necessarily been aiming within the immediate vicinity of the AD sites.

Next question is whether kinzhal (and iskander) jettison their booster?

Separating warheads are pretty unusual in relatively small missiles like this (precisely because of the additional cost and complexity of providing a second set of guidance and control systems). The maneuvering capability of Iskander and Kinzhal is well attested of course, but I've never heard a credible claim of a separating warhead. Perhaps an inaccurately translated description of a submunition dispenser payload (see below)?

here a iskander warhead in Syria .

That's a submunition dispenser variant though.

 

[sferrin]

Even PAC-2 is nothing to sneeze at:

 

[paralay]

 

[totoro]

Separating warheads are pretty unusual in relatively small missiles like this (precisely because of the additional cost and complexity of providing a second set of guidance and control systems). The maneuvering capability of Iskander and Kinzhal is well attested of course, but I've never heard a credible claim of a separating warhead.

Chinese df11 has a separate warhead. And that's in the same ballpark as iskander, size wise.

I do find it peculiar that iskander designers went with a unibody. Sure it simplifies everyhing. But it possibly results in a slower and less maneuverable warhead on reenrty. While presenting a bigger target to enemy air defenses.

 

[Trident]

Yup, such examples exist all right, but it's very much the exception rather than the rule until you get to bigger, longer-range missiles. At some point it (& staged propulsion for efficiency) becomes a necessity even without terminal guidance because otherwise you'd have to provide the entire missile with a heavy thermal protection system for the high reentry speeds.

Even PAC-2 is nothing to sneeze at:

Sure, but with additional velocity from supersonic air-launch and its sophisticated (by TBM standards) decoys, Kinzhal is probably a tall order for PAC-2 nominally. Consider how relatively limited the defended footprint is for ballistic targets even with the purpose-designed PAC-3.

The shoot-down does kind of neatly expose the hype around some subsets of the ridiculously loose category of "hypersonics" - many of which (including Kinzhal) are merely quite conventional (quasi-)ballistic missiles. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't mainly conceived as a way of getting a >500km BM without violating INF, or as a more modern, solid propellant alternative to the Kh-22M.

If this had been a DF-17 HGV or a Tsirkon missile, the intercept would have been more newsworthy. And even then, nobody claimed invincibility for these weapons, rather than much improved survivability - it is after all demonstrably feasible to shoot-down a F-117 with a SA-6, under favourable circumstances

 

[BBCRF]

it's not Kinzhal 100%

 

[sferrin]

Separating warheads are pretty unusual in relatively small missiles like this (precisely because of the additional cost and complexity of providing a second set of guidance and control systems). The maneuvering capability of Iskander and Kinzhal is well attested of course, but I've never heard a credible claim of a separating warhead.

Chinese df11 has a separate warhead. And that's in the same ballpark as iskander, size wise.

I do find it peculiar that iskander designers went with a unibody. Sure it simplifies everyhing. But it possibly results in a slower and less maneuverable warhead on reenrty. While presenting a bigger target to enemy air defenses.

And has fins for guidance.