Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II [2012-current]

[flateric]

LMFS has resurfaced in MoD aquisition plans shown at public last April, so thanks, we will build something better than this boring cucumber.

 

[Avimimus]

Did you just call the J-31 (and by association, the F-35) a Cucumber? ;D

 

[flateric]

Hell! This is T-50 topic. Don't discuss J-31 here. Pwease.

 

[quellish]

Did you just call the J-31 (and by association, the F-35) a Cucumber? ;D

I do not see how saying something about the J-31 is by association saying something about the F-35.

PAK-FA has some really impressive attention to detail applied to it, which is a very interesting contrast to the J-20. For a number of reasons they are really not comparable.

 

[sferrin]

PAK-FA has some really impressive attention to detail applied to it, which is a very interesting contrast to the J-20.

Like what kind of things? I'd have thought it'd have been the other way around (for example, I don't see why all that bare metal on the engine nacelles of the T-50 wouldn't make a good radar reflector.)

 

[Triton]

"Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst"
February 1, 2014 Alexander Korablinov, RIR

Source:
http://indrus.in/economics/2014/02/01/criticism_of_fgfa_project_unfounded_-_russian_strategic_analyst_32725.html

Cuts in India’s defence spending and the cost escalations for buying and setting up licensed production of the French Rafale multirole fighters are the main reasons that certain Indian media outlets have waged campaign against the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighting Aircraft) Russian-Indian project, Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies told the Red Star military newspaper.

Makiyenko believes that the criticism of the FGFA project in the Business Standard is unfounded and aims to divert attention from the financial problems that the Indian Air Force will face if a contract to purchase Rafale jets is signed. At issue is the purchase of 126 obsolete machines, he told Red Star.

The Russian strategic analyst noted that under the current economic conditions, the French fighters cannot be purchased without cutting spending on other programs. “Going ahead with this project threatens to consume the whole budget for modernizing the Indian Air Force and will leave the country without any fifth-generation technologies,” Makiyenko said.

According to him, the accusation that ‘Russians have been reluctant to share design information’ is completely untrue. “Russia and India are working on the project together, and all information about it is available to Indian engineers and designers,” Makiyenko said.

The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Rafale price hike

India is expected to foot a much higher bill for the Rafale fighters. When French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation won the deal to supply its Rafale fighter jets, it quoted around $60 million per jet. According to a report on DNA, the cost has gone up to $120 million per jet. “The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion,” the paper quoted an Indian Air Force official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee, as saying.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

PAK-FA has some really impressive attention to detail applied to it, which is a very interesting contrast to the J-20.

Like what kind of things? I'd have thought it'd have been the other way around (for example, I don't see why all that bare metal on the engine nacelles of the T-50 wouldn't make a good radar reflector.)

refer to device #9

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15626.msg207759.html#msg207759

not installed yet, though

 

[flanker]

Like what kind of things? I'd have thought it'd have been the other way around (for example, I don't see why all that bare metal on the engine nacelles of the T-50 wouldn't make a good radar reflector.)

Well, T-50 is prototype remember. If deskmodels are any (doubtful) indication then engine nacelles will be covered by RAM/panels.

Saintkatanalegacy, device 9 is for the *inside* of the intakes (radar blocker) and has nothing to do with nacelles.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

Oh wait... misread sorry. :-[

this one "56"

temporary fittings reserved for 2nd engine me thinks

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

For the sake of discussion, what can we glean from this patent?

 

[flanker]

An important milestone today. T-50-2 being delivered to GLITs for acceptance trails.

 

[Triton]

"Russian Air Force Receives New Stealth Prototype"
Feb. 21, 2014

Source:
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140221/187752685/Russian-Air-Force-Receives-New-Stealth-Fighter-Prototype-.html

MOSCOW, February 21 (RIA Novosti) – A new advanced fighter jet prototype has been delivered to the Russian Air Force for testing, the manufacturer said Friday.

The first T-50 “stealth” fighter had been delivered to a military airfield in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region for test flights, the Sukhoi company said in a statement.

The chief air force commander, Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, said in December that combat squadrons could expect deliveries of the production version, known by its Russian acronym PAK-FA for future tactical fighter aircraft, in 2016 at the latest.

The PAK-FA is slated to replace the country’s aging fleet of Soviet-era fighter jets.

The Sukhoi T-50 is a fifth-generation fighter jet and features a stealth profile with internal weapons bays for air and ground-attack weapons, thrust-vectoring engines for high-acceleration turns and an ability known as supercruise to fly supersonic without the use of a fuel-guzzling afterburner.

An export version, called the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), is also under development in a joint project with India for that country’s air force.

Experts consider the plane comparable to the only fifth-generation fighter currently in operation worldwide, the American F-22 Raptor, which entered service in 2005.

The Moscow-based Sukhoi has been conducting its own test flights of several of the aircraft since 2010, including in-flight refueling and high-agility maneuvers. The company said in October that these had produced favorable results.

 

[Deino]

Were these already posted ???

 

[flateric]

these are screenshots from 2-part documentary

 

[sferrin]

these are screenshots from 2-part documentary

Any chance they're on youtube somewhere?

 

[flateric]

yes, for a while
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL539UBh-0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96fWyMGkT64

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

Stavropol radiozavod "Signal", belongs to the Concern "Radio-electronic technology" (KRET) soon put the first station of electronic warfare "Himalayas" for the fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA project). According to plans of the Russian Air Force serial supplies a fifth generation fighter T-50 will begin in 2016, and the station of electronic warfare is one of the key elements of the project. Last winter, the Air Force received the first T-50 test. So far, only one country in the world is armed with a fifth generation fighter - U.S. F-22 and F-35.
"We are engaged in manufacturing station" Himalayas. "First samples we already do", - told reporters Thursday CEO Alexander Logvinov plant.
Electronic warfare systems for the T-50 have a much smaller size than the previous generation station: "There are several different ideology."
As reported, the T-50 will receive a unique aviation systems and units that will reduce the total weight of the aircraft, while increasing service life.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140424/1005305871.html

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

• design of ultra-wideband, with a range of operating frequencies 2-18 GHz antenna systems mirror with stabilized frequency directivity patterns (OCD "Sakhalin", the prime contractor - All-Russian Scientific Research Institute "Gradient");
• create a spatially distributed aircraft EW systems, adaptive to the composition and functioning of radar control systems for weapons of the enemy, together with digital processing and the formation of coherent distributed interferers for UAVs 6th generation (OCD "Himalaya", the prime contractor - Kaluga Research Institute of Radio Engineering);
• creation of EW with ultra-wideband (two to three octaves) transceiver modules and solid-state broadband digital processing of radio signals based on multipath (at least four simultaneously formed beams) antenna arrays for decimeter (1-6 GHz), centimeter (6-18 GHz) and millimeter wave (32-40 GHz) wavelength ranges for aircraft 5th generation, including PAK FA and Su-35S (OCD "Ricochet" and "Rank", the prime contractor - KRRTI);
• introduction of industrial technology for unified number receiving microwave devices with advanced (60 dB and above) the dynamic range of the received signals, providing bespropuskovy reception with a high probability of reception and accurate determination of the parameters of the received signals in terms of deliberate restriction of time and change the radiation RES opponent ( OCD "Piston", the prime contractor - Taganrog Research Institute of Communications);
• creation of basic hardware and software modules for operational monitoring and detection of radio signals with a complex signal-code design (OCD "Stapel" prime contractor - Design Bureau Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication);
• design and manufacture of high-precision equipment for digital RTR provides including the ability to use precision-guided weapons on radiation sources (OCD "Rynda", the prime contractor - Design Bureau Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication);
• create a spatially distributed radar systems secretive air and ground targets based on active phased array radar and passive systems in the meter and decameter (OCD "bullet", "Perturbation-1", "Duga-1", "Leader-SV", head Artist - Design Bureau Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication).[/l][/l]

• http://vpk.name/news/92403_boevyie_lazeryi_budushih_voin.html

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

As I currently understand it, the internal weapon arrangement will be an izdeliye 760 SRAAM in each of the LERX bays, either 2 RVV-BD or 2 izdeliye 180 / K-77M in each of the two main bays. But since the Izdeliye 180 are AMRAAM sized missiles, is it possible to pack 3 in the main bay by staggering them like the F-22 does with the AMRAAM?

 

[FighterJock]

As I currently understand it, the internal weapon arrangement will be an izdeliye 760 SRAAM in each of the LERX bays, either 2 RVV-BD or 2 izdeliye 180 / K-77M in each of the two main bays. But since the Izdeliye 180 are AMRAAM sized missiles, is it possible to pack 3 in the main bay by staggering them like the F-22 does with the AMRAAM?

I don't know if it is possible to pack 3 izdeliye 180s in the main weapons bays of the PAK-FA, as the engine air intakes are too narrow. Perhaps Flateric would like to say something on this matter as I have only judged what I know about the PAK-FAs weapon carrying capability's on photo's I have seen in magazines and on this forum.

 

[Sundog]

As I currently understand it, the internal weapon arrangement will be an izdeliye 760 SRAAM in each of the LERX bays, either 2 RVV-BD or 2 izdeliye 180 / K-77M in each of the two main bays. But since the Izdeliye 180 are AMRAAM sized missiles, is it possible to pack 3 in the main bay by staggering them like the F-22 does with the AMRAAM?

Aren't the doors too each bay individual sets? I don't think they open like they do on the F-22, so I don't know how you would operate the third trapeze in the middle.

 

[Avimimus]

As I currently understand it, the internal weapon arrangement will be an izdeliye 760 SRAAM in each of the LERX bays, either 2 RVV-BD or 2 izdeliye 180 / K-77M in each of the two main bays. But since the Izdeliye 180 are AMRAAM sized missiles, is it possible to pack 3 in the main bay by staggering them like the F-22 does with the AMRAAM?

I don't know if it is possible to pack 3 izdeliye 180s in the main weapons bays of the PAK-FA, as the engine air intakes are too narrow. Perhaps Flateric would like to say something on this matter as I have only judged what I know about the PAK-FAs weapon carrying capability's on photo's I have seen in magazines and on this forum.

Based on the patents for the launchers, the dimensions of the bays, and the development of several air-to-ground weapons in the 700 kg - it seems pretty clear that the main air-to-air configuration is planned to be 4xRVV-BD weight-class missiles. The R-77 class weapons could still be carried externally of course.

I'd find the development of a smaller diameter medium-long range missile that could be mounted in pairs on the existing 700kg launchers (i.e. four per bay, two per door) more plausible than a 3xRVV-AE configuration. Anyway, the situation will be clarified when we get a bay-open picture (and can see if there is a third, smaller trapeze).

 

[Triton]

yes, for a while

Now if only I can get Translate Captions to work.

 

[FighterJock]

As I currently understand it, the internal weapon arrangement will be an izdeliye 760 SRAAM in each of the LERX bays, either 2 RVV-BD or 2 izdeliye 180 / K-77M in each of the two main bays. But since the Izdeliye 180 are AMRAAM sized missiles, is it possible to pack 3 in the main bay by staggering them like the F-22 does with the AMRAAM?

I don't know if it is possible to pack 3 izdeliye 180s in the main weapons bays of the PAK-FA, as the engine air intakes are too narrow. Perhaps Flateric would like to say something on this matter as I have only judged what I know about the PAK-FAs weapon carrying capability's on photo's I have seen in magazines and on this forum.

Based on the patents for the launchers, the dimensions of the bays, and the development of several air-to-ground weapons in the 700 kg - it seems pretty clear that the main air-to-air configuration is planned to be 4xRVV-BD weight-class missiles. The R-77 class weapons could still be carried externally of course.

I'd find the development of a smaller diameter medium-long range missile that could be mounted in pairs on the existing 700kg launchers (i.e. four per bay, two per door) more plausible than a 3xRVV-AE configuration. Anyway, the situation will be clarified when we get a bay-open picture (and can see if there is a third, smaller trapeze).

That would be an interesting development for the PAK-FA in terms of internal weapons carrying capability.

 

[flateric]

RVV-BD was never intended for T-50, neither for internal carriage

 

[Avimimus]

RVV-BD was never intended for T-50, neither for internal carriage

...4xRVV-BD weight-class missiles.

I pay attention to your posts flateric - that is why I qualified my statement. If you read my post closely, I never suggested that the missile currently referred to as the RVV-BD would be carried on the T-50.

Of course, Vympel has stated that it can be integrated on the Sukhoi 35 and T-50. The 700kg launchers and bay dimensions fit with a similarly sized missile. Finally, the terms RVV-SD, RVV-MD and RVV-BD are descriptive terms for classes of prospective missiles. So, one could argue that any high diameter air-to-air missile for the T-50 would be an 'RVV-BD' even if it bore no relation to the R-37M development program.

Despite all of this - I have incorporated your earlier information about the RVV-BD as displayed for the Mig-31 upgrade program is designed for conformal carriage on the Mig-31, not internal carriage on the T-50. I assume from your past posts that another missile will be developed for the T-50. All of the other evidence seems to suggest that it could be another missile in the same weight class.

 

[flateric]

designation of the biggie is known publicly for eight years already

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

I think the RVV-BD may dimensionally fit into the weapon bay, since it seems to share the same dimensions as the Kh-58UShE.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/t-50-update

That said, I'm honestly a bit disappointed that the T-50 will initially have a smaller weapon load than the F-22.

 

[flateric]

no, it can't. after applying a bit of deduction to missile photos you even can see, why

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

Perhaps, by RVV-BD weight class missiles, Avimimus meant the izdeliye 810.

 

[Avimimus]

Yes.

In the Western press the 810 is usually considered an 'RVV-BD' contender, with RVV-BD being the weapon class / requirement, and Izdeliye 810 being an actual missile that is under development for that requirement.

To make matters worse the 810 is usually considered to be a further development of the K-37M (probably because all modern high diametre missiles are conflated in the Western press).

As usual, English language sources are pretty unreliable. If Flateric can clarify what is known - I'm sure it would be appreciated.

 

[fightingirish]

yes, for a while

Now with English captions at BitnikGr YouTube Channel.

The latest and the most extensive documentary by Wings of Russia studio about PAK-FA, the future 5th generation Russian fighter plane!.
Enjoy!

Part 1:

http://youtu.be/Li-xPxcA8tg

http://youtu.be/Li-xPxcA8tg

Part 2:
http://youtu.be/E4PrpmztzMc

http://youtu.be/E4PrpmztzMc

 

[FighterJock]

yes, for a while

Now with English captions at BitnikGr YouTube Channel.

The latest and the most extensive documentary by Wings of Russia studio about PAK-FA, the future 5th generation Russian fighter plane!.
Enjoy!

Part 1:

http://youtu.be/Li-xPxcA8tg

Part 2:

http://youtu.be/E4PrpmztzMc

Excellent Videos Fightingirish, its a pity they never went with a delta winged S-37, they could have had a operational variant much sooner that the PAK-FA.

 

[kcran567]

At 5:21 of the first video the Mig 1.44 seems to have a nozzle malfunction of the Left nozzle (it is open), has anybody noticed this? was there an engine malfunction on that test flight?

 

[flateric]

there were many things that did happen on maiden flight, but time yet to come to tell about them

 

[kcran567]

Thanks. The 1.44 was always interesting. So much secrecy around it.

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

I'm honestly rather curious how the PAK FA empty weight and MTOW is smaller than the F-22's. The T-50 is slightly larger in both length and wingspan, has the same potential weapon capacity, is also rated 9 g, and carries even more fuel and avionics systems. It seems like the percentage of composites used is roughly the same as the F-22, i.e. around 25%. So what exactly is making this aircraft lighter? Lack of heavier heat-dissipating nozzles? Lighter RAM? Lower structural margin?

 

[kcran567]

Look at the cockpit area of the f-22 underneath the pilot and see how deep the f-22 is in that area and it extends back and tapers. Look at the photos of the T-50 and the forward fuselage area and it looks noticeably smaller in appearance. I would think it is around the same size as a Super Hornet. Also, it is smaller than a Flanker. The f-22 was designed to penetrate deep into enemy defenses and is the Pakfa built to do that necessarily? It is lighter and smaller and in the same category as the super Hornet in my opinion as to the roles it was intended to do. But there are others on this forum who would know better. I really don't think is is bigger than a Raptor regardless of whats been shown so far.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

Well, based on the information so far, it's built to fight legacy, similar, and unmanned* aircraft.

*see previous post quoting Himalayas

As far as weight and size goes, there really isn't any official figures and the best ones you'll arrive at are wild guesses so it's impossible to know whether it would be lighter or heavier than the F-22. The airframe will only get a bit heavier as the rear end becomes reinforced, and more module and sensor combinations are added.

When it comes to "hypothetical" weight reduction compared to other 5th generation designs, aside from use of composites, it would probably because they didn't overdo the faceting of the nacelle portion, they went for a framed canopy, and they went for a "partial" serpentine instead of a full serpentine duct which would eat up some space and add some bulk/complexity.

 

[Sundog]

Well, based on the information so far, it's built to fight legacy, similar, and unmanned* aircraft.

*see previous post quoting Himalayas

As far as weight and size goes, there really isn't any official figures and the best ones you'll arrive at are wild guesses so it's impossible to know whether it would be lighter or heavier than the F-22. The airframe will only get a bit heavier as the rear end becomes reinforced, and more module and sensor combinations are added.

When it comes to "hypothetical" weight reduction compared to other 5th generation designs, aside from use of composites, it would probably because they didn't overdo the faceting of the nacelle portion, they went for a framed canopy, and they went for a "partial" serpentine instead of a full serpentine duct which would eat up some space and add some bulk/complexity.

I agree with this, especially the fact that we don't really know the official weight of the aircraft. Having said that, the T-50 has better span loading than the F-22 does as well. If you look at the vehicle from the front, you can see the weight of the fuselage, weapons, and the nacelles/engines are spread across the span. That generally helps structurally. However, there can be draw backs because you can end up with more structural stress due to there being more longitudinal corners. Once again, it's all about the tradeoffs. However, I doubt a fully mission capable T-50 will weigh less than an F-22.