Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part I [2010-2012]
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groomi said:flanker said:
Germans friends say me that "three best Russian expressions are "Tomorrow", "Maybe" and "Maybe tomorrow"
Maybe in first quarter of the next year
(I'm sorry. Very bad English)
Hello Groomi, nice to see you here.
I have two questions:
Could you please say what color scheme will first production Su-35S and T-50-2 carry? (if you know)
Will PAK-FA have a new scheme, or same colors as on Su-35S 902 and T-50-1?
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http://vpk.name/news/47636_razvitie_aviacionnogo_vooruzheniya_pak_fa_budet_idti_parallelno_s_razvitiem_samogo_istrebitelya__gendirektor_korporacii_takticheskoe_raketnoe_vooruzhenie.html
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Fifth-gen jets in IAF arsenal in a decade
20 DEC, 2010, 09.30AM IST, RAJAT PANDIT,TNN
NEW DELHI: It will take a decade for India to begin inducting the first lot of the 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) it is going to jointly develop and manufacture with Russia.
As per the detailed roadmap finalised between India and Russia, the "series production" of FGFA will be launched in 2019, with the actual deliveries to begin in 2020, sources said.
The stage for the entire FGFA programme, which will see India spending upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project, will finally be set this week.
With Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in town, New Delhi and Moscow will ink the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) for FGFA on Tuesday. Then, over the next 18 months, the two sides will work out the detailed design and other agreements to kickstart the actual building of FGFA.
"Forty Indian designers and scientists will be stationed in Russia, with a similar number of Russians here. A secure data link will also be set up to ensure both sides are fully in the picture all the time," said a source.
The total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $11 billion, with both sides chipping in with $5.50 billion each in the "50-50% partnership".
India, for instance, will spend $2.50 billion of its $5.50 billion share in setting up infrastructure for manufacturing plants, tooling facilities and hangars.
Each "swing role" FGFA, with a deadly mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, will cost an additional $100 million or so.
Cash-strapped Russia is already flying the prototype of its single-seater FGFA called Sukhoi T-50. While the Indian FGFA will basically be based on this fighter, it will "be tweaked to meet IAF requirements".
For one, IAF wants a twin-seater FGFA, with one pilot actually flying the jet and the other handling sensors and weapon systems. Russia, however, feels adding a second cockpit will "adversely impact" the stealth.
For another, IAF is keen on a new engine with "a greater thrust" than the one Russia is currently using for its FGFA. "All these things will take time and money... Six to seven prototypes should be flying by 2017. It will take about 2,500 hours of flying to get the final flight certification," he said.
With IPR (intellectual property rights) being "equally and jointly vested", India and Russia may also decide to sell the FGFA to "third countries" by mutual consent.
Till FGFA becomes a reality, India's combat fleet will mainly revolve around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft to be acquired in the $10.4 billion project and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/fifth-gen-jets-in-iaf-arsenal-in-a-decade/articleshow/7131337.cms
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Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter to fly in 2011
12:23 20/12/2010
The Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter aircraft will take to the skies in early 2011, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) President Alexei Fyodorov said on Monday.
"We have put the deadline forward to the start of 2011," he said.
"It is important for us that the second prototype is a development of the first, not simply a repeat," he added.
Work is underway on the third prototype, incorporating even more advanced systems, he said.
Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet based on the T-50 design.
They later put the estimated project design cost at $295 million.
The contract is to be signed by HAL and UAC officials during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to India on December 20-22.
The two sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, initially focusing on the single-seat version. The costs will be shared equally between Russia and India.
The first Russian prototype T-50 made its maiden flight in January 2010.
The new fighter aircraft is expected to enter service with the Indian Air Force by 2020.
NEW DELHI, December 20 (RIA Novosti)
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20101220/161853847.html
20 DEC, 2010, 09.30AM IST, RAJAT PANDIT,TNN
NEW DELHI: It will take a decade for India to begin inducting the first lot of the 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) it is going to jointly develop and manufacture with Russia.
As per the detailed roadmap finalised between India and Russia, the "series production" of FGFA will be launched in 2019, with the actual deliveries to begin in 2020, sources said.
The stage for the entire FGFA programme, which will see India spending upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project, will finally be set this week.
With Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in town, New Delhi and Moscow will ink the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) for FGFA on Tuesday. Then, over the next 18 months, the two sides will work out the detailed design and other agreements to kickstart the actual building of FGFA.
"Forty Indian designers and scientists will be stationed in Russia, with a similar number of Russians here. A secure data link will also be set up to ensure both sides are fully in the picture all the time," said a source.
The total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $11 billion, with both sides chipping in with $5.50 billion each in the "50-50% partnership".
India, for instance, will spend $2.50 billion of its $5.50 billion share in setting up infrastructure for manufacturing plants, tooling facilities and hangars.
Each "swing role" FGFA, with a deadly mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, will cost an additional $100 million or so.
Cash-strapped Russia is already flying the prototype of its single-seater FGFA called Sukhoi T-50. While the Indian FGFA will basically be based on this fighter, it will "be tweaked to meet IAF requirements".
For one, IAF wants a twin-seater FGFA, with one pilot actually flying the jet and the other handling sensors and weapon systems. Russia, however, feels adding a second cockpit will "adversely impact" the stealth.
For another, IAF is keen on a new engine with "a greater thrust" than the one Russia is currently using for its FGFA. "All these things will take time and money... Six to seven prototypes should be flying by 2017. It will take about 2,500 hours of flying to get the final flight certification," he said.
With IPR (intellectual property rights) being "equally and jointly vested", India and Russia may also decide to sell the FGFA to "third countries" by mutual consent.
Till FGFA becomes a reality, India's combat fleet will mainly revolve around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft to be acquired in the $10.4 billion project and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/fifth-gen-jets-in-iaf-arsenal-in-a-decade/articleshow/7131337.cms
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Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter to fly in 2011
12:23 20/12/2010
The Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter aircraft will take to the skies in early 2011, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) President Alexei Fyodorov said on Monday.
"We have put the deadline forward to the start of 2011," he said.
"It is important for us that the second prototype is a development of the first, not simply a repeat," he added.
Work is underway on the third prototype, incorporating even more advanced systems, he said.
Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet based on the T-50 design.
They later put the estimated project design cost at $295 million.
The contract is to be signed by HAL and UAC officials during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to India on December 20-22.
The two sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, initially focusing on the single-seat version. The costs will be shared equally between Russia and India.
The first Russian prototype T-50 made its maiden flight in January 2010.
The new fighter aircraft is expected to enter service with the Indian Air Force by 2020.
NEW DELHI, December 20 (RIA Novosti)
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20101220/161853847.html
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and finally...
Russia, India sign design contract for prototype multirole fighter
11:26 21/12/2010
Russia and India signed a contract on Tuesday to jointly develop a design for a new fifth-generation multirole fighter.
The document was signed between Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's current visit to India.
Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet based on the T-50 design.
The project design cost is estimated at $295 million, shared equally between Russia and India.
The two sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, initially focusing on the single-seat version.
Russia has been developing its own fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Russia's Far East.
Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.
Russia is planning to use the jointly-developed 5G fighter as an export version of T-50, while India is expecting the new fighter aircraft to enter service with its air force by 2020.
NEW DELHI, December 21 (RIA Novosti)
Russia, India sign design contract for prototype multirole fighter
11:26 21/12/2010
Russia and India signed a contract on Tuesday to jointly develop a design for a new fifth-generation multirole fighter.
The document was signed between Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's current visit to India.
Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet based on the T-50 design.
The project design cost is estimated at $295 million, shared equally between Russia and India.
The two sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, initially focusing on the single-seat version.
Russia has been developing its own fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Russia's Far East.
Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.
Russia is planning to use the jointly-developed 5G fighter as an export version of T-50, while India is expecting the new fighter aircraft to enter service with its air force by 2020.
NEW DELHI, December 21 (RIA Novosti)
India, Russia Formalise 5th Gen Fighter Effort ( via livefist )
Official statement:
The Contract was signed by Mr. A Isaykin, General Director, Rosoboronexport and Mr. M Pogosyan, General Director RAC MiG & Sukhoi from the Russian side and Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL and Mr. NC Agarwal, Director (D&D), HAL from the Indian side at Delhi.
Official statement:
The Contract was signed by Mr. A Isaykin, General Director, Rosoboronexport and Mr. M Pogosyan, General Director RAC MiG & Sukhoi from the Russian side and Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL and Mr. NC Agarwal, Director (D&D), HAL from the Indian side at Delhi.
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Austin said:sferrin said:Makes one glad we cancelled the F-22.
I believe they can restart the production line if required.
That's the theory. $$$$$ might make it unlikely though given that they've already killed what program efficiency they've achieved by interrupting the supply chain.
[quote author=sferrin]That's the theory. $$$$$ might make it unlikely though given that they've already killed what program efficiency they've achieved by interrupting the supply chain.
[/quote]
My thought on F-22 was they should have allowed export of F-22 in "Export Model" variant to their selected allies which would have subsidized the program and would have kept the production line viable not sure why they didnt do it but would rather prefer closing the F-22 product line.
F-22 may not be fundamental to US air dominance but would hurt its aerospace industry , Did they achieve break even on F-22 program ?
[/quote]
My thought on F-22 was they should have allowed export of F-22 in "Export Model" variant to their selected allies which would have subsidized the program and would have kept the production line viable not sure why they didnt do it but would rather prefer closing the F-22 product line.
F-22 may not be fundamental to US air dominance but would hurt its aerospace industry , Did they achieve break even on F-22 program ?
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I don't know of any allies that could afford the F-22. Britain looked at it, which is probably the only country we would export it to anyway, and they couldn't afford it. Building an export version was too cost prohibitive; IIRC, LM considered this with Japan, if Japan picked up the tab to make the export version changes and Japan said no thanks.
Seriously, I'm supposed to be worried about a plane that won't possibly be operational until 2020, if they even meet the schedule, and then how many years until they have enough numbers to make a difference, if ever? We'll be able to build something much better than the F-22 by the time the T-50 gets anywhere near operational service. Hell, even the USAF isn't worried about it.
Seriously, I'm supposed to be worried about a plane that won't possibly be operational until 2020, if they even meet the schedule, and then how many years until they have enough numbers to make a difference, if ever? We'll be able to build something much better than the F-22 by the time the T-50 gets anywhere near operational service. Hell, even the USAF isn't worried about it.
Avimimus
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Sundog said:
I know - the Russians (and now Indians) have handed an entire generation of American engineers a multi-billion dollar justification. Undoubtedly the new U.S. platform will be superior as well (considering that it will significantly post-date the T-50). After all, the obvious advantage of the PAK-FA over the ATF is that it is entering service a full quarter century later.
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
Russians are not that far behind. There already was enormous investment in the 5th generation fighters and it was in the second half of the 80s. In fact this was one of a number of factors that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. PAK FA seems to be (because there is not really official data available) more than a 5th generation fighter. Its something like the JSF, it means 5th generation merged with the latest trends, especially the affordability.
In my opinion F-22 failed at all as the weapon system, because even the richest air force in the whole world cant afford it. It was designed under the cold war doctrine which means that it has many good, but in the current environment unnecessary capabilities. Its not the point being able to design and build the best fighter ever, the point is making it being used in the real opperational service in the sufficient nubmers. PAK FA and JSF still have that chance, so we will see (how the politicans will decide).
In my opinion F-22 failed at all as the weapon system, because even the richest air force in the whole world cant afford it. It was designed under the cold war doctrine which means that it has many good, but in the current environment unnecessary capabilities. Its not the point being able to design and build the best fighter ever, the point is making it being used in the real opperational service in the sufficient nubmers. PAK FA and JSF still have that chance, so we will see (how the politicans will decide).
Colonial-Marine
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I don't think the F-22A failed as a weapon system. We could certainly afford more but the F-35 was cheaper and appealed more to current military/political leadership. There are some good reason to that but terminating production certainly seemed premature. Ideally F-22 production and development would be ongoing so technologies common with the F-35 could be incorporated. To me this seems the equivalent of terminating F-15 production after 187 airframes in favor of more F-16s.
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Colonial-Marine said:
I have always been of the opinion that making such a rapid shift from the F-22 to the F-35 was a serious error. The former, in its latter batches, were very affordable and very capable. The aircraft has considerable development potential left with space reserved for flank arrays and EO systems and relatively large bomb bays (though not as large / well shaped as the F-35). Lockheed has now even offered to bring some avionics commonality to the two aircraft. It seems that the USAF is paying an incredibly large sum of money to develop an aircraft with less LO capability but fractionally larger bomb bays than the Raptor. Perhaps it may have been better to have stuck with the F-22 and continued to work to lower its unit and operating costs whilst increasing its utility.
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we have these nice pics for a half of a year alreadylancer21 said:Some very nice high-rez pics of "51" ,thanks to QuadroFX for pointing to them
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9717.msg96714.html#msg96714
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I really don’t want to open a can of worms regarding the sometimes „strange” discussions about the T-50, but since there’s an interesting one ongoing at the ACIG-Forum, I simply wanted to ask for Your opinion … seems as if there are not too many Russian-speaking members online …
http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6518&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
To start with, the discussion circles around an article / interview recently published - and then rapidly withdrawn - by Komsomolskaya Pravda:
Tom put then together the following problems cited:
- The structure of the aircraft is limited to 500km/h at low levels. It's simply not built for low-level combat operations and would likely fall apart due to the massive gust response (well, no wonder considering the size of the wing).
- Originally, C-in-C RuAF, Gen Mikhailov wanted to have the PAK-FA with a max speed of 2,600km/h. Subsequently, on request from the manufacturer, this had to get lowered down "two" times (actually three times), "from 2,500km/h" to "2,300km/h", then to "2,130km/h"
- "There was a concept for an interim fighter...[i.e. the "FGFA"]...years of daydreams...the train was out..."
- The Indian involvement "should be 50%" but "there is nothing Indian" in the T.50. It's now called "Russian-Indian" project, because of this intergovernmental agreement.
- Even funnier is when the person providing all this commentary explains that the radar is going to be "two times more powerful" than that of the Raptor. By side that the Russian radar is still between 5 and 8 years away from becoming operational.... but, one should expect that 20-30 years after the first flight of the YF-22, the Russians might become capable of fielding something that's at least a match for the AN/APG-77. On the other, we've heard so many such explanations already 40 years ago - and still, it was only in the early years of this century, that the Russians came out with something closely matching the APG-65 from the mid-1970s in multi-role capability, function and performance (not to talk about man-machine interface)... Hell, this navalized Indian MIG-29s is to become the first ever true multi-role variant of that fighter at all (more than 30 years AFTER the type originally entered service!).
Any idea about its reliability, credibility …
Thanks in advance,
Deino
http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6518&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
To start with, the discussion circles around an article / interview recently published - and then rapidly withdrawn - by Komsomolskaya Pravda:
Tom put then together the following problems cited:
- The structure of the aircraft is limited to 500km/h at low levels. It's simply not built for low-level combat operations and would likely fall apart due to the massive gust response (well, no wonder considering the size of the wing).
- Originally, C-in-C RuAF, Gen Mikhailov wanted to have the PAK-FA with a max speed of 2,600km/h. Subsequently, on request from the manufacturer, this had to get lowered down "two" times (actually three times), "from 2,500km/h" to "2,300km/h", then to "2,130km/h"
- "There was a concept for an interim fighter...[i.e. the "FGFA"]...years of daydreams...the train was out..."
- The Indian involvement "should be 50%" but "there is nothing Indian" in the T.50. It's now called "Russian-Indian" project, because of this intergovernmental agreement.
- Even funnier is when the person providing all this commentary explains that the radar is going to be "two times more powerful" than that of the Raptor. By side that the Russian radar is still between 5 and 8 years away from becoming operational.... but, one should expect that 20-30 years after the first flight of the YF-22, the Russians might become capable of fielding something that's at least a match for the AN/APG-77. On the other, we've heard so many such explanations already 40 years ago - and still, it was only in the early years of this century, that the Russians came out with something closely matching the APG-65 from the mid-1970s in multi-role capability, function and performance (not to talk about man-machine interface)... Hell, this navalized Indian MIG-29s is to become the first ever true multi-role variant of that fighter at all (more than 30 years AFTER the type originally entered service!).
Any idea about its reliability, credibility …
Thanks in advance,
Deino
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It was never withdrawn and since August at the same place where it was - a blog of Victor Baranets, retired colonel and so called military observer of yellowish Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. His moral level can be judged from fact that he felt free to discuss possibility of Col. Levchenko betrayal and escape to China when SAR teams were still searching crash site and remains of pilot of Su-27SM from Dzemgi last year.
We see here attempt of those who lost the competition - from context it's clear that it's not MiG staff with their E-721 butcompetitors from inside Sukhoi with alternative, so called 'heavy PAK FA' entry. When someone says that his fighter can carry two Kh-55 and fly twice of T-50 range, 'easily calculating this performance data on calculator', performing role of PAK DA and uses such political clown as Zhirinovsky to promote an aircraft project to President Medvedev - 'our letter at the table of President' - you are starting to worry about his mental health. As 'letter to President was on his table in August' then it seems that this paper was used according with a level of its significance - went in the watercloset or either other appropriate place.
We see here attempt of those who lost the competition - from context it's clear that it's not MiG staff with their E-721 butcompetitors from inside Sukhoi with alternative, so called 'heavy PAK FA' entry. When someone says that his fighter can carry two Kh-55 and fly twice of T-50 range, 'easily calculating this performance data on calculator', performing role of PAK DA and uses such political clown as Zhirinovsky to promote an aircraft project to President Medvedev - 'our letter at the table of President' - you are starting to worry about his mental health. As 'letter to President was on his table in August' then it seems that this paper was used according with a level of its significance - went in the watercloset or either other appropriate place.
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500km/h at low level argument itselfs makes the article not credible...hell a spitfire can fly faster!
But for max speed i recall somewhere circa 2006 that news indeed talked about reduction to mach 2.
I'd be interested to hear more about the heavy pak fa entre and mig E-721; configuration? planned performance etc?
As for the debate on ACIG; Tom's knowledge aside, the arguemnt that T-50 is just a developped SU-27 just because it has round engines is not very serious.
But for max speed i recall somewhere circa 2006 that news indeed talked about reduction to mach 2.
I'd be interested to hear more about the heavy pak fa entre and mig E-721; configuration? planned performance etc?
As for the debate on ACIG; Tom's knowledge aside, the arguemnt that T-50 is just a developped SU-27 just because it has round engines is not very serious.
There is not a single identical structural assembly other than the nozzles as far as I can see. Not even the unpainted area is exactly the same, neither the outer mold line of the fairing which sits higher in the airframe with respect to the wing/tail plane than it does in the Su-27 family, nor the access panels (far fewer and serrated on the lower side). The stinger is completely different, the engines are further apart and have a weapons bay in between them - at which point DOES it become a new design according to you if this is not enough?
Demon Lord Razgriz
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I don't think sferrin meant it was a Su-27 gone stealthy, but the design of the Su-27 lead to the T-50's design. I think the closest western analog was Northrup's designs stemming from the F-5/F-20 leading to the YF-17.
sferrin said:
Fair enough, that could actually be true (although the significant differences mentioned above would likely require some alterations to the tools). IMHO that's a very far cry from it having "a good portion of the Su-27's entire backend" or the whole aircraft being essentially a Silent Flanker though.
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Trident said:
I never said it was a "Silent Flanker" along the lines of the F-15SE. I said, "a good portion of the Su-27's entire backend", which is an accurate comment IMO. I didn't say the entire backend.
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Well i'm not quite sure about all of that but my point was that we lack information to assert that.
Because being a rip of SU-27 like tom says suppose:
-The plane was drawn with the SU-27 as a starting point
-The plane was built with a majority of technics that are similar to SU-27
-The plane has similar performance traits I.E it tends to behave like the SU-27 but with ehanced performance
I think we lack all of the 3 points to have a good argumentation and looks are not an accurate argument. It is very subjective in addition; While of course i see some similarities i don't see that plane being more flanker evolution or else then the F-22 is just a stealthy F-15...
Because being a rip of SU-27 like tom says suppose:
-The plane was drawn with the SU-27 as a starting point
-The plane was built with a majority of technics that are similar to SU-27
-The plane has similar performance traits I.E it tends to behave like the SU-27 but with ehanced performance
I think we lack all of the 3 points to have a good argumentation and looks are not an accurate argument. It is very subjective in addition; While of course i see some similarities i don't see that plane being more flanker evolution or else then the F-22 is just a stealthy F-15...
Avimimus
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Well, I've always assumed that any Sukhoi design uses past Sukhoi (or TsAGI) studies and that Russian air doctrines require widely spaced engines, high maneuverability etc. - Similarities don't surprise me.
After all, the F-22 is just a derived F-15
But let's not start that discussion again!
This seems supported by the actual design - lots of room around the engines and issuing of contracts for a 2nd generation of considerably more powerful engines (allowing the original requirement to be met).
After all, the F-22 is just a derived F-15
But let's not start that discussion again!
Ogami musashi said:
This seems supported by the actual design - lots of room around the engines and issuing of contracts for a 2nd generation of considerably more powerful engines (allowing the original requirement to be met).
P
PAK FA
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It is definitively an evolution of the Flanker concept but not an evolution of the Su-27 as an aircraft.sferrin said:
It has similarities but as a concept, integral layout, twin fins and wing LERX, as such yes it is an evolution, but it also has a few revolutions, single piece dorsal fins without rudder, a LEVCON that blends the fuction of the previous canards and wing LERX.
Faceted fuselage and inlet.
This makes the T-50 a new aircraft with new aerodynamics and concepts.
It is more a YF-23 concept with F-22 wings and tail and an original LEVCON on a SU-27 basic layout.
Definitively it will be aerodynamically speaking the most advanced stealth fighter of the 4 that are in design or operation including the F-22, F-35 and J-20.
When it gets its new engine and new 2D nozzle type it will be a total match for the F-22 and more more advanced than the J-20, it will be better than these two.
where it might fall short well perhaps avionics or weapons, but it is a very smart design.
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PAK FA said:
Lot's of guess there; Aerodynamics are not done by the eye;
Let see first what will be the real production version of pak-fa...
Ogami musashi said:
I look at the t-50 and see the Russians wanted to take the best from each aircraft...
front end cockpit area very Northrop yf-23 like with a f-22 wing and Flanker style "centroplane" lifting fuselage for the weapons bays...add in the all moving vertical tails, adjustable LERX, and 3-d vectoring and you have a less stealthy, yet more maneuverable airplane than the f-22, but later versions should be more stealthy.
Regarding those who believe that the t-50 and Flanker are related, only in the nacelle layout and centroplane. Think of it as a family stealthy "evolution" of the Flanker rather than a completely new jump into an entirely untested airplane configuration.
Otaku
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I'm not sure the Su-27 was used as a starting point, afterall there was the interim S-37 (and even the MiG 1.44) not to mention several other configurations rejected pre-submission in 2003. It appears the F-22 fuselage configuration was rejected out-of-hand (vertical s-duct, w/bay lay-out) as the performance penalties didn't conform with RuAF requirements. If you read the official patent application (c/o flateric) they wanted to keep the side & front profile as low/flat as possible- they 'podded' the engines and hence the T-10 center-plane 'tunnel' came back into play as an aerodynamic device.
I'm confident that the radar-blocker/'banana' duct/canted engine solution is nothing short of revolutionary as far as engine screening is concerned (jubilant J-20 fanboys over at keypubs take note!!). The front & sides of the intakes are faceted, the rear will get 2-D tvc so the question remains what will they do with the rounded bare-metal engine pods (from all aspects)- they must have a plan considering the attention to detail elsewhere.
Tellingly, the Russkies aren't keen on the 2 seater 'FGFA', because of the RCS penalty. Now that Indian money is made available, expect the project to move forward as per schedule (barring any nasty surprises).
I'm confident that the radar-blocker/'banana' duct/canted engine solution is nothing short of revolutionary as far as engine screening is concerned (jubilant J-20 fanboys over at keypubs take note!!). The front & sides of the intakes are faceted, the rear will get 2-D tvc so the question remains what will they do with the rounded bare-metal engine pods (from all aspects)- they must have a plan considering the attention to detail elsewhere.
Tellingly, the Russkies aren't keen on the 2 seater 'FGFA', because of the RCS penalty. Now that Indian money is made available, expect the project to move forward as per schedule (barring any nasty surprises).
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kcran567 said:
Excuse me but when i read things like that...what do you know about stealth? aerodynamics? How can you judge a plane you've seen on 2 videos only by bits?
Do you seriously think things are that simple?
No, you don't take best part from each plane; it doesn't work like that; a plane is an integral thing it is not because you take the 23 like front end with F-22 wings that it works.
When you design a plane you design it with all dimensions in mind.
World is not black or white and a simply study of performance of F-15 vs SU-27 shows you that lerx and tunnel on SU-27 is not equal to better performance;
What is an untested airplane configuration for you? You think that because you have a tunnel it can't bring new flow fields?? That you master it an had only to tweak it??
I wish people would stop believe they can in one glance do the same work than 10 years of windtunnel,CFD and phd+20 years experienced people's work.
Not directed against you in an offensive way but with the release of J-20 i'm overflooded with those kind of people that already know what is good and is not good on a plane that hasn't even left the ground...and the S-duct stupid rants on pak-fa did set me on earlier..
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
Otaku said:
Look at the top of the tail. Is it the logo of the photographer or the real stuff?
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