Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part I [2006-2008]

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From Sukhoi annual report:

Work on T-50 - the 5th generation fighter (combat aviation complex of new generation I -21). Creator of aircraft T -50 - A.N. Davidenko (2004). Beginning of works - 1999.

In 2004 the protection of the draft design of new destroyer is successfully carried out, the experiments are begun
at the flying laboratories. In 2005 OF OKB of dry it continued the development of promising aviation complex. Is developed and prepared to the presentation to state customer engineering design of destroyer and engineering designs his of those completing, mock-up in the electronic form, is prepared and passes finalizing the acting mock-up of cockpit. The tests of the modernized engines are carried out at the flying laboratory, flying laboratory is prepared to the tests along the integrated system for control, are continued flying experiments at the flying laboratory Su-47. Financing the creation of the combat aviation complex of new generation is conducted both along the line of state defense order in accordance with the acting state program of armament and due to the means of company and codevelopers of project. The first stage of the negotiations with the foreign partner about his participation in the program is completed (theme I -21E). In 2006 are planned the completion of development, presentation and protection of the sequential stage of project and its component parts. In "Novosibirsk the aviation production association named after V.P. Chkalov" occur the preparations according to the program of complex I-21. The development programs of complex I-21 and family of the Russian regional aircraft RRJ are national priority programs in the aircraft construction and are ensured by state support. Basic volume NIOKR, made OAO "Sukhoi OKB", it falls to the programs of military aviation - 74.8% and almost half from this volume (36.7%) - NIOKR, connected with the development of complex I -21.

http://www.missiles.ru/reviews.htm

 

[Matej]

Any new indications about how it should look like?

 

[Archibald]

Good pic in Air&Cosmos two weeks ago (I'm still planning to offer a scanner to my father for christmas )

 

[Deino]

Any idea for a realistic first-flight date ?? 208 or 2009 or even earlier ??

Deino ???

 

[Matej]

The last official estimation was 2007, but the most variable factor is still money.

 

[paralay]

On the basis of the forecast: the first flight in 2010.
The first flight copy of an airplane will be broken in the second flight.

 

[flateric]

Any new indications about how it should look like?

TzAGI people nicknamed it 'Big-eared' - you can make at least exact conclusions about vertical fins size, while Sukhoi sabateurs call it Pure Cadavre.
If they could pay adequate, Paralay should got work as military analytic at recently opened new stainless-steel furnished building at Khodynka, vizited by Mr.Putin about two weeks ago...just kidding))))

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

MRPC AVIONICA are designing KSU-10M control system for T-50 aircraft.

 

[flateric]

In Strike Force TV-show on Tuesday was described High Energy Densities of Associated Institute for High Temperatures of RAS (IHED of AIHT of RAS) work on T-50 canopy glass.

 

[Tuomasn]

Does anyone have an idea where this image that appeared on paralay's site originally comes from?
Has someone seen it at some other place?

 

[paralay]

The picture published at a unknown Indian forum. Other data are not present.
There are many discrepancies, therefore her reality are doubtful.

 

[Matej]

India yes, India not, India yes, India not. They are like virgin - she wants and she doesnt want at the same time!

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/21678.html#

After six years of negotiations on jointly developing an advanced fifth generation fighter aircraft with stealth features, New Delhi and Moscow today reached an agreement at a meeting of their Defence Ministers. A formal pact will be be signed shortly after the deal is fine-tuned.

 

[TinWing]

.....at recently opened new stainless-steel furnished building at Khodynka, vizited by Mr.Putin about two weeks ago....

What do you mean by "stainless-steel furnished building?"

 

[flateric]

'Stainless-steel furnished building' is new GRU headquarters. All images (c) RTR-Vesti

 

[tanino]

News from TsAGI: (to RIA NOVOSTI)

"TsAGI's services are used not only by European aircraft manufacturers, but also by the U.S. company Boeing (which tested its Boeing-767 here), Indian HAL, which tested a model of its LCA light fighter jet, Brazilian Embraer-170 and Embraer-190. Currently the Institute is testing a Chinese aircraft whose name and details are kept secret. The tunnel has been used on four models of the T-50 fifth-generation Russian jet fighter, or PAK FA, which means the advanced system for front-line aviation, and other projects not reported in the press. "All this is evidence," Kargopoltsev said.."..

Of usual, the models used in the wind tunnel after some time, we say they appear, they are rendered visible. They said that we can begin to try, that you say some?

;D saluti from Italy

 

[Deino]

Just found at the Keymags forum (posted by Vympel) ... first prototype construction has begun:

Construction of First Fifth Generation Fighter Begins

The Novosibirsk Chkalov Aviation Production Association (NAPO) has begun construction of the fifth generation multirole fighter. This work is being performed at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur together with the aircraft plant at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur, the enterprise's general director, Fedor Zhdanov, reported today during a visit to NAPO by Novosibirsk Oblast governor Viktor Tolokonskiy.

"Final assembly will take place at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur, and we will be carrying out assembly of the fore body of this airplane," Zhdanov specified. The fifth generation fighter which will replace the MiG-29 and Su-27 airplanes of the previous generation, was developed by the Sukhoy design bureau.

NAPO Chkalov also has been realizing series construction of the newest Su-34 multirole bomber since last year. According to the governor, the oblast's government will adopt a complex of measures for supplemental governmental support to NAPO in the very near future. As of today, the most severe problem at the enterprise is personnel. In the 90s, many highly qualified workers were let go under the conditions of a slump and now time is needed for training new ones. "Our assistance will be in the resolution of personnel questions, and also in the provision of lodging for the enterprise's specialists," Tolokonskiy said in this connection.

NAPO Chkalov is one of the country's largest airplane building enterprises and is included in the Sukhoy Holding Company, ITAR-TASS notes.

Source: 06.03.07, Izvestiya.RU

 

[Matej]

NPO Saturn released official "russian 5th generation stealth fighter" drawing. However, be aware, because it looks a lot like the picture in post no. 9 and I dont want to make a hoax like was with F-26 Stalma in Keypublishing some time ago. Note the very (extremely) small vertical tails.

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/photoshow.php?slang=0&id=29

 

[Archibald]

So this would be Su-27 (and family) replacement ? Looks great!!!

 

[Ogami musashi]

Well...what to think about it?

Paralay had this picture for long time:

This is exactly the same model, is it true or not?
I recall NII posting drawings of the pak fa but in fact they had nothing to see with the real design, so here, are we in the same situation?
By the way i find that plane ugly, and aerodynamicaly well, of course modern fighters are to hard to judge by sight but well i hoped for something less "brute lift" except the verticails tails very small wich is very good for drag.

Okay let's not make anticipations we'll see if this is the real design and what it is worth with time, anyway a new comer is always welcome!

 

[flateric]

All I can say is this is not true PAK-FA rendering. Have some patience...hmm...let's say for about half of an year.

 

[Ogami musashi]

i heard on AFM that the PAK-FA name was not the name (nor T-50 nor I-21) given to this project.

My friends in russia don't even know what is "pak fa".

By the way flateric, did you see the actual design? if yes at least the real design is better looking?

 

[Trident]

I was very much intrigued by the appearance of this design on a website of a company that is actually involved in the project, but they have one of Jozef Gatial's renders on another page. So it seems we can't necessarily trust them either and with flateric's comment in mind, I suppose I gave it too much credibility at first.

BTW, isn't August only one third of a year away now? If we're talking about the same event, I might need to try and avoid writing any exams around that time

 

[flateric]

Fresh news (and strange feeling of deja-vu) - PAK-FA passed stage of 'technical mockup project defense' as acting Russian AF chief colonel general Alexander Zelin informed press on April,6. Project timeframe, contractors and customer's main determinations stay the same. First flight in 2009. Now project in a 'technical documentation preparation stage'(?). Forward fuselage will be built in Novosibirsk's NAPO named after Chkalov, final assembly will be done at Komsomolsk-On-Amur KNAAPO.

 

[flateric]

Damn...I didn't notice that we already have new AF commander...Mikhailov is gone with the winds with all his blah-blahs...well, this is not surprising when we have new Secretary of Defense that ruled furniture shop department just several years ago and now went to 1-month brief courses of art of war in general staff academy... O tempora, o mores

Returning to se thread subject - Sergey Ivanov confirmed today that PAK-FA financing is fully confirmed, program is on schedule and 2009 is a first flight date. Meantime guys from Novosibirsk NAPO says that what they saw in T-50 presentation files 'looks slightly better than they expected'.

 

[Ogami musashi]

ahah everybody in russia seems not too optimistic about this plane.

So bad.

 

[Firefly 2]

ahah everybody in russia seems not too optimistic about this plane.

So bad.

I think Russian optimism will be at a low for quite a while, considering the current state of affairs.
But I do like the lines of this project.

 

[shivering]

>| think Russian optimism will be at a low for quite a while, considering the current state of affairs.<

How so? I thought things, especially funding for the military, were going much better
in Russia these days. Although the prototype not taking to the air till 2009 is a wee
bit disappointing to me.............I was looking forward to seeing the beast much sooner.

Additionally, will the MiG-31 eventually be replaced or continue to receive upgrades? Or,
has the advent of the S-400 and other systems made the need for a very long-range
interceptor increasingly irrelevant?

Shame there is no one but Paralay generating conceptions of the new fighter..........I
enjoy all impressions, conservative or fanciful.

Bless the mods for such a wonderful forum. ;D ;D ;D

 

[flateric]

Reading through the forums with insiders seating there and there stopping talking where they begin to remember about so called Pervy Otdel (Security Dept.), common conclusion of PAK-FA as of beast born as result of unalternative contest, won by Sukhoi via palm-oiling AF generals. Many remarks of project being constantly re-worked to reach at least some desired results...many negative remarks from TzAGI people and Sukhoi guys themselves. '117C' engine criticised as well as attempt to copycat AL-41F, and when engine guys say that 'well, 117C is not a top performer, and forget about supercruise, but we hope that at least Sukhoi's can build good airframe', airftame guys say 'oh shit, we thought at least we have good engines, as airframe is not top line as well'

 

[Firefly 2]

>| think Russian optimism will be at a low for quite a while, considering the current state of affairs.<

How so? I thought things, especially funding for the military, were going much better
in Russia these days. Although the prototype not taking to the air till 2009 is a wee
bit disappointing to me.............I was looking forward to seeing the beast much sooner.

Additionally, will the MiG-31 eventually be replaced or continue to receive upgrades? Or,
has the advent of the S-400 and other systems made the need for a very long-range
interceptor increasingly irrelevant?

Shame there is no one but Paralay generating conceptions of the new fighter..........I
enjoy all impressions, conservative or fanciful.

Bless the mods for such a wonderful forum. ;D ;D ;D

I'm sorry. It's just because of the bleak image of Russia in general nowadays... I agree that development and military projects are looking good, but sometimes it seems that is the only good news coming out of Russia.
I will keep my non-technical comments to myself, from now onwards.
My excuses

 

[paralay]

 

[Woody]

Well Flight seam to be buying it.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/24/213364/picture-russian-sukhoi-t-50-fighter-images-emerge.html

Cheers, Woody

 

[flateric]

And for dessert...mmm...this be a clue to PAK-FA real image...in some way.

 

[flateric]

I wonder really why RCS models of US planes were given much more interest by forum public that direct leak of 95% genuine T-50 configuration

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Moved to new topic. Discuss

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

NPO Saturn's CGI image for comparison.

 

[Ogami musashi]

flateric could you be clearer? is this a close model to the real one?


I heard that finally the T-50 itself was not really close to the desired pak fa, someone has information?


At last to CGI model here is more credible, the LERX/nose is pretty unstable in pitch (but hey that could work), they retained the lifting body of SU-27 wich is do prefer, and the planform is okay.

So this is this one that is not good according to your source flateric?

 

[flateric]

People involved confirmed that NPO Saturn drawings are pretty close to real thing, except empennage being slightly 'modified' being made more 'Su-27 style'. Fuselage nose has more lenght on real thing, wingspan is shorther. The same time, Sukhoi authorities officially denied any connection of the drawing to T-50 being asked by Andrey Fomin, editor of Vzlyot (Take-Off) magazine - this was mentioned in short notice in May issue.

http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/archive/1353/1353889.htm

In fact, we have three leaks from the various sources that shows aerodynamic concept with many common details, one being RCS computer model from 2nd TzNII MO RF, all being very defferent from previous PAK-FA renderings, but as we know PAK-FA went through many iterations itself. At least its nickname Ushastik (big-eared) given to one of PAK-FA iterations by TzAGI gremlins, are not corresponing with what we see now.

 

[Ogami musashi]

Thank you.

That's true that looking at the NPO saturn one and this RCS model, many common features appears.

Also i'd like to know why the pak-fa is said to be "not so top" airframe? i mean what makes it average?

 

[flateric]

Because PAK-FA is a big compromise in terms of politics, Russian aerospace industry top players and AF top staff personal relationships, cost, airframe, powerplant and avionics, etc. It's overweight, its RFP being constantly re-written if favor of design bureau attempts to 'final cut' the design that went through many iterations.

 

[Trident]

In all fairness though, most fighter projects seem 'overweight' to some degree nowadays. The Typhoon, the Super Hornet, according to a few sources even the Raptor now appears to have overshot its target of 14000 to 15000kg by a handsome margin (anyone have definitive numbers?).