Sukarno stays in power - what would Australia do?

[Dilandu]

The missile boats and Corvettes would be used internally within the archipelago simply to keep control of the country.

Depend on type. The Project 159, for example, have 2000 nm range (3800 km), i.e. they could operate in Arafura and Timor seas pretty well.

 

[Scott Kenny]

It's within the horizon only. P-15 Termit is over-the-horizon.

How well do P-15s do when there's lots of islands in the area?

Because once into the archipelago, I suspect that pretty much all missile engagements would be within the horizon. FACs hiding behind an island and then popping around to take their shots.

Which of course makes the best use of all those FAC-Ms with the range advantage to be keeping the Aussies out of the archipelago in the first place.

 

[Dilandu]

How well do P-15s do when there's lots of islands in the area?

Not sure about radar homing versions, but infrared-homing versions should feel just fine)

 

[Archibald]

Not sure about radar homing versions, but infrared-homing versions should feel just fine)

As long as they don't lock on a rocky island scorched by the Sun, hence a massive IR hotspot. Early infrared seekers were notoriously stupid like that, for example AIM-9B homing on desert sand dunes scorched by the Sun, somewhere in the Middle East...

 

[Dilandu]

As long as they don't lock on a rocky island scorched by the Sun, hence a massive IR hotspot. Early infrared seekers were notoriously stupid like that, for example AIM-9B homing on desert sand dunes scorched by the Sun, somewhere in the Middle East...

Well, it's possible - after all, Indians sucsessfully used IR-guided Termit's to hit Pakistan fuel tanks, heated by sun. But not exactly very likely. It required the IR source, comparable to ship signature, to be within seeker search arc. If there is no ranging data about target (i.e. missile fired its seeker immediately after launch), yes, it may happens. If there is ranging data and missile activate its seeker only near the target predicted position - the probability of unconvenient hot island popping out is pretty low.

 

[Pioneer]

Been trying to find your 'two hardpoints under each wing' recollection Scott Kenny....Now this TF-8Aish Twosader is just being greedy, with it's six underwing hardpoints!

(Source: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/88772-sf2-vought-tf-8-crusader-pack-what-if/)

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Dilandu]

Been trying to find your 'two hardpoints under each wing' recollection Scott Kenny....Now this TF-8Aish Twosader is just being greedy, with it's six underwing hardpoints!

Whoa! Is it based on real project, or pure fiction?

 

[Pioneer]

Whoa! Is it based on real project, or pure fiction?

Fiction, unfortunately!
I found the 'factual' Chance-Vought drawing of the V-383/F-8 Crusader, with the four-winged hardpoints and Sparrow I's I was thinking of in my copy of Vought F-8 Crusader: Development & Operational use of the Navy's first supersonic jet fighter, by Bill Spidle.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Dilandu]

Fiction, unfortunately!

Alas!( To be honest, I'm not sure Crusader's variable angle wing could dealt with any kind of additional weight.

 

[Rule of cool]

Depend on type. The Project 159, for example, have 2000 nm range (3800 km), i.e. they could operate in Arafura and Timor seas pretty well.

True, but then they'd be within range of the RAAFs largest combat aircraft fleet - the 4 sqns of Mirages. I think such ships would operate strictly under air cover, which limits their radius of action considerably.

This leaves the Irian (and a sister ship?) and 10 destroyers as the 'blue water' force, although these would be supported by larger frigates, likely beefing up any Task Groups and forming their own Task Group guarding their line of withdrawal closer to home. Such Task Groups would be much less reliant on air support but form a pretty even match for the RAN's blue water fleet of Melbourne, 3 DDGs, 3 Ikara Darings and 6 Rivers.

 

[Dilandu]

This leaves the Irian (and a sister ship?) and 10 destroyers as the 'blue water' force, although these would be supported by larger frigates, likely beefing up any Task Groups and forming their own Task Group guarding their line of withdrawal closer to home. Such Task Groups would be much less reliant on air support but form a pretty even match for the RAN's blue water fleet of Melbourne, 3 DDGs, 3 Ikara Darings and 6 Rivers.

True, quite true! Your calculations are very accurate and reasonable!

 

[Scott Kenny]

Fiction, unfortunately!
I found the 'factual' Chance-Vought drawing of the V-383/F-8 Crusader, with the four-winged hardpoints and Sparrow I's I was thinking of in my copy of Vought F-8 Crusader: Development & Operational use of the Navy's first supersonic jet fighter, by Bill Spidle.

Regards
Pioneer

Okay, so it was actually planned at some point.

And just the USN's fault that it wasn't deployed.

So I stand behind the idea of 2x Sparrows on each outboard wing pylon and fuel tanks on the inboard pylons, plus Sidewinders on the cheeks.

 

[Dilandu]

So I stand behind the idea of 2x Sparrows on each outboard wing pylon and fuel tanks on the inboard pylons, plus Sidewinders on the cheeks.

I'm not sure. Wouldn't it affect the wing mobility?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I'm not sure. Wouldn't it affect the wing mobility?

Shouldn't. Again, plane was designed/intended to have 2 pylons each carrying ~3000lbs. At worst it'd need a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder to push the wing up.

 

[Pioneer]

Shouldn't. Again, plane was designed/intended to have 2 pylons each carrying ~3000lbs. At worst it'd need a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder to push the wing up.

Sorry Dilandu, I have a tendency to agree with the Scott Kenny analogy. I was looking for a photo I just saw the other day of a F-8 on a carriers catapult, armed with what I think was 2,000-pound Mk82 iron bombs. On top of this, I've seen pictures of Crusader's armed with 6 x 500-pound bombs under each wing - granted, this might have been a ground-based USMC Crusader.....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Dilandu]

Sorry Dilandu

Nothing to be sorry about, its a discussion, after all)

have a tendency to agree with the Scott Kenny analogy. I was looking for a photo I just saw the other day of a F-8 on a carriers catapult, armed with what I think was 2,000-pound Mk82 iron bombs. On top of this, I've seen pictures of Crusader's armed with 6 x 500-pound bombs under each wing - granted, this might have been a ground-based USMC Crusader.....

A point!

 

[Volkodav]

The RAAF had both in the 60s, but didn't upgrade the Bloodhounds to Mk2s.

By high performance, I was thinking more Lightning, Draken or Delta Dart. A really hot type able to gain altitude quickly and intercept transonic bombers inbound to Darwin.

 

[Rule of cool]

By high performance, I was thinking more Lightning, Draken or Delta Dart. A really hot type able to gain altitude quickly and intercept transonic bombers inbound to Darwin.

The issue would be timing. The Mirage was selected in 1960, before the Tu16s were delivered. Perhaps if they had the more powerful and fuel efficient Avon they'd be a bit more suitable for the Tu16, but I'd think they'd do the job.

Iraq and Libya got their Tu22s in 1974 or so. Assuming that the RAAF kept the Phantoms in this scenario I think they'd handle the Tu22s, but would be a bit thin on the ground. I think the Tu22 would really drive the Mirage replacement, pushing the RAAF towards an F14 or F15.

 

[Dilandu]

A really hot type able to gain altitude quickly and intercept transonic bombers inbound to Darwin.

Problem is, Indonesian bombers are missile-carrying type. So they could strike from standoff distance (especially with KSR-2/KSR-11 missiles, with 200+ km range)

 

[Scott Kenny]

Problem is, Indonesian bombers are missile-carrying type. So they could strike from standoff distance (especially with KSR-2/KSR-11 missiles, with 200+ km range)

Which suggests flying E2 or E3 AWACS and buying F-14s.

 

[Volkodav]

Problem is, Indonesian bombers are missile-carrying type. So they could strike from standoff distance (especially with KSR-2/KSR-11 missiles, with 200+ km range)

Which completely negates the Bloodhound as well

 

[Rule of cool]

Which completely negates the Bloodhound as well

On the contrary, Bloodhound make the stand off missiles necessary, without them the Tu16 would be able to saunter in and carpet bomb Darwin.

FWIW Egypt fired a mere 25 KSR2s in the high-intensity Yom Kippur war and Iraq used them without much effect on Iranian oil terminals in the 80s. It's far from a panacea.

 

[Volkodav]

The issue would be timing. The Mirage was selected in 1960, before the Tu16s were delivered. Perhaps if they had the more powerful and fuel efficient Avon they'd be a bit more suitable for the Tu16, but I'd think they'd do the job.

Iraq and Libya got their Tu22s in 1974 or so. Assuming that the RAAF kept the Phantoms in this scenario I think they'd handle the Tu22s, but would be a bit thin on the ground. I think the Tu22 would really drive the Mirage replacement, pushing the RAAF towards an F14 or F15.

My thinking, in fact the germ of an idea I had when I ordered my multiple Airfix Lightning kits a decade ago, was that the Mirage and Bloodhound had been selected then the TU16 appeared and there was an oh crap moment.

Please be aware, I'm not trying to devalue what any of you are saying, I am just relating the AH I started developing because I wanted RAAF Lightnings and Drakens

There were flashbacks to Singapore and the Bombing of Darwin, the shortage of modern everything, including combat aircraft, memories of the Meteor in Korea when the MIG 15 appeared. In response an urgent operational requirement was launched for a very high-performance interceptor, a high-performance interceptor capable of being deployed to austere bases and a longer term requirement for the formation of an air defence command (ADC) including a reestablished flying reserve.

A realisation that more needed to be spent on defence, that a point defence interceptor was needed for vital assets, i.e. Darwin and its infrastructure, this would be the Lightning, specifically whichever surplus aircraft the RAF could spare for the RAAF. The Mirage would be skewed to the attack role and an evolved Lightning developed and introduced into service to replace the loaned examples, Australia, potentially takes the lead on the VG Lightning.

At the same time the flying reserve is reintroduced as an integrated force of fulltime, conscript and reserve personnel flying a type capable of being dispersed to austere bases in Australia's north, i.e. Draken.

It goes further, with the ADC eventually having F-14 and E-3, Mirage is optimised for strike and assigned primarily as a tactical support type, and eventually supplemented with either Jaguar or Corsair II, before being replaced with Mirage F1 then 2000.

Yes I have all the kits in my stash and am waiting for my garage redevelopment program for a cat free hobby area.

 

[Dilandu]

Which suggests flying E2 or E3 AWACS and buying F-14s.

Basically yes, albeit it would be... expensive.

Which completely negates the Bloodhound as well

No. As Scott Kenny already explained, Bloodhounds are required to keep Indonesian bombers at distance. The SAMs have much shorter reaction time than fighters, and also could be used to knock the missiles, not only planes.

 

[Dilandu]

It goes further, with the ADC eventually having F-14 and E-3,

The E-3 may be too costly aquisition. Some kind of "light AEW", like E-2, would be much kore affordable. Or, as variant - E-2 hardware fitted on civilian twin-jet plane, to reduce operational costs.

 

[Volkodav]

The E-3 may be too costly aquisition. Some kind of "light AEW", like E-2, would be much kore affordable. Or, as variant - E-2 hardware fitted on civilian twin-jet plane, to reduce operational costs.

A serious contender for AEW in the RAAF was an Orion AEW with E-2 systems. A prototype was even flown in the US using an ex RAAF P-3B

Aircraft Photo of N91LC | Lockheed P-3 AEW&C | Lockheed | AirHistory.net #750342

Aircraft photo of N91LC / 355 - Lockheed P-3 AEW&C - Lockheed, taken by Paul Seymour at Paris - Le Bourget (LFPB / LBG) in France on 5 June 1985 during the Paris Air Show 1985. Being towed through the crowd. Allocated US Navy serial 155299 before delivery to the RAAF as P-3B A9-299 in 1968. To...

www.airhistory.net

 

[Dilandu]

A serious contender for AEW in the RAAF was an Orion AEW with E-2 systems. A prototype was even flown in the US using an ex RAAF P-3B

Quite interesting! Must confess, never head about it!