Soviet Naval Gun Projects

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Some Soviet/Russian developments of the period 1970-2000:

203 mm/55 2A44 "Pion-M", 1970s - naval version of the "Pion" gun. Shell: 110(?)kg, MV: 960m/s. Turrets: single turret.

152mm/54 2A36 "Bombarda", early 1980s - a naval version of the "Hyacinth" gun. Shell: 46(?)kg, MV: 945m/s. Turrets: single turret.

Do you have any more information or images of these proposed naval guns?

 

[Kresta II]

Some Soviet/Russian developments of the period 1970-2000:

203 mm/55 2A44 "Pion-M", 1970s - naval version of the "Pion" gun. Shell: 110(?)kg, MV: 960m/s. Turrets: single turret.

152mm/54 2A36 "Bombarda", early 1980s - a naval version of the "Hyacinth" gun. Shell: 46(?)kg, MV: 945m/s. Turrets: single turret.

Do you have any more information or images of these proposed naval guns?

Unfortunately, I don't have any other data

 

[Sgt_Miller]

Does somebody know something about 305 mm B-23 gun? I found it when I was checking 1940 Soviet heavy tank project "Vladimir Lenin", which was to be armed with a 130 mm B-13 gun or 305 mm B-23 gun, both said to be adopted from naval guns.

 

[Tzoli]

I don't know anything about this 305mm B-23 gun but the 130mm/50 B-13 Pattern 1936 was the standard WW2 Destroyer gun though many designs included it for capital ship DP gun. That 305mm gun would be too large for a tank mounting.
Didn't you misread it for the 305mm/55 B-36 Pattern 1936 or B-50 pattern 1940 guns intended for the Project 25 light battleship and Kronshtadt class battlecruisers.
Can you point to your source?

 

[Dilandu]

don't know anything about this 305mm B-23 gun

If I recall correctly, it was a towed siege howitzer, designed in 1930s, but not comissioned because Tukhachevsky ordered it to be self-propelled (and, well, it went as "good" as any could suspect)

 

[Bottleship]

manufacturing of large guns would have required scratch new infrastructures

The USSR had ready-made equipment and furnaces for the manufacture of 16- and 18-inch guns at the Obukhov plant, which was left over from the Russian Empire. The fleet was one of the favorite toys of Nicholas II. The Obukhov plant, due to overload with army orders, did not have time to complete the production of 16"/45 before the revolution, although according to some reports it produced 16"/52, and the available equipment should have allowed the production of 18"/45 guns. At the same time, this should have been very powerful gun, 1586 kg and 890 mps - muzzle energy is 40% more than that of Japanese 460 mm guns and approximately at the level of 20" guns. In any case, the USSR had this equipment, the Obukhov plant began to be called the Bolshevik plant. In addition, new production lines in Tsaritsyn and Perm were to have the same equipment.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

What was the Project 45 battleship? I've heard of the Project 24 but not of that one.

Was the 457mm/55 caliber the only 457mm gun considered for the Project 24 and other post-WWII battleship designs? I had thought that there had been one with a shorter barrel somewhere in the range of 45 to 50 caliber length.

 

[Tzoli]

Project 45 was among or the last battleship studies of the Soviet navy. They are basically battleship hunters with high speed and high powered guns but limited numbers 1-2 turrets forward either twin 457 or twin and/or triple 406mm guns and 180 or 220mm triple or quad turrets aft for defence against worcesters and Des Moineses, all are new weapons.

Малый линейный корабль проекта ЦНИИ-45 — Global wiki. Wargaming.net

wiki.wargaming.net

 

[Dilandu]

They are basically battleship hunters with high speed and high powered guns

Quite good definition)

 

[Dilandu]

What was the Project 45 battleship? I've heard of the Project 24 but not of that one.

Those were not "project 45" battleship, but CNII-45 battleship project. (CNII - Centralny Nauchno-Issledovatelsky Institut - rus. for Central Scientific Research Institution). I.e. it wasn't naval, but development designation.

Essentially the CNII-45 suggested, that instead of one very big very costly superbattleship like Project 23/24, several smaller ships could be build, carrying the same size armament but with less guns per hull. Basically, they suggested to "divide" one superbattleship between 2-3 smaller units, operating together. While individually, each ship was inferior to full-sized battleship, as a squadron, they surpassed full-sized battleship, especially in durability (damage to one ship would not affect others).

Twenty-one designs of such "small battleships" were prepared. They were armed with different combinations of 406-457-mm turrets (like one triple 406-mm turret per ship, or two twin 406-mm superfiring turrets, or one twin and one triple 406-mm turrets, or one dual 457-mm turret, ect.). It was hoped that progress in fire control systems - especially in data exchange between ships - would allow several small battleships to fire at one target as efficiently, as one big battleship could do. Since 1-2 big gun turret weren't enough for self-defense, it was also assumed that small battleships would carry intermediate armament in terms of 180-mm or 220-mm guns. Armor was limited, air defense mainly in terms of short-range autocannons (it was assumed that such ships would be protected from air attacks by cruisers and destroyers with DP cannons).


Variant with one (bow) dual 406-mm turret and one (rear) quad 220-mm turret.



Variant with superfiring bow dual and triple 406-mm turrets and stern 180-mm quad turret.

Essentially, the project fell through, because the small battleship simply could not be made "small enough". Even the most limited designs still assumed the 30.000-ton ship, costly and lenghty to construct. The gain was not good enough. Navy didn't like them also, arguing that they are limited and overcomplicated. So, after Stalin death, the whole project was quietly abandoned.

 

[ceccherini]

manufacturing of large guns would have required scratch new infrastructures

The USSR had ready-made equipment and furnaces for the manufacture of 16- and 18-inch guns at the Obukhov plant, which was left over from the Russian Empire. The fleet was one of the favorite toys of Nicholas II. The Obukhov plant, due to overload with army orders, did not have time to complete the production of 16"/45 before the revolution, although according to some reports it produced 16"/52, and the available equipment should have allowed the production of 18"/45 guns. At the same time, this should have been very powerful gun, 1586 kg and 890 mps - muzzle energy is 40% more than that of Japanese 460 mm guns and approximately at the level of 20" guns. In any case, the USSR had this equipment, the Obukhov plant began to be called the Bolshevik plant. In addition, new production lines in Tsaritsyn and Perm were to have the same equipment.

Both the know how and most of the equipment associated with large gun development and production were lost after the revolution and had to be recreated from the ground up

 

[Dilandu]

Both the know how and most of the equipment associated with large gun development and production were lost after the revolution and had to be recreated from the ground up

Obukhovsky plant was not seriously affected by Revolution. It was in Petrograd/Leningrad, under firm control of Bolsheviks. There were no fighting here.

It was simply the fact that heavy naval artillery was NOT the first priority of Bolsheviks in 1920s. The Obukhov plant -renamed "Bolshevik" - was used to produce much more desperatedly needed agricultural engines, trucks, later tanks for Red Army. By the time when USSR started to get interested in naval matters again, in 1930s, a lot of equipment was re-purposed or simply worn out.

 

[Kresta II]

Does somebody know something about 305 mm B-23 gun? I found it when I was checking 1940 Soviet heavy tank project "Vladimir Lenin", which was to be armed with a 130 mm B-13 gun or 305 mm B-23 gun, both said to be adopted from naval guns.

B-23 was the general name of the artillery component of the project of the superheavy self-propelled 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer/400-mm mortar (later - only 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer) SAU-7, developed in 1932-37. Only a prototype cannon and howitzer was produced.

 

[Tzoli]

apparently the 203mm gun/howitzer was designated B-4:

Uralmash-1 - SU-14 / SU-102

www.globalsecurity.org

203 mm howitzer M1931 (B-4) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tzoli]

By the way what are the A- B- Br- BS- D- F- M- ML- -K etc
designations stands for?
I thought B was for naval armament and -K was AA or AA/AT.

 

[Kresta II]

apparently the 203mm gun/howitzer was designated B-4:

Uralmash-1 - SU-14 / SU-102

www.globalsecurity.org

203 mm howitzer M1931 (B-4) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The towed B-4 howitzer and the SU-14 self-propelled system with the 152-mm Br-2 gun/203-mm B-4 howitzer were much lighter than the SAU-7. The estimated weight of the SAU-7 is 102-106 tons (depending on the installation of the gun or howitzer), where the weight of the 203-mm gun B-23 is 39 tons (shells 120 kg and 180 kg, range 33 km and 27 km) and the weight of a 305-mm howitzer with the same designation is 43 tons (shells 650 kg and 355 kg, range 15.4 km and 23.6 km).

 

[Kresta II]

By the way what are the A- B- Br- BS- D- F- M- ML- -K etc
designations stands for?
I thought B was for naval armament and -K was AA or AA/AT.

The Soviet system of designation of guns is quite complex and sometimes illogical. In most cases, these are factory designations assigned to the development of design bureaus. For example, "B" is the index of systems of the "Bolshevik" plant, "Br" is the index of systems of the "Barricades" plant, etc.

 

[Bottleship]

About Soviet 80s 16" non-turret smooth bore gun, with different projectiles - guided anti-ship and anti-air rockets, anti-submarine bombs, and other:

Проект 406-мм пушки — пусковой установки. Советский ракетный крейсер. Зигзаги эволюции

military.wikireading.ru

406-мм универсальное орудие | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум

militaryrussia.ru

 

[isayyo2]

About Soviet 80s 16" non-turret smooth bore gun, with different projectiles - guided anti-ship and anti-air rockets, anti-submarine bombs, and other:

Проект 406-мм пушки — пусковой установки. Советский ракетный крейсер. Зигзаги эволюции

military.wikireading.ru

406-мм универсальное орудие | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум

militaryrussia.ru

Some stats of the gun, translated. Pretty impressive I'd say!

Barrel length - 6500 mm (16 calibers)
The height of the muzzle cut unit in the marching position is 4900 mm
Diameter of the deck compartment - 4000 mm
Vertical guidance angle - from +30 to +90 degrees.
The horizontal guidance angle is 340 degrees.
Installation weight:
- 60 t (with a 2-tier cellar)
- 32 tons (with 1 tiering cellar)
The weight of the swinging part of the unit is 18 t

Range of action:
- 250 km (guided missiles)
- 42 km (shell weighing 110 kg)
- 10 km (shell weighing 120 kg)
Rate of Fire:
- 15-20 rpm (shells)
- 10 rpm (missiles)
The time to change the type of ammunition is 4 seconds.

Application: all types of ships with a displacement of more than 2000 tons.

 

[Nik]

Could the '45 proposal's demise be due to combination of 'Yamato' demise and nukes ??

Too-big juicy target...

 

[Dilandu]

Could the '45 proposal's demise be due to combination of 'Yamato' demise and nukes ??

Too-big juicy target...

Not exactly. You see, Stalin was probably the last staunch admirer of big gun ships in the position of power. Even in early 1950s he was firmly convinced, that battleships and superheavy cruisers are still the backbone of the navy - at least, in coastal seas. The naval command was much more skeptical, and eventually managed to persuade Stalin, that battleship, designed to be "overwhelmingly superior to Iowa-class" would be impractically big and costly. Stalin relented here, but still insisted on building Project 82 heavy crusers, arguing that they would be needed to counter superior numbers of Western cruisers.

 

[Sgt_Miller]

B-23 was the general name of the artillery component of the project of the superheavy self-propelled 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer/400-mm mortar (later - only 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer) SAU-7, developed in 1932-37. Only a prototype cannon and howitzer was produced.

So it isn't a naval gun from the beginning? Indeed the B-XX designation makes it sounds like a naval gun. I'm confused by the designation.

 

[Kresta II]

B-23 was the general name of the artillery component of the project of the superheavy self-propelled 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer/400-mm mortar (later - only 203-mm cannon/305-mm howitzer) SAU-7, developed in 1932-37. Only a prototype cannon and howitzer was produced.

So it isn't a naval gun from the beginning? Indeed the B-XX designation makes it sounds like a naval gun. I'm confused by the designation.

No, it's a heavy land siege cannon and a howitzer. The abbreviation "B" was assigned to artillery and other projects that were developed by the design bureau of the "Bolshevik" plant (the former Obukhov plant). Among these projects there were many naval guns, but there were also heavy land guns (the most famous is the B-4 heavy howitzer).

 

[Enola_Straight]

The soviets also developed 152 mm dual purpose guns which were, I believe, based on 152 mm /57 B-38. The guns (or maybe the mounts, I'm not entirely sure) were called BL-115 and BL-118. Here's what I managed to find regarding their characteristics

 

[Tzoli]

The soviets also developed 152 mm dual purpose guns which were, I believe, based on 152 mm /57 B-38. The guns (or maybe the mounts, I'm not entirely sure) were called BL-115 and BL-118. Here's what I managed to find regarding their characteristics

The Mounts were called BL-115 and 118, intended for the Stalingrads and post-war cruiser projects

 

[любитель военных кораблей]

Линейные корабли типа Советский Союз — история создания и службы линкоров СССР

Линейные корабли типа Советский Союз — история создания линкоров проекта 23, технические характеристики, вооружение и фото. Подробная информация о кораблях на wiki.wargaming.net

wiki.lesta.ru

this is technical specification for Soviet battleships

 

[Scott Kenny]

New 406mm cannon or further increase the Muzzle Velocity of the B-37 Pattern 1937 cannon reducing its already shorter barrel life?

Interesting that the Soviets went to higher MV when the USN went with heavier shells at lower MV to improve armor penetration.

 

[Dilandu]

Interesting that the Soviets went to higher MV when the USN went with heavier shells at lower MV to improve armor penetration

Soviet naval architecture was seriously affected by Italian school, which favored muzzle velocity over shell weight.

 

[Jaisheelal400]

A 406mm, 6.5m barrel (i.e. a 16"/16 weapon) smoothbore gun system intended for installation aboard ships of 2,000t displacement and upwards, apparently designed beginning in late 1983.
Incredibly, it seems to have been intended as a dual purpose gun in the traditional sense, meant to engage both surface and air targets.
A minimum elevation of +30 degrees allowed for the trunnion to sit 500mm below the deck, and to dispense with the turret altogether. The result is somewhat similar in principle (as far as I can tell) to the British Mark 10 Limbo mortar.
Balancing was hydraulic and it was to have been breech-loaded at 90 degrees elevation, with the rammer and ammunition in a fairly traditionally-arranged barbette.
Specifications were as follows:
Barrel length - 6500 mm (16 calibres)
Muzzle mounting height in stowed position - 4900 mm
Underdeck compartment diameter - 4000 mm
Elevation - from +30 to +90 degrees
Traversing arc - 340 degrees.
- 60 tons (with a 2-deck barbette)
- 32 tons (with a single-deck barbette)
Weight of the oscillating part of the unit - 18 tons

Range:
- 250 km (guided missiles)
- 42 km (projectile weighing 110 kg)
- 10 km (projectile weighing 120 kg)
Rate of fire:
- 15-20 rds/min (shells)
- 10 rds/min (rockets)
Time to switch ammunition types - 4 seconds.

I apologise if this has been posted before - I did attempt to look. (edit: just read up like four messages and I can't believe my eyes)

 

[Brickmuppet]

A 406mm, 6.5m barrel (i.e. a 16"/16 weapon) smoothbore gun system intended for installation aboard ships of 2,000t displacement and upwards, apparently designed beginning in late 1983.
Incredibly, it seems to have been intended as a dual purpose gun in the traditional sense, meant to engage both surface and air targets.
A minimum elevation of +30 degrees allowed for the trunnion to sit 500mm below the deck, and to dispense with the turret altogether. The result is somewhat similar in principle (as far as I can tell) to the British Mark 10 Limbo mortar.
Balancing was hydraulic and it was to have been breech-loaded at 90 degrees elevation, with the rammer and ammunition in a fairly traditionally-arranged barbette.
Specifications were as follows:
Barrel length - 6500 mm (16 calibres)
Muzzle mounting height in stowed position - 4900 mm
Underdeck compartment diameter - 4000 mm
Elevation - from +30 to +90 degrees
Traversing arc - 340 degrees.
- 60 tons (with a 2-deck barbette)
- 32 tons (with a single-deck barbette)
Weight of the oscillating part of the unit - 18 tons

Range:
- 250 km (guided missiles)
- 42 km (projectile weighing 110 kg)
- 10 km (projectile weighing 120 kg)
Rate of fire:
- 15-20 rds/min (shells)
- 10 rds/min (rockets)
Time to switch ammunition types - 4 seconds.

That seems like remarkably light projectiles for a 406mm weapon.

 

[Ainen]

Soviet naval architecture was seriously affected by Italian school, which favored muzzle velocity over shell weight.

While true, it's more complicated than that.

Italian APC design (very high speed/high weight) was also the densest, as dense or even more so than US superheavy.

Soviet shells, like Russian ones, kept huge cavities of their imperial predecessors. I.e. while guns developed similarly towards extreme pressures, shells(and gunnery practices) were completely different.
Between wars, Italy (and US) did "reversals" in their shell/gun pairs, as per their respective understanding how to better exploit advancements in metallurgy, fire control and tactics.
Soviet Union tried to launch same oversized shells as fast as possible. It was not a reversal, more of tech optimism.
As one could've expected, it took a while to figure out.

Moreover, this preference survived "German touch", too, and to the degree applicable (Russian 130 DP gun lineage is more or less uninterrupted since before ww1) survives to this day.

 

[Scott Kenny]

That seems like remarkably light projectiles for a 406mm weapon.

More like unbelievably light. 110-120kg is an order of magnitude lighter than US battleship ammo.

 

[Tzoli]

Check the barrel length and 10km range with such light shells imply low muzzle velocity

 

[Scott Kenny]

Check the barrel length and 10km range with such light shells imply low muzzle velocity

L16 barrel alone implies low MV.

 

[TomS]

Check the barrel length and 10km range with such light shells imply low muzzle velocity

This looks like a mortar, but the shell weight is exceptional low even for that. It's similar to the big Russian 240mm mortars, despite being twice the diameter.