South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Apophenia]

Great photos!

My guess would be that the objects in question are spaced-armour 'fillers' between the turret-side and turret-rear add-on composite armour panels. If true ... the bottom image shows a near-triangular section while the top images seems to show a more rhomboid section.

 

[Strannix123]

Great photos!

My guess would be that the objects in question are spaced-armour 'fillers' between the turret-side and turret-rear add-on composite armour panels. If true ... the bottom image shows a near-triangular section while the top images seems to show a more rhomboid section.

That's quite possible. I was quite curious since in the top images it appears as if the panel that the spare tracks are mounted to extends further out whereas on the bottom that space seems to be filled with a removable section.

I wonder if it's simply a case of different batches that resulted in the difference.

 

[Apophenia]

That's quite possible. I was quite curious since in the top images it appears as if the panel that the spare tracks are mounted to extends further out whereas on the bottom that space seems to be filled with a removable section.

I wonder if it's simply a case of different batches that resulted in the difference.

That makes sense. If the rear section in the top photo does extend further out, the 'fillers' would need to be of different shapes or sizes.

 

[Strannix123]

That makes sense. If the rear section in the top photo does extend further out, the 'fillers' would need to be of different shapes or sizes.

This photo might show it a bit better.



Edit:

This photo is from the Hobby Boss scale model. It's unfortunately the best angle I can get of the second variation at the moment but it does convey the difference quite well.

 

[Strannix123]

On the topic of the Olifant, does any one know anything about a Mk.1B nicknamed "Corbadus" that was used to test experimental "yellow" roadwheels?

I'll attach a photo from Dewald Venter's Africa @ War: South African Armoured Vehicles.

Other than the image and it's associated infobox in this book, I've not been able to find any other information.

I'd assume the yellow roadwheels are a form of the Allthane compost wheels previously discussed in this thread but I'm hoping someone could either confirm or deny.

If someone also has a coloured version of this photo that would also be great.

 

[kaiserbill]

I would assume it's those Althane composite replacement wheels that Graugrun posted about earlier in the thread too.

 

[kaiserbill]

Some more pics of one of the 8x8 Ratel Log prototypes (the XDM), including one in the field with vanilla Ratel 6x6's.

 

[apparition13]

Some more pics of one of the 8x8 Ratel Log prototypes (the XDM), including one in the field with vanilla Ratel 6x6's.

Shame it never went into production. Were the 8x8 version of the AC-200 (and 100?) envisioned as taking on the logistics role this was meant to as well?

 

[Graugrun]

Shame it never went into production. Were the 8x8 version of the AC-200 (and 100?) envisioned as taking on the logistics role this was meant to as well?

Yes, most likely - they were meant to be the new generation of vehicles to replace the Ratel series. I've posted some brochures of AC-100 and 200 somewhere in this thread, I'm sure they showed options for Log variants.

 

[Graugrun]

Milkor showcases new vehicles at AAD 2024​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/milkor-showcases-new-vehicles-at-aad-2024/

 

[GTX]

South Africa's homegrown Olifant Mk2 tank takes center stage at AAD 2024

South Africa's homegrown Olifant Mk2 tank takes center stage at AAD 2024

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Graugrun]

Like I've stated before - these days you have to refer to foreign companies to see and get updates on the latest South African vehicle developments and upgrades. Here's some of the RG-35's latest upgrades (obviously done by mostly, if not all of a South African engineering team..).

 

[Graugrun]

Just a little more on the Ratel SLEP program..

Cost-effective Life-extension and Improvement of Ratel IFV​

https://www.military.africa/2024/09/cost-effective-life-extension-and-improvement-of-ratel-ifv/

 

[jpa58]

That sounds like a great topic to explore! The Bosbok is super interesting—it's wild how they repurposed the M3 to create something new. I remember reading about how modifications like that can lead to major innovations, like the Ratel. It’s always fun to discover those lesser-known prototypes. If you have any cool pics or stories about other vehicles, I’d love to see them!

 

[snne]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/new...elled-mortar-armed-with-aselsans-alkar-system

 

[stimpy75]

Mechem Krokodil

 

[kaiserbill]

Mechem Krokodil

A few more.

 

[kaiserbill]

Another couple, with one showing how low-profile this vehicle actually was.

 

[kaiserbill]

This one was posted earlier in the thread.
Does anyone know anything further about the Gator which is clearly an 8x8 Krokodil?

Is this a model or a prototype?
It looks like a built vehicle to me.

 

[Graugrun]

Brochure for the TAC-6 range.

 

[Tim_TeaDrinker]

Hello everyone.

I want to ask:
Does anyone know about modification Ratel ZT3A1 to ZT3A2 standard?
Especially does new aiming sights have a stabilizer?

Preferably with confirmation from any source.

ZT3A1

ZT3A2

 

[BBBBBBRRR]

@Mech - Attached is from a Reutech brochure (I may have posted this before..?), see the bottom pic. I have also seen a CAD scan from a Gennan company brochure that is exactly the same as your first pic (T-54/55) with the very angled armour - at top left. If I find it again, I'll post it too.

It's been briefly discussed earlier in the thread but does anybody happen to have any more info about the 4 prototypes in the attached pic? I've also attached the brochure that Graugrun provided earlier.

Any info about the Olifant/Centurion in particular would be massively appreciated.




A

 

[kaiserbill]

I think we all would like to know more, and see further pics.
Those armour upgrades came as a surprise to me personally.

 

[kaiserbill]

A post on the SA armour museum Facebook page confirms that the unmanned Rooikat turret was indeed designed to take a 120mm as well as s 105mm gun.

 

[kaiserbill]

I'm beginning to suspect I've solved a mystery...that hasn't been picked up before in any published literature, printed or Internet.

I think the T-55 tanks are prototypes or proof of concepts for a foreign customer...
I believe this would then be handed over to that foreign customer for local production.
They probably chose the cheaper, more basic option (first one) that better suited their industrial capability.

The first T-55 is clearly in the same complex as the second T-55. The second T-55 is clearly in the Reutech brochure..but only the second one..
Why is that?
Because the concept of the first was to be handed over to the foreign customer without acknowledgement.

It's quite the Enigma...

 

[kaiserbill]

Below is the Iraqi Enigma tank.

Compare it to the first tank, top left, in the 3rd pic.

 

[kaiserbill]

All literature about the Enigma questions its providence.
Buried in one or two reports I've seen, an interviewee involved states that they (Iraq) got foreign assistance with the concept.

The first Enigma vehicle unveiled in Iraq didn't have the rear turret counterweight.
Less than 10 vehicles were produced, with varying degrees of workmanship.
In fact, upon inspection in the West, it was noted that whilst the layout was sophisticated, the workmanship (welding etc) was poor.
The amour was a sandwich of steel alloys and rubber, and whilst not at the leading edge of composite armour at the time, it was noted that combat reports stated one Enigma shrugged off multiple Milan ATGW hits.

In the late 80's, South Africa was selling Iraq G5 artillery pieces, precisely at the same time (circa 1988) the Enigma was being handbuilt in Iraq.

At the time, Iraqi economy had been devastated by its long war with Iran.

IF this speculation is correct, I think a prototype or concept demonstrator was developed in South Africa, mainly to a severe Iraqi cost requirement.
This featured no engine, armament, or fire control upgrades. It solely looked at an armour array. And not even a particularly sophisticated one.
South Africa at the time had its own advanced composite armour (see brochure by Graugrun on the TTD armour composition infil earlier in thread) but I seriously doubt they would compromise that in a sale to Iraq whilst actively being in combat in Angola.

I suspect a rather more basic composition....one that reflected Iraqs budget and technology limitations.
I suspect it was then handed over, as an indigenous project and the Iraqis built the few they did as resources allowed, making changes as they did, particularly in how the armour was fixed to the hull.
Poor welds are also NOT a feature on SA armoured vehicles.

The above is pure speculation on my part, and I might be wrong, but there are the pictures above...
Thoughts?
Criticisms?

 

[kaiserbill]

@Mech - Attached is from a Reutech brochure (I may have posted this before..?), see the bottom pic. I have also seen a CAD scan from a Gennan company brochure that is exactly the same as your first pic (T-54/55) with the very angled armour - at top left. If I find it again, I'll post it too.

@Graugrun It would be interesting if you could find that.
I wonder where @Mech got the pic of those armour upgrades?

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

It's certainly a plausible theory, and it would definitely fill in some gaps in our knowledge regarding South African and Iraqi tank development for that period. I wonder if that prototype array is still around?

 

[Graugrun]

Somehow I completely missed this one at AAD 2024.. Looks like it could even be a compeditor to the Ratel upgrade 'project'..

Jorsin launches new Tau 4×4 armoured personnel carrier​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/editors-pick/jorsin-launches-new-tau-4x4-armoured-personnel-carrier/

 

[kaiserbill]

Nice.
But I doubt anything 4x4 is going to replace the 6x6 Ratel.
In fact, after a slew of 6x6 replacement projects, any Ratel replacement went firmly the 8x8 route.
It's also more lightly armoured than the Ratel, which is natural seeing as it is only half the Ratels weight.
Still, it looks like a very interesting vehicle, particularly seeing as the Casspir was used as a de facto IFV during much of its life, including being fitted with automatic weapons up to 20mm cannon.
This looks far more capable in the IFV role than the Casspir due to its turret capability.

Edit: @Graugrun did you ever find that Gennan brochure dealing with that T55 armour upgrade discussed above?

 

[BBBBBBRRR]

@Graugrun It would be interesting if you could find that.
I wonder where @Mech got the pic of those armour upgrades?

They are from Armscor.co.za before it got taken down.

This and this are are two most intact versions of the website on the wayback machine, but the only picture that survived is the T-55.

 

[Graugrun]

Nice.
But I doubt anything 4x4 is going to replace the 6x6 Ratel.
In fact, after a slew of 6x6 replacement projects, any Ratel replacement went firmly the 8x8 route.
It's also more lightly armoured than the Ratel, which is natural seeing as it is only half the Ratels weight.
Still, it looks like a very interesting vehicle, particularly seeing as the Casspir was used as a de facto IFV during much of its life, including being fitted with automatic weapons up to 20mm cannon.
This looks far more capable in the IFV role than the Casspir due to its turret capability.

Edit: @Graugrun did you ever find that Gennan brochure dealing with that T55 armour upgrade discussed above?

I agree with what you are saying - I'm just thinking of costs, the ANC government has stolen, corrupted and sqandered all the money away, so if we do ever get a Ratel replacement, it might end up as something like this..

In terms of the above 'Enigma' scenario, I don't doubt that all and any versions depicted above are South African designs - all roads seem to lead back to us. Some of the above were designs carried on by (ex?) Armscor/South African teams working in (or in collaberation with the) Jordan for the King Abdullah Military Industries (or something like that).

I took a while to reply as I was hoping to find the oldGennan brochure, which included a CAD drawing of a variant that looked very similar to BBBBBBRRR's first pic in post #2062, and your first two pics in post #2066. No luck yet - but I'll post it as soon as I find it.

Bottom line is that I cannot find reference to any other source of these modifications from anywhere else, except those that lead back to South Africa directly or indirectly....