South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Yup. I live in the Netherlands and they just sent it up here; no problem. Took a while to come, and quite a lot of postage though. I have ordered books through them in the past. Curious that you are having difficulties.

I currently am based in Ireland.
Perhaps I'll try again.
There are over 1000 pages in those 2 volumes.
You say it's definitely worth it?
I am particularly interested in the development of the Ratel...early and latter stages.
Is there much information in there about how they arrived at the design, and which other vehicles were looked at? We know from this thread (reply 1346) that the Urutu was looked at, and is still on display in Bloemfontein.
Is there any info on versions looked at that didn't make it to hardware stage?

 

[nester_ulrich_dalgrin]

So i am a bit of a Lurker here and i have been trying to find some info on the Suspension that the Olifant Mk.1b and Mk.2 use. I have read that it is a torsion bar system but have not been able to find any concrete evidence of that and was wondering if somebody here who knows more then i do could help?

Pictures are also nice as well

These pics of the Olifant Mk2 might answer your question to some degree... As an aside...Note that the road wheels themselves are an updated version of the Althane composite wheel and if they are the full composite wheel (I suspect that they are), then they save about a 1 Ton weight off of the tank's total weight...

Thank you sir this helps me quite alot.

 

[Herman]

] am particularly interested in the development of the Ratel...early and latter stages

The development is discussed in detail. I wrote an "article" on this forum several years ago about the various vehicles that had been evaluated and, in essence, I had it by the right end. Much more detail is recounted in these volumes however: test results etc., and the personnel involved.

The SA Army decided in the late sixties that they needed a wheeled ICV and the specifications were drawn up. The essence was that they wanted a vehicle which could carry an infantry section, and a two-man turret. Nothing of the required size was available at that time, in the West. In 1971, a team of SADF officers and ARMSCOR people visited several places in Europe (France, Germany, Switzerland and Portugal) to see what was available. One of the companies they visited at that time was Büssing, because the company was at that time developing a 6x6 APC. Büssing then built a prototype, apparently not pecifically for the SA requirement but as a commercial venture, and shipped it to SA, in 1972. It is a really interesting read. Lots of pictures and illustrations as well.

 

[Graugrun]

Just a nice pic I found of the OKAPI vehicle - another interesting vehicle can be seen in the background, whose name escapes me at the moment...

 

[kaiserbill]

Hi Graugrun
That looks like the prototype of the APC based on the Mfezi platform.
It can be seen in replies 1281 and 1602, with technical data sheets attached.
Apparently there were 3 or 4 vehicle types looked at on this platform: Mfezi ambulance, Tapir weapons carrier for the Recce special forces, and this APC prototype. There was talk also of a 6x6 platform.
The Mfezi platform was highly rated for it's all round capabilities, being popular with its users, so this was a missed opportunity IMHO.
Edit: note the ability to be reconfigured with a turret or hatch.

 

[Graugrun]

Hi Graugrun
That looks like the prototype of the APC based on the Mfezi platform.
It can be seen in replies 1281 and 1602, with technical data sheets attached.
Apparently there were 3 or 4 vehicle types looked at on this platform: Mfezi ambulance, Tapir weapons carrier for the Recce special forces, and this APC prototype. There was talk also of a 6x6 platform.
The Mfezi platform was highly rated for it's all round capabilities, being popular with its users, so this was a missed opportunity IMHO.
Edit: note the ability to be reconfigured with a turret or hatch.

Thanks for that input Kaisebill - Yes there were a couple of vehicles that could have been further developed if funding hadn't dried up... Most of the next Marks/versions of our Mine Resistant vehicles ended up as the so called "new" American/British MRAPS...

Some more pics of OKAPI during various trials that I can add to the one above...

 

[Johanndelange]

What is it, on top of the arm? As the title of the picture is "ground shout" could it be some sort of loud speaker system?

Hello
It was indeed a loud speaker system.
It was used late 1988 and early 1989 by comm ops at 101 batallion in Ondangwa.
The main use was to communicate the current peace negotiation to the public.
There was a local interpreter and SADF personnel sent around to garner support for the democratic party in SWA.
The aim was to ensure that the communist support was overtaken.

 

[Graugrun]

The OTT re-manufactured and re-configured SAMIL 20 - being a type of Rapid Force/Special Forces attack and long range vehicle(?). I have some nice pics of it being tested (at Gerotek?) that I still need to dig up and post...

 

[kaiserbill]

Tank Technology Demonstrator.
A closer look, including inside the hull, sub-components, basic cutaway, engine..etc

View: https://youtu.be/y7eHvjfkdH8

 

[kaiserbill]

A picture of the large 8x8 Bismarck prototype that, for the first time that I am aware of, shows the rear of the turret.

 

[kaiserbill]

What we can see is that the TTD turret and the Bismark turret are not the same, apart from some cosmetic similarities from some angles.
I seem to recall it mentioned that the original Bismark turret had been destroyed in testing.
There was a picture earlier in this thread of a turret prototype that exists at the armour museum in Bloemfontein. This turret is slabsided like the TTD and Bismark turret.
Does anyone have any further pics of that turret on display?

 

[monochromelody]

Heard of Olifant Mk.2 uses turret basket storage box as bathtub.
Is there any real application of this function?

 

[kaiserbill]

A clearer pic of the one off prototype Ratel fitted with a 35mm gun. The best pic so far, I think.
It appears it's based on the Ratel 90 turret base, with some differences.

 

[Herman]

I wonder what happenend to it? Was it a mock up or could it shoot? If it could actually shoot, I wonder how the loading system worked? Belt-fed? Clip-fed? It is no mean feat shoeing a 35mm automatic cannon into a turret the size of that on the Ratel.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Hi to all
One question
I known that the Olifant 2 turret, you have the posibility of chose 105mm or 120mm smoothbore gun
Some one knows if the Olifant 1B can handle a 120mm gun (the Gt-9 or new new like the RUAG 120/50LCTG9?
thanks

 

[kaiserbill]

I'm not actually sure.
I have seen it stated that the Mk1b could be fitted with either the 105mm GT8, or 120mm GT9, but information is lacking about whether the GT9 was actually ever fitted.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Olifant Mk1b, whilst being a radical upgrade, was an upgrade designed to fill in the gap before the operational version of the new TTD tank was fielded in numbers.
As such, one might have anticipated an original operational lifespan of the Mk1b to have been originally about 10-15 years, before being relegated progressively to training as the TTD replaced it.

The idea though was that the tank force (Mk1b) was equipped with a 105mm, as that was sufficient at that time. However, South Africa was keenly aware that the introduction of later tank designs could be swiftly introduced relatively rapidly by the Soviets. This was stated numerous times, and is why the T-72 tank was procured for testing.
Thus, it makes sense that the Mk1b could take a 120mm gun. This is sort of confirmed by the fact that the Olifant MK2 was announced as being able to take the 120mm gun. The MK2 is simply an updated Mk1b, so logic tells us it was.
Logic also tells us that working on 120mm guns (for tank and Rooikat fitment), as well as 140mm for the TTD means that future needs were being catered for.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I'm not actually sure.
I have seen it stated that the Mk1b could be fitted with either the 105mm GT8, or 120mm GT9, but information is lacking about whether the GT9 was actually ever fitted.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Olifant Mk1b, whilst being a radical upgrade, was an upgrade designed to fill in the gap before the operational version of the new TTD tank was fielded in numbers.
As such, one might have anticipated an original operational lifespan of the Mk1b to have been originally about 10-15 years, before being relegated progressively to training as the TTD replaced it.

The idea though was that the tank force (Mk1b) was equipped with a 105mm, as that was sufficient at that time. However, South Africa was keenly aware that the introduction of later tank designs could be swiftly introduced relatively rapidly by the Soviets. This was stated numerous times, and is why the T-72 tank was procured for testing.
Thus, it makes sense that the Mk1b could take a 120mm gun. This is sort of confirmed by the fact that the Olifant MK2 was announced as being able to take the 120mm gun. The MK2 is simply an updated Mk1b, so logic tells us it was.
Logic also tells us that working on 120mm guns (for tank and Rooikat fitment), as well as 140mm for the TTD means that future needs were being catered for.

Thanks for the reply

 

[kaiserbill]

Going over the tank guns from SA again, from what I can gather:

-The GT6 was a 120mm weapon, upgradable to 140mm, for the new TTD tank.
-The GT9 was a 120mm developed for the Olifant Mk1b future upgrades.
-The GT12 was a 120mm design with recoil features designed for the Rooikat.

These were developed for the need when the inevitable introduction (had the Cold War continued) of newer Soviet tanks in theatre happened

So I guess that answers the question as an affirmative.

 

[kaiserbill]

Speaking of the GT6, apparently it was designed in two versions.
A "small block" for the 120mm, and a "big block" for 140mm.
There were also apparently "2 TTD's" built.
I suspect that one was the mobility test rig seen earlier in the thread, and the 2nd is the prototype example which is usually seen and which is at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein.

 

[kaiserbill]

The following picture is of the mystery tank turret at The Armour Museum Bloemfontein. It was posted a couple of years back on this thread. It was assumed to be a turret used in the TTD Tank, or possibly the Bismarck 8x8 heavy armoured car. It has bugged me for a while.

But I have a theory, having looked at it carefully.

I think it is related to the Olifant Optimal.
Look at the side bottom lines of the turret, the cutaway on top of the turret, the thick steel bush guard behind the cutaway, the cuppola design, and the lifting eyes on the turret roof, the sight position...

Different to a normal Olifant Mk1b, MK2, TTD, and Bismarck turrets.
But very, very similar to the Olifant Optimal turret.

Now, if this is the case, and I am convinced, it raises a question, but also answers a discussion between Abraham Gubler and JFC Fuller a while back.
The Optimal prototype with its turret is still in existence, at the same museum. It clearly has an original Centurion turret beneath the add on armour.
Yet JFC Fuller stated he had heard or read (as have I) that the Optimal turret is a new turret. Statements were also made that the Optimal turret could be fitted as an upgrade to other hulls, such as Chieftain/Challenger etc.
Abe Gubler correctly pointed out the existing Centurion turret which can be seen below the new armour.

What if both were correct?
This turret is obviously a new build, as there was another photo kicking about of its interior....whilst the existing running prototype is clearly a modified existing turret.
I strongly think this is an Optimal turret, but newly built, or a test turret. Without the modular armour packages. I stand under correction though..

Thoughts?
Critiques?

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The following picture is of the mystery tank turret at The Armour Museum Bloemfontein. It was posted a couple of years back on this thread. It was assumed to be a turret used in the TTD Tank, or possibly the Bismarck 8x8 heavy armoured car. It has bugged me for a while.

But I have a theory, having looked at it carefully.

I think it is related to the Olifant Optimal.
Look at the side bottom lines of the turret, the cutaway on top of the turret, the thick steel bush guard behind the cutaway, the cuppola design, and the lifting eyes on the turret roof, the sight position...

Different to a normal Olifant Mk1b, MK2, TTD, and Bismarck turrets.
But very, very similar to the Olifant Optimal turret.

Now, if this is the case, and I am convinced, it raises a question, but also answers a discussion between Abraham Gubler and JFC Fuller a while back.
The Optimal prototype with its turret is still in existence, at the same museum. It clearly has an original Centurion turret beneath the add on armour.
Yet JFC Fuller stated he had heard or read (as have I) that the Optimal turret is a new turret. Statements were also made that the Optimal turret could be fitted as an upgrade to other hulls, such as Chieftain/Challenger etc.
Abe Gubler correctly pointed out the existing Centurion turret which can be seen below the new armour.

What if both were correct?
This turret is obviously a new build, as there was another photo kicking about of its interior....whilst the existing running prototype is clearly a modified existing turret.
I strongly think this is an Optimal turret, but newly built, or a test turret. Without the modular armour packages. I stand under correction though..

Thoughts?
Critiques?

Kaiserbill
The photos 2,3 and 4 are the Olifant 1B Optimun.? is the same that you refer as Optimal

 

[kaiserbill]

Yes.
It has been described as the Olifant Optimal, and less regularly as the Optimum.
As the name implies, it was designed as the optimal or optimum Olifant, after or following on from the Mk1b.
Also described as the original Olifant MK2, as opposed to the eventual MK2 we see nowdays, which is a Mk1b with more powerful engine and updated sights/fire control.
It was heavier than the 58t Mk1b...weighing in at 60t+.

The Mk1b was to be replaced by the TTD. The Optimal and MK2 seem to have come about when the TTD was cancelled at the ending of the Cold War.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Yes.
It has been described as the Olifant Optimal, and less regularly as the Optimum.
As the name implies, it was designed as the optimal or optimum Olifant, after or following on from the Mk1b.
Also described as the original Olifant MK2, as opposed to the eventual MK2 we see nowdays, which is a Mk1b with more powerful engine and updated sights/fire control.
It was heavier than the 58t Mk1b...weighing in at 60t+.

The Mk1b was to be replaced by the TTD. The Optimal and MK2 seem to have come about when the TTD was cancelled at the ending of the Cold War.

Thank again
its very interesting what you say about and i quote: "Yet JFC Fuller stated he had heard or read (as have I) that the Optimal turret is a new turret. Statements were also made that the Optimal turret could be fitted as an upgrade to other hulls, such as Chieftain/Challenger etc."
So the turret I can see in your photos, can be fitted on CR.1 or Chieftain
Do you have more infor about it?

 

[kaiserbill]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Thanks again.
Good night. Here too in Argetina

 

[Mech]

Speaking of the GT6, apparently it was designed in two versions.
A "small block" for the 120mm, and a "big block" for 140mm.
There were also apparently "2 TTD's" built.
I suspect that one was the mobility test rig seen earlier in the thread, and the 2nd is the prototype example which is usually seen and which is at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein.

The mobility test rig in that vid sure looks like someone was trying to hide a LEO2 chassis. That could explain why it was never seen again. The Germans would have wanted it back to cover up their involvement. They could have just needed a working chassis for local component testing ( Like the gearbox and suspension) before TTD hull was ready. Another possibility is that it could have been a local hull tested to destruction for mine/STANAG ratings.

 

[Mech]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Optimal turret might also have been export driven. Denel was doing a lot of business with Jordan at the time. They were pursuing a upgrade path of older
Chieftain hulls that would dovetail nicely with the Optimal. I believe the LIW marketing brochure even had a Chieftain chassis option.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Optimal turret might also have been export driven. Denel was doing a lot of business with Jordan at the time. They were pursuing a upgrade path of older
Chieftain hulls that would dovetail nicely with the Optimal. I believe the LIW marketing brochure even had a Chieftain chassis option.

I would be nice to see thta brochure.
That chasis with

That chasis with this turret

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Optimal turret might also have been export driven. Denel was doing a lot of business with Jordan at the time. They were pursuing a upgrade path of older
Chieftain hulls that would dovetail nicely with the Optimal. I believe the LIW marketing brochure even had a Chieftain chassis option.

Somethig like this
This is not the place load it I known

 

[stimpy75]

from a forum about a threadof the Rhodesian military, i hope it's ok when i share the link

Photos - Rhodesian military

Selous scouts

www.militaryimages.net

 

[Pioneer]

One of the French vehicles tested in South Africa, EBR-75, but rejected. Instead they accepted the Panhard - Eland series.

A much belated thank you for your posting AWM53
It would be interesting to know why the South African's rejected the EBR! The first thing that comes to mind is the ridiculous engine location and the nacesity to remove the turret to remove/replace the engine.....

Regards
Pioneer


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Graugrun]

As promised in my post #1852 - some more pics of it being tested..

 

[ZloveGro]

Hello to everyone who can tell you what is the current state (photo) of an experienced tank TTD ths!

 

[BaronTibere]

To continue some discussion on the optimal turret, I noticed that the TTD brochure lists 2 things that the demonstrator did not actually have - a coaxial MG and a coaxial gunner's aux sight. Is it possible still that this mystery turret has some origins in a "production spec" TTD turret that would have included those missing items?

 

[kaiserbill]

It could very well be. If one looks at the mobility test hull, then the TTD (demonstrator), I would well believe that a production variant would see further refinement.
I was musing about that turret, as it doesn't look to be the Bismark, nor the TTD turret (which is still fitted to the TTD anyway)
Your musing is just as valid as mine.
I wondered if it was a new build Optimal turret, but it may be a TTD turret development.

 

[Old Timer]

A while back came across this mod on a Ratel, what seems like additional forced ventilation for the engine. Apparently overheating was a problem in the early models, especially when off-road and bundu bashing. Can anyone confirm?

Good day, this was Ratel Lobo with a centrifugal fan on the back to enhance the cooling.

 

[Old Timer]

"Evaluation of cooloing, intercooling, and air conditioning systems".

The original Bussing engine of the Ratel was a turbocharged unit without intercooling. This developed 282hp. An intercooled version of the engine became available a few years later. This developed 320hp. It may that their was some experimentation to modify the engines to the more powerful version.

Good day, the Ratel Lobo was fitted with and ADE407Ti engine in an effort to replace the old Bussing engine.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Optimal turret might also have been export driven. Denel was doing a lot of business with Jordan at the time. They were pursuing a upgrade path of older
Chieftain hulls that would dovetail nicely with the Optimal. I believe the LIW marketing brochure even had a Chieftain chassis option.

Mech
With your info, one question remind in my mind
With with gun? Older L11 or 120mm soomthbore?

 

[estian12]

I cannot recall right now. I seem to remember the Optimal turret (which could take 120mm) being offered as a replacement turret for a few tanks. Bed time for me.
I'll see what I can find out.
I think Abe Gubler mentioned the Optimal was the Denel/LIW entry into the original Olifant MK2. I'm not sure.
Pierre Lowe Victor's article from VEG magazine posted on this thread seems to indicate it was slightly earlier.

SABushwar posted this internal shot of that turret earlier,which he labelled "LIW toring binne", which means "LIW turret internal".
It seems bare, so might be part of the tests, or development, or a new build prototype turret which was stripped later.
It certainly is a new build though.

Optimal turret might also have been export driven. Denel was doing a lot of business with Jordan at the time. They were pursuing a upgrade path of older
Chieftain hulls that would dovetail nicely with the Optimal. I believe the LIW marketing brochure even had a Chieftain chassis option.

Mech
With your info, one question remind in my mind
With with gun? Older L11 or 120mm soomthbore?

It could mount a LIW 120mm smoothbore gun

 

[stimpy75]

Sry to ask it here, but has anyone read this book? İs it good?
İ've got surviving the ride in paper, which I still enjoy reading