South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Herman]

This is the identification plate of the Saracen-based prototype vehicle which built during the development of the Rooikat. The eight-wheeler was fitted with Saracen suspension units and was supposedly powered by a Cummins diesel engine. I read somewehere that this vehicle had the best ride quality of all the tested prototypes. The prototype, according to the ID plate, was built in 1979, at the South African Railways automotive workshops, at Langlaagte.

 

[Herman]

Two photo's of the Ratel-based (top) and the Eland-based prototypes during the development of the Rooikat. These prototypes, as well as the previously mentioned Saracen prototype, were built mainly to test various kinds of suspension. The Ratel-based vehicle is very high due to its live axles while the Panhard-based hull is exceptionally low due to the H-type drive used. Interestingly, the Panhard-based car had a crew of two men in the hull: a driver and co-driver, next to one another.

 

[Herman]

Two of the vehicles stored inside the shed. These have been discussed previously on this thread.

Very interesting is that the "mystery" 8x8 wreck which stood outside the big shed for many years, has disappeared. This is the prototype 8x8 ICV which we have tentatively identified as the "Sprinkaan", possibly built by the tiffies somewhere and using axles from a Magirus Jupiter truck or gun tractor. It was powered by a Detroit Diesel engine. Very little is known about this thing. A few years ago, while visiting the museum, I ran into a warrant officer who mentioned that this vehicle was pet project of Major ??, who wanted to rebuild it. I do hope that the vehicle has indeed been taken away to be rebuilt and that it will return, with some information about its heritage, and that it has not been taken away to be scrapped/dumped.

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent Herman.
That 8x8 hull in reply 1690, that you surmise to be part of a study into a Ratel replacement...a couple of years back earlier in the thread, a pdf was posted about a few 6x6 and 8x8 hulls and mock-ups. It was indeed to do with a Ratel replacement, earlier than the Hoefyster/Patria/Badger.
I'm sure that hull was featured in that pdf, although i might be wrong. No further info was forthcoming at the time.
I will try to see if I can find it when I am in front of my computer.

 

[sa_bushwar]

This seems to be a Mfezi troop carrier prototype next to the blue Ingwe. There must have been more than one prototype; as the one featured in Surviving the Ride on page 95, has 4 equal sized and spaced windows and this one not.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Never seen a Casspir with such large side and back windows...

 

[curious george]

Never seen a Casspir with such large side and back windows...

Looks like a Wolf to me.

 

[Herman]

It is interesting to see how the switch from Deutz air-cooled engines to Atlantis (Mercedes) water-cooled engines changed the nose profiles of South African armoured vehicles. If one looks at the various armoured SAMIL Kwêvoël models, the noses are low and the air intake at the front relatively small. After the switch to ADE engines, the attendent radiators required larger noses and air intakes, for instance the Velskoen, Casspir, etc. It is especially noticeable on vehicles like the Mfesi, pictured above, Okapi, Tapir, etc. The 8x8 gun travtor prototype was fitted with a MAN diesel and one can see how different the nose profile is compared to the Kwêvoël trucks.

The mk 1 version of the SAMIL 20 was powered by a 6.1 liter Deutz straight six air-cooled engine developing about 125 gross horsepower. This was replaced in the mk 2 by the ADE version of the Mercedes OM 352 engine of about 5.6 liter which developed about 120hp. This engine was also used, in a turbocharged version (170hp), in the CASSPIR. The SAMIL 50 mk 1 was powered by a V6 Deutz diesel of 9.6 liter capacity, developing 192 gross hp. On the mk. 2 this engine was replaced by the ADE 409N engine, an inline (straight) 5 cilinder unit of 9.5 liter developing about the same horsepower. The air-cooled engine was however shorter and lower, and did not require a radiator, of course. The SAMIL 100 always retained the V10 Deutz engine of 16 liters and 320 gross horsepower. This engine was also used in the last variant of the Kwêvoël to be introduced, the Bateleur (1989).

Air-cooled engines have practically disappeared from the commercial truck scene, with only Tatra still offering a 12.7 liter V8 with ratings up to about 420hp and Euro-5 compliant. The problem is that it becomes increasingly difficult to effectively cool the cilinder heads with just air cooling as the power of modern engines increase with turbocharging. I suspect air-cooled engines may also be more expensive to produce than equivalent water-cooled ones.

 

[curious george]

The promo vid is as cheesy as they got in the early 90's BUT have a look at seconds 47-48 in the initial intro.

I assume that is a 35mm eGlas that is truck mounted,any more info or pics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0yOMPgdgVc

 

[Graugrun]

Curious George,

I have placed scans of the EGlaS-35's official brochure in the "South African small to medium calibre weapon prototypes, concepts, projects etc." thread (post #63) - you should take a look there.

eGLaS-35 - it's gun was the newly developed EMAK 35mm cam driven cannon, I have posted EMAK's brochure elsewhere but will move it to this thread where it belongs.

I did not think much of eGLaS until I saw the promotional video, seems like we could have used them to good effect in our anti-aircraft batteries (like at Calueque dam).

 

[Herman]

A question: The SA Defence Force used Bedfords trucks in the fifties, sixties and early seventies. The earlier ones were RL models but in the late sixties, early seventies, SA also received later models of the Bedford. These were initially known (factory nomenclature) as the TK models, the military versions known as MK models. Does anybody know when the MK's were introduced in SA? Approximately how many were acquired and were the SA versions petrol or diesel powered. Most earlier army trucks in SA were petrol powered but that changed in the seventies with the introduction of the Unimogs and then the Samil series in the early eighties (when exactly did the Samils make their appearance?).

 

[kaiserbill]

Herman, I am unsure of a lot of those questions, but I had a quick look in Romer-Heitman large South African Armed Forces.
In a nutshell, he states that from about 1964 already, with the voluntary arms embargo pointing to the future, studies were started, which led to a rationalisation of the types of vehicles purchased, and kept in the inventory. That was the first step.
The next step was a study of the types of vehicles needed for the future, and the testing of those vehicles. The need for standardised and repeatable scientific testing led eventually to the gerotek (?) test range, one of the foremost in the world.
He basically says the SAMIL entered service from 1980 onwards.
Remember though, that this book was published around 1991, when secrecy and disinformation was still taken very seriously.

Edit: Perhaps Surviving the Ride would have more up to date "open" info. A brief google shows the Kwevoel entry has some info on the history of the SAMIL series. My laptop gave up the ghost, and I still need to retrieve its data, so I rely on my phone till its replacent arrives and data is transferred..less than ideal.

 

[kaiserbill]

A bit of backround info on the LZN as used in the fire service.
The one pic shows how massive this vehicle really is, compared to the adjacent fire pump/turntable ladder.
http://www.fireandrescue.co/news-dec-9-oldie.html

I've sort of got curious about this vehicle again due to the recent images of the North Korean missile transporter vehicle.
Still no real or new information has come to light about the South African TEL vehicle.

 

[leo.nap]

Skerpioen 8x8

 

[kaiserbill]

Nice Levan!
Thanks.
So now we have a bit more context with the Rooikat towing picture.
Previously, we knew there seemed to be 2 types from the few pictures available.
This one which was obviously a field repair/combat maintenance vehicle for the "tiffies", and the other one with the large l loadbed that looks like it was probably a field/combat supply vehicle.

It's a big beast.
It would be great to know more details of this vehicle.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1706:
Who has the LZN fire truck in use? Which department or municipality is SA?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1707
What is this thing!? It is enormous! Be very interesting to hear when and where it was built, and the technical details.

 

[leo.nap]

Ratel 35

 

[kaiserbill]

Brilliant. Nice pic.
I've been wondering about this vehicle and the project backround since those small pics were first posted earlier in the thread.

 

[Herman]

In 2007, a 35mm anti-aircraft gun "ran away" at Lohatla and killed 9 SA soldiers. Did it ever become clear exactly what went wrong with the piece? Technical hitch or human error?

 

[Frank111]

Technical failure, but human error were not totally "ruled out". Official statement is pin that broke, the Swiss company did investigate and nothing further happened

 

[compton_effect]

Bad design and human error (Lots of it)
The anti-aircraft cannon had been upgraded to a new electro-mechanical system during the 80's. Against Oerlikon's recommendations. One main problem was that the autocannon recoil caused the gun to push to the right, a issue they never quite resolved. The control system was upgraded to compensate for that.

They were busy running live fire manual operation training when it happened. The plan was to give each of the gun crew a few target flares to shoot at, while the system was in manual mode. The training officer could have actually ran it in a semi-automatic mode, where the operator could steer the gun into the target, but had limits on the horizontal and vertical movement. The officer neglected to do that.

The first of the crew to get a turn, was a young black lady. He ran her through the firing procedure again, how a target flare would be fired in front to her, and how she could then aim with the steering handles, before firing by stepping on the pedals. Then he moved on to the next gun emplacement, which was to the right.

The flare was fired by the range crew, she steered the gun into the target, then stepped on the pedals. And promptly panicked, and let go of the handles. In the time it took her to step off the pedals, the gun dropped to horizontal, and the recoil swung it to the right, firing into the next gun crew at point blank range.

(I know a recently retired officer, who assisted in the investigation)

 

[curious george]

That is consistent with the rumor mill at the time.

 

[Rickshaw]

Didn't they have an instructor on each gun? Overseeing the student's actions? Downunder, that would be SOP. I've instructed, mainly on small arms at the range and we always have for recruits an instructor with them, to make sure they don't make many stuff-ups and follow the procedure properly. I've been instructed on RCLs and Mortars in the same way.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Sounds like a proper fubar situation. If there was an instructor per gun, they must have been doing something else at the time. Is there in instructor cut out on these weapons? Perhaps there should be. A student panicking on a gun firing would seem to be unfit.

 

[kaiserbill]

Recently uploaded BBC report from 1994.
I'm posting it because it has a lot more footage of the 35mm SPAAG on the Rooikat than has previously been available out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAcnYYxKro

 

[Graugrun]

http://www.janes.com/article/78380/kazakhstan-puts-barys-through-its-paces

 

[kaiserbill]

Off facebook.
The SAR railway convertible to road armoured vehicle.

 

[Frank111]

Anyone have further information on the RG-41 APC? Would like to see that with the LCT-30 turrent on.

 

[Mech]

Cousin of G6

 

[stimpy75]

is thatt the iraqi "version"?the one with 2 different gun calibers?i believe one was 210mm?

 

[Mech]

This would be the 155mm version. Strange they didn't just stick G-5 barrels in them.
Probably would have been ready for GW1 if they did.

 

[panzerskool]

Al Fao in 210 and 155mm. Geralds Bulls first attempt at 6X6 highly mobile SP

 

[leo.nap]

Another photo of Skerpioen.
Huge!

 

[leo.nap]

I don't know what kind of vehicle it is.

Photo was taken In Port Elizabeth in 1986.

 

[Graugrun]

Two articles covering both the Husky and Springbuck vehicles developed and made by DCD - it covers the new development and new versions of both vehicles, hence me placing them here. The Husky is one of our military vehicle export success stories, with over 1500 sold - most to the U.S. military. It has even been made into 1/35 scale plastic kit models (by AFV Club and Panda-Hobby).

http://www.janes.com/article/81812/militaries-eye-second-generation-husky-mine-detection-vehicles

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52429:explosive-demonstration-for-dcd-vehicles&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

 

[robunos]

I don't know what kind of vehicle it is.

Photo was taken In Port Elizabeth in 1986.

Reminds of the Krimpvark, shown in 'Surviving the Ride' . . .

KRIMPVARK

"Anticipating a need in the civilian market place for a small armoured vehicle to be used by farmers, security companies, local authorities, mining companies and other industries in high-risk areas in remote rural parts of South Africa, Koos de Wet and Bert Sabatier designed a range of vehicles based on the ordinary commercial 1 ton pickups available in the market place.
Design work on the Krimpvark began in early October 1985 and was built by Afrit in Rosslyn, the marketing arm of Van de Wetering engineerings contractor of Armscor.
The Krimpvark was available in either a three- or five-seater version.
A lot of attention was given to the comfort of the passengers in this civilian armoured vehicle. The cabin was air-conditioned and the whole interior carpeted. Ample entrance was provided by two safety doors, one on each side of the cabin and a rear door for the five seater.
Emphasis was placed on removing the aggressive military appearance of the mine protected cabin by providing a soft outward appearance. The cabin design of the Krimpvark ensured protection against antitank mines and small-arms fire up to 7.62 mm ball ammunition.
The Krimpvark was designed to be mounted on almost any make of pickup truck available in the market in South Africa at the time. It was a two-wheel-drive vehicle capable of a top speed of 110 km/h on tarred roads. It was offered in either a 2 litre petrol-driven engine or a 2.2 litre diesel engine. The big advantage of using a standard proven drive train was the ease of availability of the spare parts and servicing through national dealer networks. There were plans for future versions of the Krimpvark to include a four-wheel drive, three-seater with a load-carrying facility, but the Krimpvark sales were not as anticipated and only very few were manufactured and no further development was carried out.
Krimpvark is the Afrikaans word for hedgehog."

My bold, words and image from 'Surviving the Ride'


cheers,
Robin.

 

[sa_bushwar]

A lessor known CSIR project of the 80's...

 

[Mech]

Does anyone have some info on this pic?
Looks like a Ratel 81 with a 120mm tube.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Does anyone have some info on this pic?
Looks like a Ratel 81 with a 120mm tube.

Looks Photoshopped....