Welcome Graugrun, and an excellent post!

The gist that list came from the discussion between Abraham Gubler and Apophenia earlier in the thread (page 6 or 7).
I remember Paratus magazine, which was the official magazine of the SADF.
I've always thought that it could be a mine of useful information and pictures.

Your pictures aren't showing though.

Do you need to repost, or need assistance?
 
I assume graugrun is having difficulty posting the pics, possibly due to his number of posts?

These are the first pics of these two South African tank guns on the net, as he posted over on http://saairforce.co.za/forum/

As he said in his post, and in order:
1. "Pic of the GT12 being readied for testing, note the slated type pepper-pot muzzle brake, perhaps the forerunner of the LEO 105mm artillery gun they are still developing (from IDR)."


2. "Pic of the GT6 being test fired (from Paratus magazine of all places!)."
 

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Isn't it amazing what has been under our noses all this time, in published material in the open domain?

This scan from one of Helmoed Romer Heitmans books, South African Armed Forces published 24 years ago in March 1990.

There is the back of the MAN 8x8.
This is at least a concrete date that the MAN 8x8 was around before 1990, and goes with Curious Georges post on page 47 stating that the SADF had MAN 8x8 vehicles kicking around in 1987 already, and possibly/probably earlier.
 

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Just wonder is South African industrial still cabpable development some of these system ground up?
 
xiaofan said:
Just wonder is South African industrial still cabpable development some of these system ground up?

Most of the skillset has either died off,or moved away.If push came to shove there is enough talent left to rebuild the industry,but the difference now is that the decision makers are bit too open to kickbacks/open bribery from outside but that is different topic and I dont want spoil what is an awesome thread!
 
This is a bit off-topic, but would be interesting to the members of this forum. I live in the Netherlands and there recently appeared a series of articles on the development of the abortive AR 10 machine gun variant of the Armalite AR 10 rifle. Nederlandsche Artillerie Inrichtingen played an important role in the development of this rifle and machine gun. It is interesting to note that the AR 10 rifle and machine gun were tested on at least 2 occasions in South Africa, in 1959/1960, with a view to adoption/production.

Somebody would be able to write and interesting book on small-arms and related development in South Africa. This could include the adoption of the FAL, the later adoption of the Galil/R4, the use of the G3 in SA service, the conversion of the Bren and, most notably, the Vickers to 7.62 x 51, development of the SS77, acquisition and later production of the Beretta 92 pistol, etc. To this can be added the acquisition of AK rifles, RPG 7's, Milan and the development of the FT5 and the Ingwe missiles. The problem with such a book would of course be the same as that encountered in this thread: the people involved are often deceased or have emigrated and records are destroyed or buried somewhere.
 
Not forgetting the various 40mm grenade launchers, 37mm riot stopper gun, Neostad shotguns and anti-material weapons, NTW-20, ADP pistol, Kommando LDP smg (by way of Rhodesia), the related Sanna 77 smg, the BXP smg, various Musgrave rifles and handguns (as well as the 6mm Musgrave cartridge) and Vektor handguns.

And not forgetting this grandfather, the 303 Rieder Automatic Rifle from 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rieder_Automatic_Rifle

Certainly enough various handheld weapons for an entire book.
 

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Note that the Sanna 77 (SMG) and the SS77 (LMG) are two very different weapons. The Sanna 77 was in essence conceived and designed by the Rhodesians, they did not have the technical ability and or manufacturing ability to bring it to fruition, so we did it for them. It was not a good weapon though and not many were produced.

The SS77 LMG on the other hand has been rated by some highly respected publications as the best LMG available (then - mid 90's), I am not sure about this being the case today.

There are some other weapons, like the Truvello range and the latest PAW 20x42B (Personal Area Weapon) - however the really sad one for me is the Neostead tactical shotgun, a truly great advance in shotgun technology, glowing reports from all who tested it, yet no funds and perhaps poor marketing and it seems to have died a slow death. I noticed and American company is now suddenly offering something similar, perhaps they bought the design rights....?

I will post brochures on the Neostead, PAW and others once I can start posting pics...
 
I stand under correction, the Sanna 77 and Kommando submachineguns were the same gun, I think, just developed.

I know SA used the Uzi, known as the S-1.
I've seen descriptions that it was "based on the Uzi".

Were they imported or locally made?
 
The Sanna was not produced in South Africa. It was the Czech 9mm model 25 SMG, imported from that country in the late seventies. In RSA, the guns were converted to semi-auto only, for sale to the public, and they were refinished with "Gun-Kote". Over the acquisition of these guns undoubtedly also hangs a tale! The guns could quite easily be modified back to full-auto, by the way. The Kommando was of Southern African origin. Certain parts, for instance the barrels, were produced in SA. It may well be that the guns were almost entirely or entirely produced in SA and only assembled in Rhodesia.

NOTE: The Czechs developed the SMG's in 9mm Para as the model 23 (fixed stock) and the model 25 (folding stock). Soon afterwars they had to conform to Soviet Block ammunition and the guns were subsequently produced in in 7.62 x 25 (Russian PP cartridge as used in the Tokarev pistol) as the model 24 (fixed stock) and 26 (folding stock). Remaining guns in 9mm Para were supposedly sold to an arms dealer and ended up in RSA via this route.
 
Thanks Herman

I found this that may illustrate matters more clearly, although I cannot vouch for its accuracy.
 

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One of the most complex and expensive bits to manufacture in a magazine-fed automatic weapon, is the magazine. It has to be carefully engineered and requires relatively sophisticated (and expensive) dies and stamping, and sheet-metal welding techiques. The Sanna 77 (Czech model 25) uses a wedge-shaped magazine modelled after that of the Swedish Carl Gustav SMG. It is wedge-shaped in that the front of the mag is narrower than the back, angling the cartridges inwards at the front. This is generally regarded as the best type of 9mm SMG magazine, somewhat superior to the square type such as used, for instance, by the Uzi. The Kommando and all the Rhodesian guns used Uzi mags, as does the BXP, afaik. After the initial buy of Model 25 guns and magazines, none of these 40 round magazines were available again. Although the Uzi was never produced in SA, magazines may have been. Uzi mags are produced in a number of countries however and are easily obtainable on the international market. If the Sanna, and its mags, had ever been produced in SA, subsequent guns like the Kommando and the BXP would have used the same magazines. The manufacturers would certainly not have tooled up to produce the shorter and possibly inferior Uzi magazines.

The photograph you posted is of the Sanna 77 is identical to a bog standard Czech model 25, by the way.
 
The electric CVED Rooikat project was started around 1993 when Ermetek, which was then the design bureau of Reutech OMC, converted a MAN 8x8 truck to an electric drive, initially with electric motors on 4 wheels, and then on all 8.

The vehicle was called the ETD.
It was still running in 2011, which is the last time I've seen it mentioned.
 

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Another MAN 8x8 in the old nutria brown SADF colours..

I found the picture on a pdf that has a very interesting South African vehicle that seems to be based on a project mentioned earlier.
More on that in a while.

Does anybody know how many of these MAN 8x8 vehicles there were in the SADF?
From nobody ever having seen one, or suspecting there were any in SADF service, there are suddenly more and more photos coming to light.
Clearly there must have been more than one or two vehicles... ;)
 

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I was having a look around, and came upon a dissertion or thesis that has been posted in the public domain.

The paper dealt with steering tests on 6x6 and 8x8 vehicles, with the test vehicle being a 6x6 armoured vehicle that I've not seen nor heard of before. It's a highly technical paper, but if anybody is interested, I can post a link.

Anyway, the vehicle used for the test is described as the Bison Weapons Platform.

This is a large 6x6 armoured vehicle developed by Ermetek, which was the design bureau of Reumech.

The front two axles are steerable, and the Bison was developed for the SADF as a concept demonstrator, but was not released for serial production. It is powered by an Atlantis Diesel Engine (ADE) 447T turbocharged diesel pushing out 300hp, with an automatic 6 speed transmission.
From what I can gather from the thesis, unladen (empty) weight was just over 14 tons, width was about 2,4m, and height was 3 meters. Tires were 16x20.

It was retained as a test vehicle.

As said, I've never heard of this vehicle before.
It looks like it has certain features of the Tapir 4x4 mentioned earlier (pg 25 post 360) in the thread, as well as possibly having some features of the Okapi 6x6, which is a larger vehicle, but there are a lot of differences too, not least size.
 

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On the previous page to this (Pg 49 reply 725), the various vehicles of Project Remark are lined up.
The second from the left, which is Remark 34 (?) I think, was described as apparently being the vehicle that was developed further, and eventually ended up being the Veldskoen.

It has been mentioned that it looks like the beginnings, or prototype, of the Ingwe vehicle.
The Ingwe vehicle was not taken into service as far as I can tell, although a few were made.
I've seen it described as being developed for security on the large mines, yet that doesn't make sense, due to the obvious military aspects of its design. Below is a picture of it in SADF colours.

What is the relation between the Ingwe and the Veldskoen?
Was Remark 34 (?) developed into the Ingwe, which then developed into the Veldskoen?
Or did they branch off, design-wise, at some stage?
Or are they actually unrelated?
 

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Herman said:
The Sanna was not produced in South Africa. It was the Czech 9mm model 25 SMG, imported from that country in the late seventies. In RSA, the guns were converted to semi-auto only, for sale to the public, and they were refinished with "Gun-Kote". Over the acquisition of these guns undoubtedly also hangs a tale! The guns could quite easily be modified back to full-auto, by the way. The Kommando was of Southern African origin. Certain parts, for instance the barrels, were produced in SA. It may well be that the guns were almost entirely or entirely produced in SA and only assembled in Rhodesia.

NOTE: The Czechs developed the SMG's in 9mm Para as the model 23 (fixed stock) and the model 25 (folding stock). Soon afterwars they had to conform to Soviet Block ammunition and the guns were subsequently produced in in 7.62 x 25 (Russian PP cartridge as used in the Tokarev pistol) as the model 24 (fixed stock) and 26 (folding stock). Remaining guns in 9mm Para were supposedly sold to an arms dealer and ended up in RSA via this route.

Herman what you say in this and your following post makes perfect sense - I now suspect that certain parts were made in SA, with some components still imported (perhaps the magazines), with final assembly possibly in Rhodesia, specifically for the sale to farmers in rural areas as an Uzi type of replacement - something that would be easy for the woman folk to handle too.

I friend of mine had one many years ago (deactivated), that I took home and played with for a while - he had an article on it from Soldier Of Fortune (SOF) magazine in which they talked of how it was great that Rhodesia had developed this weapon and who the designer was etc..etc.

Well, I should know better than to ever rely on SOF for their accurate journalism in matters like this...

It would not make sense to tool up for a very limited production run and also then not even use the magazine as a basis for, or within future weapons.
 
On the MAN 8x8's, I've been doing a little light reading.

The South African Airforce has 142 squadron, which is a non-flying squadron.

They deploy the TMR, which is a South African developed Tactical Mobile Radar unit developed under Project Sonic, using a Plessey product as a starting point.
142 squadron recieved their first 4 TMR's in 1989.

The TMR is mounted on an 8x8 MAN, and a full deployment of one of the radars requires 4 MAN 8x8 trucks.

This is the Air Force, not the army, so one can now start forming a picture that there were quite a few of these 8x8 vehicles in the SADF in the 1980's, and from the various pics, probably different models according to role.

It is worth bearing in mind that MAN has had a presence and assembly factory in South Africa since the 1960's.
 

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Yet South Africa appears to have gone for the Kynos Aljaba 8x8, locally made as the SHE Cavallo, instead of the MAN 8x8.
Well, in certain roles at least.
Does anybody know why this is?
When was the SHE Cavallo inducted?
I know it uses a Deutz engine, which obviously has major advantages in a South African context, seeing as Deutz engines were used on many SA vehicles.
Overall. perhaps it was better suited for the SA bush environment?


I'm basically musing here, in regard to the South African TEL vehicles and suitable platforms, or at least platforms that could be used as a technological startpoint.

You have the SAMIL series, of which that 8x8 prototype gun tractor was built.
There is also the G-6 chassis or components, on a vehicle already weighing 47 tons, that could have seen a modified 8x8 platform for a special requirement if pushed.
You have various MAN 8x8 models.
There is the SHE Cavallo (Kynos Aljaba) 8x8 platform.

Then, there is also the bridging equipment below, mounted on what looks, to me at least, like a Faun 8x8 SLT with a modified cab?
I've seen it said that this is the Kynos Aljaba (SHE Cavallo), but that looks like a Faun to me. (Or is it a MAN? From the cab backwards it is identical to the Norwegian Army 8x8 Leguan.)
Anyone confirm this?
The Faun SLT is also powered by a Deutz diesel.

Either way, just some speculation on my part.
Whichever TEL vehicle platform was built, one would have to consider the length of the missile it was to carry.
So, speculating here, many, if not all, might have had to be lengthened or modified to carry it and the launch cradle?
If indeed, the vehicle was to be derived from those mentioned above.

EDIT: I see Graugrun has added another candidate below, the LZN.
 

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Just some more info on LZN - The Special B Vehicles brochure from 1992
 

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Excellent, Gaugrun.
GVM of 55 tons!

Was "Spes B" set up to manufacture a different range of vehicles, or just one specific type?
 
kaiser,

We went through all of this back in September, see this post of yours and those that follow: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.msg197886.html#msg197886

Based on existing evidence it seems almost certain that an 8x8 LZN, or at least something using very similar components, was the Beestrok.
 
JFC Fuller said:
kaiser,

We went through all of this back in September, see this post of yours and those that follow: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.msg197886.html#msg197886

Based on existing evidence it seems almost certain that an 8x8 LZN, or at least something using very similar components, was the Beestrok.

I agree that the LZN was most likely a basis, in 8x8 form, particularly reviewing those posts you've linked.
The size of the LZN ties in with the former Defence Minister stating the tires were massive, at almost 2 meters high.

I'm just trying to correlate and marry up details in comparison to the TEL shown on Page 47.
Even though it is described as a "generic" TEL, I'm speculating that the author, who is extremely well informed, may have based it on the actual vehicle.
 
Graugrun said:
Just some more info on LZN - The Special B Vehicles brochure from 1992

Was having a look around on the net and on the pdf's on this thread, and as alluded to through this thread, both LZN and the G-6 have 21x25 tyres, and identical track width of 2,80m.

They also both have an air-cooled diesel pushing out the same power and 6 speed auto gearbox.

I'm not sure all the suspension components are the same though?
 
"a Vektor made SMG built on an H5 receiver, still stamped Vektor H5 cal 223 on the side. But its infact a experimental Sub Gun built in 9mm. Takes standard Uzi magazines. Has a fold in stock like the R-rifles...

...

What I can say is that these weapons were nearly all destroyed. All destined for the smelter at Iscor! I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, and have a chance to aquire all these wonderful heritage items. All of these special weapons will feature in a locally written book ..."

*Friggin gungrabbers are everywhere!I'm just speechless as to how pieces of history will be destroyed for the sake of ideology!
 

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"Below is one of the very first R6 models every built by LIW, the fore end you see on the rifle is factory fitted. This gun is serial number 001. We have compared it to later R6 rifles and found it to be even shorter. The dust cover is missing, I will have to have another one shortened to fit the weapon. Its the only part that obviously wont be original. I have information that 3 weapons where built like this. Obviously it was some sort of experimental design."

*
Also saved from the smelter!
 

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Nice, Curious George.

I wasn't aware of these.

And it shows that many people would gladly destroy hardware or history without a second thought.
I read somewhere that before the ANC took over, the government went on a shredding spree of biblical proportions.
Some of that probably was weapon related.

As Herman suggested earlier, there is enough material for a large book on SA hand held weapons, so let's hope that person you're quoting does something in that line.
 
Another vehicle that has come to my attention recently is this one, called the Addax.

You'll see that it is a AC-200 6x6 APC, as mentioned in this thread on page 9 reply 134, albeit it has a different rear hull (earlier prototype?) and rather obvious different steering setup.
This project saw a prototype taken in hand by Ermetek and Armscor and modified to have individual steering on 3 axles, so that any or all of the 3 could be steered.
If I recall correctly, there were computer controlled hydraulic steering aspects to this programme.
The project demonstrated that rear axle steering improved handling, reduced tyre wear, and improved low speed manoeuvring.
There was also a project, that involved a modified Landrover, Ratel and a modified G-6, that dealt with various other advanced suspension components, including semi-active hydro-pneumatic springs combined with semi-active dampers.
 

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As noted in one of my previous threads, I had the pleasure of seeing a TEL in Lohatla in late 80's (sans Jerrico/RSA missile) in the tiffies area (must have been getting a service or something) and it was a MAN cab with an inverted front elevation like in Pierre's book and not a flat face like the MAN 8x8. Thought nothing of it at the time but have had a fascination with the TEL since then .


Strange that neither an Israeli Jerrico TEL or a SA RSA TEL have even appeared in the form of a photo.
 
I assume it must have been a pretty long vehicle?

Did the cab feature a "cut-out" on top for the front of the missile, or was the cab itself low slung?
The drawing from Those who had the Power is thus pretty accurate?
 
not sure on length as it was covered with tarpaulin with only cab visible. can't remember about the cab to be honest as it was a long time ago and i was 17 but the forward raking cab i do remember as well as the MAN logo .Pierre's drawing is probably as accurate as they get
 
kaiserbill said:
Another vehicle that has come to my attention recently is this one, called the Addax.

You'll see that it is a AC-200 6x6 APC, as mentioned in this thread on page 9 reply 134, albeit it has a different rear hull (earlier prototype?) and rather obvious different steering setup.
This project saw a prototype taken in hand by Ermetek and Armscor and modified to have individual steering on 3 axles, so that any or all of the 3 could be steered.
If I recall correctly, there were computer controlled hydraulic steering aspects to this programme.
The project demonstrated that rear axle steering improved handling, reduced tyre wear, and improved low speed manoeuvring.
There was also a project, that involved a modified Landrover, Ratel and a modified G-6, that dealt with various other advanced suspension components, including semi-active hydro-pneumatic springs combined with semi-active dampers.

Interesting vehicle. Several points - the high rear hull for a crew compartment indicates how low the front hull is (barely higher than the seated driver?). The fact that we can see how little the hull protrudes below the mudguard height, shows it was quite a shallow hull.

The steering system is quite complex and offers some amusing possibilities for tricks such as "crab steering" (driving sideways). When I was in the Australian Army, I used to drive a four wheel, rough-terrain forklift which had all wheel steering which could do that (if one was being silly or forgetful and locked the rear wheels at an angle and then disabled the rear wheel steering and then turned the front wheels in the same direction. It was often used as a "trap for new players" ;) ). With the wheels in the centre of the vehicle, you'd need front and rear steering to get around. The drive system though must have been pretty difficult to service through the various steering joints.

I've often surprised by this thread with the way you off-handedly reveal which companies were sanction busting with the RSA during the apartheid era.
 
Kadija_Man said:
Interesting vehicle. Several points - the high rear hull for a crew compartment indicates how low the front hull is (barely higher than the seated driver?). The fact that we can see how little the hull protrudes below the mudguard height, shows it was quite a shallow hull.

The steering system is quite complex and offers some amusing possibilities for tricks such as "crab steering" (driving sideways). When I was in the Australian Army, I used to drive a four wheel, rough-terrain forklift which had all wheel steering which could do that (if one was being silly or forgetful and locked the rear wheels at an angle and then disabled the rear wheel steering and then turned the front wheels in the same direction. It was often used as a "trap for new players" ;) ). With the wheels in the centre of the vehicle, you'd need front and rear steering to get around. The drive system though must have been pretty difficult to service through the various steering joints.

I've often surprised by this thread with the way you off-handedly reveal which companies were sanction busting with the RSA during the apartheid era.

Everything I'm posting is in the public domain, often times very well buried, or hidden. Sometimes a brief mention in an unrelated document provides a clue on where to look for the related subject.
Some of it is in published academic papers, or hinted/mentioned in there.
There is some backround information out there that I won't or can't mention, as I promised to somebody...

Much of the companies that "officially disinvested" in South Africa simply opened up renamed local companies for their products, or found a local agent to represent them. Some didn't even bother.
I suppose the idea of sanctions runs completely contrary to a free market system and capitalism.
I suppose it helped that South Africa had a gigantic mining industry, of strategic value in global terms, that ensured that dual use engineering components were always readily available.
If not, it appears that SA were quite prepared to throw money at developing a local indigineous capability.


In terms of Israel, I'm not sure some people are aware of how critical South African finance was to many of Israels own projects, apart from vehicles, where South Africa had an engineering advantage.
A lesser known fact is that South African industry produced around 6000 armoured cars (a few prototypes are in this thread), around 600 heavy artillery pieces, and enormous quantities of ammunition of all types during WW2. Lyttleton Engineering Works was officially established in 1953 by the Defence Production Office, although it had existed during WW2 as the Defence Ordnance Workshop.
South Africa always had far more local engineering and heavy industry resources, coupled with a far higher GDP than Israel, though Israel did have the advantage of access to certain components or capabilities denied to SA. Some of this was critical for SA for high end products, although, as Abe Gubler has alluded to, some Western European countries were happy to deal under the counter. (submarine blueprints, engines, etc)


Still, I seem to recall many of the engineers had signed secrecy agreements of 20 or 25 years duration.
I'm hoping more information comes to light now and in the next couple of years, seeing as these agreements have either just ended, or will do so in the next few years.

Your forklift steering shenanigans shows that soldiers are the same the world over, KM. ;D
 
panzerskool said:
As noted in one of my previous threads, I had the pleasure of seeing a TEL in Lohatla in late 80's (sans Jerrico/RSA missile) in the tiffies area (must have been getting a service or something) and it was a MAN cab with an inverted front elevation like in Pierre's book and not a flat face like the MAN 8x8. Thought nothing of it at the time but have had a fascination with the TEL since then .


Strange that neither an Israeli Jerrico TEL or a SA RSA TEL have even appeared in the form of a photo.

Panzerskool - Was this perhaps what you saw...? (note the 2nd vehicle in particular)
 

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You've certainly made some interesting posts, Graugrun.
The brochures you've posted in a couple of threads in particular.

Those two vehicles above look to be the same vehicle type/chassis as the bridgelayer, and each has a different reg plate, but the one in particular has storage boxes built onto the load bed.
Is the one with the arm up front a bridgelayer, or something else?
 
I'm aware of the means by which sanctions busting was achieved - front companies, etc. I'm also well aware of the close relationship between Israel and the old RSA. It went both ways, with the RSA advising Israel how to handle the first Intifada. There were also strong rumours for many years of Israeli involvement in the South African nuclear program. I remember from the early 1980s also strong rumours of French involvement in the Vela Incident/Test.

What I was referring more to was the recent post about a Plessey Radar. Then we have numerous mentions of MAN and the Spanish truck company. I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on sanctions busting?
 
Kadija_Man said:
What I was referring more to was the recent post about a Plessey Radar. Then we have numerous mentions of MAN and the Spanish truck company. I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on sanctions busting?


Must of this stuff wasn't against the UN embargo because trucks could be transferred for civil use and radars for ATC. The acquisition of dual use material was a legal method the RSA used to get past the embargo.


Plus somehow I doubt that this forum is breaking news about RSA sanction busting efforts.
 
"Groundshout" Casspir mentioned earlier in the thread.

*pic from a f/book group*
 

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Kadija_Man said:
I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on sanctions busting?

Good question.

Most of the so-called "sanctions busting" was happening with the consent/facilitated by "West" at the time, and if not directly complicit,they certainly turned a blind eye to many goings on,we were just one of their many proxy's.

"All is fair in love and war" n all that stuff during the cold war era,eg you would also find countries like the US and China quite playing/doing business with all sides...
 

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