Sea Ceptor - CAMM Sea Wolf replacement

[zen]

I don't see why not, after all a cell doesn't need a silo even just holes cut into the decks with mounting brackets and the correct wiring.

 

[zen]

Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?

Or this was the cheaper option. It also has the benefit of simplifying logistics, as only one type of CAMM canisters has to be stocked.

It because of why it's cheaper.
No need for Sylver or Mk41, and all the attendant costs associated with vls silo arrays.

 

[timmymagic]

Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?

It appears that there is a very real chance that the RN will re-life its Aster 15's into Aster 30's...doubling the number of long range SAM's in the stockpile. Huge development if they do this, and it looks like they're going to.

 

[TomS]

Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?

It appears that there is a very real chance that the RN will re-life its Aster 15's into Aster 30's...doubling the number of long range SAM's in the stockpile. Huge development if they do this, and it looks like they're going to.

They're definitely eliminating ASTER-15. Remanufacturing them into -30 would make far too much sense...

 

[isayyo2]

Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?

It appears that there is a very real chance that the RN will re-life its Aster 15's into Aster 30's...doubling the number of long range SAM's in the stockpile. Huge development if they do this, and it looks like they're going to.

They're definitely eliminating ASTER-15. Remanufacturing them into -30 would make far too much sense...

Could it really be as simple as adding the booster and changing software?

 

[DWG]

Makes sense, but I'm presuming that's the space reserved for possible 16 Mk 41/TLAM cells they're going into, ruling that out as a future option. I suppose it could be done as quadpacked ExLS, which would only take six cells, leaving space for 10 cells available (though 8 would be more likely).

It's also the nearest I've seen to a confirmation that Type 45 does actually use Aster 15 (at least for now), explicit references to it seem rarer than hens teeth.

 

[TomS]

Makes sense, but I'm presuming that's the space reserved for possible 16 Mk 41/TLAM cells they're going into, ruling that out as a future option. I suppose it could be done as quadpacked ExLS, which would only take six cells, leaving space for 10 cells available (though 8 would be more likely).

It's also the nearest I've seen to a confirmation that Type 45 does actually use Aster 15 (at least for now), explicit references to it seem rarer than hens teeth.

Yes, this seems likely to foreclose the option of adding Mk 41 launchers to the T45. Then again, I think the addition of Mk 41 on the T26 did that already. That clearly signalled that the T26 rather than T45 is seen as the main strike platform going forward.

As for the nature of the new launchers, I think it's clear that they are the same "mushroom" launchers as the T23 and T26. And I think we've established that those are too short for CAMM-ER.

We also have official confirmation of Aster-15 in the MoD post up thread.

Currently, the Type 45 destroyers use a combination of short-range Aster 15 and long-range Aster 30 anti-air missiles to engage and destroy enemy threats. To facilitate the introduction of CAMM, a new 24-missile CAMM silo will be added in front of the current 48-missile Aster 30 silos,

 

[zen]

And I think we've established that those are too short for CAMM-ER.

Is it? Does the end cap dictate.the length of the cell?

 

[timmymagic]

Is it? Does the end cap dictate.the length of the cell?

It also kind of ignores the fact that in any of the installations proposed you could extend the cell vertically very easily...all you need is some steel...

 

[TomS]

Is it? Does the end cap dictate.the length of the cell?

It also kind of ignores the fact that in any of the installations proposed you could extend the cell vertically very easily...all you need is some steel...

Steel ... and a new test and certification campaign to make sure that adding a few inches of tube doesn't change any launch dynamics ... and a separate inventory of Sea Ceptor missiles just for the T45s.

If they were adding CAMM-ER, why wouldn't they have said so? It's going to be the same Sea Ceptor/CAMM as in the T26 and T31, mainly to cover the PDMS role.

 

[DWG]

and a separate inventory of Sea Ceptor missiles just for the T45s.

There are hints the Army is getting CAMM-ER, a tweet from a senior officer saying 40km air defence is on its way (see page 2 of the thread), so that would be both versions in service and we've pooled missiles between services before.

 

[zen]

Is it? Does the end cap dictate.the length of the cell?

It also kind of ignores the fact that in any of the installations proposed you could extend the cell vertically very easily...all you need is some steel...

Steel ... and a new test and certification campaign to make sure that adding a few inches of tube doesn't change any launch dynamics ... and a separate inventory of Sea Ceptor missiles just for the T45s.

If they were adding CAMM-ER, why wouldn't they have said so? It's going to be the same Sea Ceptor/CAMM as in the T26 and T31, mainly to cover the PDMS role.

You know......you can read too much into a general principle statement. As I had access and knowledge and the clearances to reveal anything.
I would not make that claim.

And the general principle here is yhT just because you see a mushroom dome like Sea Ceptor, doesn't mean what lurks beneath it is anything or only a CAMM/Ceptor missile.

 

[Hood]

The performance of Sea Ceptor would seem to indicate a like-for-like Aster 15 replacement (~5km less range (if 25km is the real max range), Mach 0.5 slower and presumably a smaller warhead too - overall CAMM is 211kg lighter!).
CAMM-ER would offer an additional 15km (or more) range over Aster 15 but is still slower. So not sure there would be that much advantage using CAMM ER instead of Sea Ceptor.

Presumably using Sea Ceptor for closer targets would also free Sampson channels for Aster 30 to allow both to be used simultaneously?

Wikipedia states the cannister is 2.75 x 2.75 x 400.4cm, but the MBDA brochures linked don't confirm this, only the physical dimensions of the actual CAMM and CAMM-ER.

 

[TomS]

Is it? Does the end cap dictate.the length of the cell?

It also kind of ignores the fact that in any of the installations proposed you could extend the cell vertically very easily...all you need is some steel...

Steel ... and a new test and certification campaign to make sure that adding a few inches of tube doesn't change any launch dynamics ... and a separate inventory of Sea Ceptor missiles just for the T45s.

If they were adding CAMM-ER, why wouldn't they have said so? It's going to be the same Sea Ceptor/CAMM as in the T26 and T31, mainly to cover the PDMS role.

You know......you can read too much into a general principle statement. As I had access and knowledge and the clearances to reveal anything.
I would not make that claim.

And the general principle here is yhT just because you see a mushroom dome like Sea Ceptor, doesn't mean what lurks beneath it is anything or only a CAMM/Ceptor missile.

Fair.

And I realized that there already is a tested CAMM ER launcher, as part of Albatros NG. And it turns out to be, as suggested, functionally identical to the six-cell module for Sea Ceptor, just a bit longer/deeper. So mea culpa on that.

Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine

By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG

www.edrmagazine.eu

 

[timmymagic]

Fair.

And I realized that there already is a tested CAMM ER launcher, as part of Albatros NG. And it turns out to be, as suggested, functionally identical to the six-cell module for Sea Ceptor, just a bit longer/deeper. So mea culpa on that.

Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine

By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG

www.edrmagazine.eu

With the RN and Army operating a shared stockpile, if the Commander of 7 AD is correct, the Army is going to get some CAMM-ER. I can't imagine the Navy seeing part of the stockpile that is available to them decrease not deciding to have a look, at the very least, at CAMM-ER. The benefits are just too great to be ignored. Particularly on T26 and T31. Effectively it doubles the range at which they can engage.

 

[timmymagic]

Presumably using Sea Ceptor for closer targets would also free Sampson channels for Aster 30 to allow both to be used simultaneously?

Sea Ceptor won't be using Sampson channels. It's guidance is from a seperate 2-way datalink, used exclusively for Sea Ceptor, the target location provided through this by the CMS gets the missile close enough to go active.

 

[timmymagic]

Wikipedia states the cannister is 2.75 x 2.75 x 400.4cm, but the MBDA brochures linked don't confirm this, only the physical dimensions of the actual CAMM and CAMM-ER.

Have a look at the cross-sectional pics, they're exactly the same, except for length. MBDA have also been asked directly at trade shows and have confirmed this.

 

[zen]

CAMM-ER is cold launched I see. Cheaper than hot launch.

As to integration. Ceptor integration with Patriot is already proven. Being true digital and software based. Obviously so.

 

[DWG]

And I realized that there already is a tested CAMM ER launcher, as part of Albatros NG. And it turns out to be, as suggested, functionally identical to the six-cell module for Sea Ceptor, just a bit longer/deeper. So mea culpa on that.

Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine

By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG

www.edrmagazine.eu

Pity they don't give the dimensions on the new six cell MLS, it would be interesting to compare sizewise with Mk 41. But it looks small enough that there may be little advantage left for ExLS with quadpacked CAMM if you don't otherwise have Mk 41 aboard.

ETA: Comparing pics, if the mushroom caps have retained the same size, then it looks like they've increased the missiles/area by over 50% compared with the Type 23 installation. It's at least 50% because they've effectively slotted a third missile between each pair, and it could be more because that circular flange at the head of each tube appears significantly smaller in comparison to the mushroom cap in the new installation - in fact it's almost the same size. It also looks like they've abandoned slanting the missiles outboard, possibly because of greater confidence in the system, and likely because with a modular unit that's 3 by 2 you don't know if it'll be long side outboard or short side.

 

[zen]

Presumably using Sea Ceptor for closer targets would also free Sampson channels for Aster 30 to allow both to be used simultaneously?

Sea Ceptor won't be using Sampson channels. It's guidance is from a seperate 2-way datalink, used exclusively for Sea Ceptor, the target location provided through this by the CMS gets the missile close enough to go active.

But it will be using PAAMS target data via it's own datalink and that data will come from radars.

 

[timmymagic]

But it will be using PAAMS target data via it's own datalink and that data will come from radars.

The radar can track over 2000 targets. With active seeker missiles you don't need the same fidelity, you just need to get them to within 3km and the active seeker will take over.

 

[zen]

More likely to be 2048

Yes indeed the beauty of ARH SAMs is there's no TIR giving the target a powerful warning signal as it illuminates it.

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

According to information published by the British Ministry of Defense on November 18, 2021, Poland and the United Kingdom will collaborate to develop NAREW, Poland’s future Ground-Based Air Defence System with the delivery of CAMM (Common Anti-air Modular Missile) air defense missile system to Poland.

A landmark agreement has been reached between the British Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Błaszczak to cooperate on Poland’s future air defense system. A first for the UK-Poland relationship, the Statement of Intent will see the two countries share pioneering technology to develop NAREW, Poland’s future Ground-Based Air Defence System, which is anticipated to have a multi-billion-pound budget.

Poland selects MBDA CAMM missile system under its NAREW air defense pr

According to information published by the British Ministry of Defense on November 18, 2021, Poland and the United Kingdom will collaborate to develop NAREW

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[zen]

The banner says "first order for production of CAMM and Brimstone missiles components in Poland"

On the matter of getting a missile in range of it's ARH seeker. It needs be born in mind the less time/effort needed to actually aquire the target once in range of the seeker reduces the risk of failure.

 

[timmymagic]

Confirmed in the January issue of Desider that Sea Ceptor has been trialled against surface targets. HMS Portland undertook trials of Sea Ceptor to demonstrate its 'Fast Inshore Attack capabilities'.

January 2022

Read January 2022 by Desider on Issuu and browse thousands of other publications on our platform. Start here!

issuu.com

 

[timmymagic]

Looks like another large sale for CAMM.
Poland again...
This is seperate to the NAREW programme that was the original contract for CAMM and CAMM-ER.

The Pilica programme is to provide close in protection to Poland's Patriot missile systems. Originally this was to consist of AAA and Piorun missiles, but now appears, probably as a result of observations from the Ukrainian conflict, to also include CAMM. An additional 700 missiles and 21 batteries are mentioned.

Poland To Sign Another Major Defence Procurement Deal: Polish-British Air Defence Solution Coming Up

Negotiation has come to an end, on the developmental version of the combined AAA/SAM Pilica system. The agreement would be signed in early September, Defence24.pl found out off the record. This contract, worth billions, would see the Polish Armed Forces procure 21 new Pilica batteries, involving...

defence24.com

 

[zen]

note the development of CAMM-MR in this piece.

Polish “Iron Division” Leading the Air Defence Revolution

JAKUB PALOWSKI22.11.2022 09:06

Polska wyrzutnia rakiet CAMM w Ustce
Photo. St. szer. Sławomir Kozioł/18 DZ

The soldiers of the 18th Mechanized Division are currently taking part in an exercise at the training range in Ustka. They are operating the recently commissioned “Little Narew” air defence system based around the CAMM SAM systems. The training exercise at the Air Force Training Range in Ustka involves soldiers hailing from the newly formed 18th Air Defence Regiment (Zamość-Sitaniec), which is also a part of the "Iron Division". Those soldiers operate the "Little Narew" system that includes CAMM launchers based on the Jelcz 8x8 trucks, using the Soła radars, and a C2 system developed domestically, in Poland.

The Air Force is also involved in the exercise taking place in Ustka, with its F-16 jets, probably in the red-air role. Apart from them, representatives of the Polish and British defence industries also participate in the undertaken activities. Considering the fact that we are dealing with the first system of the kind (of such performance in general), operated by the Polish Armed Forces, not only would the training be aimed at preparing the crews to handle such assets, but also at developing and perfecting the procedural framework for the use of such a system. The experience gathered during that exercise would be precious both for the air defence specialists, and the pilots for instance.

18 Dywizja Zmechanizowana on Twitter: "Na poligonie w Ustce trwa szkolenie specjalistyczne obsług baterii systemu „Mała Narew” z 18. Pułku Przeciwlotniczego z Zamościa. Szkolenie prowadzone jest z udziałem lotnictwa Sił Powietrznych oraz inżynierów z polskiego i brytyjskiego przemysłu obronnego. https://t.co/TZCayL9ied" / Twitter

We are referring to an air defence system that offers the capability to engage multiple targets at once, using ARH missiles. Each missile only requires a preliminary target data set, and then that data could be potentially updated. In the terminal phase of engagement, the guidance system is self-sufficient, there is no necessity to track the target with the use of the fire control radar. Kub, Osa, Newa-SC, and Wega systems operated by the Polish Army so far, as well as the Standard SM-1MR system operated by the Polish Navy (OHP Frigates), have been using either semi-active radar seekers or the command guidance, meaning that throughout the whole engagement the missile had to receive data from the air defence system, or the target had to be tracked by the SAM system's radar.

The "Little Narew" may thus be used to act against massive airstrikes even when a single fire unit is deployed, with a maximum range defined as more than 25 kilometres. Reaction time or missile kinematics also exceed those of the legacy systems. The "Little Narew" has been configured rapidly, as an existing radar, and modified C2 elements were used to build it. Thus, the system could have been delivered in October this year, following the order placed in April. Training is a part of the natural course of events, as the user follows a proper path of preparing the system for operational use. Again, this needs to be reiterated: "Little Narew" is the first system of this kind in Poland. The system has been delivered by a PGZ consortium, while the missiles have been supplied by MBDA UK.

Photo. St. szer. Sławomir Kozioł Another example of this system is to be handed off to the 15th Air Defence Regiment from Gołdap. Let us add that the experiences gathered throughout the "Little Narew" programme have resulted in a decision to create a Polish-made Pilica+ system, in which a modernized C2 system of the combined Pilica AAA/SAM solution would also be integrated with the CAMM launchers, and new Bystra radars, being the first Polish AESA sensors. Systems as such would be used to defend and protect the Patriot MRAD assets, as a part of a holistic IADS.

Meanwhile, the Narew system in its final form integrated within the IBCS network, and with the Sajna radars that would offer a broader set of target detection capabilities, is to be armed with the license-manufactured CAMM-ER missiles, offering a range extended to 45 kilometres. Ultimately that system would also be complemented with a CAMM-MR missile, jointly developed by the Polish and British industries, offering an even more expanded performance envelope. In total, 21 Pilica+, and at least 23 Narew batteries in their final configuration are to be commissioned. It remains an open question whether further procurement would be planned, as extra divisions are established. But this is a matter that is placed further down the timeline. Currently, the operational practice related to the first version of the system needs to be perfected. The commissioning of the "Little Narew" is a necessary step. Rearming the Polish GBAD (apart from the VSHORAD assets) with western systems (Wisła and Narew), replacing those whose heritage is rooted in the Soviet Union would be time-consuming. The establishment of new units is planned to happen as well.

 

[zen]

CAMM-MR picture surfaces.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669633973734060033

View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1669633973734060033

 

[WatcherZero]

So something in the high SM-1 to low SM-2 operating range band, probably single packed into Mk41 launcher rather than quad packed.

 

[zen]

So something in the high SM-1 to low SM-2 operating range band, probably single packed into Mk41 launcher rather than quad packed.

So 100km falls neatly between CAMM-ER and Aster-30. It's land based usage would be to compliment Patriot.
So IF that entered service with the British Army, it's more like the return of Thunderbird only vastly more capable.
It's not a given that this will or won't fold up. The text suggests quad packing in mk41.
Which is doable especially if the fins fold up.

 

[TomS]

It says "more than 100 rounds in 4 Mk 41 modules" meaning 32 VLS cells. If all of them quadpacked, that would be 128 missiles; would they call that "more than 100" or "more than 120"? I'm probably way over-thinking that number. Only 9 MR missiles* doesn't seem like enough in that mix.

* 23 quads plus 9 singles = 101 total

 

[zen]

Bear in mind that theoretically you could fit 9 CAMM in a single mk41 silo in a 3 by 3 array.
Since mk41 is 25" Square and each missile is 6.5" or so.
Even CAMM-ER is just 7"

It's more likely we'd see some 32 CAMM-MR (8 by 4) and 72 CAMM (9 by 8).

 

[TomS]

Bear in mind that theoretically you could fit 9 CAMM in a single mk41 silo in a 3 by 3 array.
Since mk41 is 25" Square and each missile is 6.5" or so.
Even CAMM-ER is just 7"

It's more likely we'd see some 32 CAMM-MR (8 by 4) and 72 CAMM (9 by 8).

Lockheed has shown what they expect to be able to do with CAMM in Mk41 and it's Host-ExLS, which is a quadpack. Nine (or 8 with a dead spot in the middle because there may be technical reasons to want each missile to have access to the side of the canister) might be mechanically possible but has not even been hinted at.

 

[zen]

Yes but there is no point in taking up mk41 space r buy EXLS when Ceptor cells are easier to site and weight less.

 

[TomS]

Yes but there is no point in taking up mk41 space r buy EXLS when Ceptor cells are easier to site and weight less.

And yet, here we are because that seems to be exactly what Poland are planning. Here's a mocked up CAMM quadpack in a Mk 41 cell (source: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/12/latest-news-on-polands-miecznik-frigate-program/)



My sense is that the Sea Ceptor mushroom farms are actually pretty large, area-wise, versus Mk 41/ExLS. Comparing the Type 31 drawings with th e Polish Arrowhead frigate, I think you get 12 CAMM in about the same deck space as 16 Mk 41 cells.

 

[zen]

Is that EXLS?

As for the 'mushrooms' I cannot comment much. It's certainly not the case in the Army version.
So quite why you'd replicate the Type 23 upgrade is a curious thing.

 

[TomS]

A rough facsimile, but yes, probably.

Here's the actual CAMM insert in a 3-cell ExLS launcher, which is similar.

Lockheed Martin to Begin Qualification Testing of 3-Cell ExLS in 2016

/PRNewswire/ -- Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) is concluding production of its 3-Cell ExLS Stand Alone Launcher designed to fire MBDA's Common Anti-air Modular...

www.prnewswire.com

 

[WatcherZero]

So something in the high SM-1 to low SM-2 operating range band, probably single packed into Mk41 launcher rather than quad packed.

So 100km falls neatly between CAMM-ER and Aster-30. It's land based usage would be to compliment Patriot.
So IF that entered service with the British Army, it's more like the return of Thunderbird only vastly more capable.
It's not a given that this will or won't fold up. The text suggests quad packing in mk41.
Which is doable especially if the fins fold up.

Yes noticed looking again at the image what could possibly be three hinges on the fins allowing them to fold into a square similar to how the rear fins fold half way along their length to fit in the cannister. So may just squeeze into quad pack but a really snug fit.

 

[WatcherZero]

Reason the mushroom farm is apparently preferred by the RN is it doesnt require any maintenance, its a sealed unit with the missile breaking through the seal on launch whereas the Mk41 cells hatches as mechanical and electrical objects exposed to the maritime environment require regular maintenance.

 

[CIC-TAO]

Perhaps because the "mushroom farm" is inexpensive.
According to Jane's, the "mushroom farm" maximizes the utilization of existing GWS 26 VLSW equipment.