Sea Ceptor - CAMM Sea Wolf replacement

DWG said:
zen said:
A larger bore missile to carry Brimstone seeker and warhead.
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MBDA was pushing quad-packed vertically-launched Spear 3 a while ago, which sort of fills that role for seaborne platforms at least. It seems to have gone quiet, though. There's a pic of the proposal here https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/11/ground-and-sea-launched-spear-3/
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Interesting. I was just thinking that Sea Venom is also about the right size for quad-packing into something like Ex-LS.
 
DWG said:
zen said:
A larger bore missile to carry Brimstone seeker and warhead.
Click to expand...
MBDA was pushing quad-packed vertically-launched Spear 3 a while ago, which sort of fills that role for seaborne platforms at least. It seems to have gone quiet, though. There's a pic of the proposal here https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/11/ground-and-sea-launched-spear-3/
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Yes but SPEAR III is a mini-cruise missile. While a large bore CAMM variant is going to be faster.
Horses for courses really.
 
JohnR said:
How difficult would it be to fit CAMM (I refuse to use that stupid name) to the QE aircraft carriers.
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Incredibly easily. The Combat Management System and main engagement radar (Artisan Type 997) have already had Sea Ceptor integrated with them on T23. The cold launched method also makes emplacing them a whole lot easier than traditional 'hot' VLS. You'd need to do some simple software work regarding the initial trajectory to ensure a launched missile climbed over the islands and antenna if launched over those spots. But thats fairly straightforward (it has been done for T23 and the ANZAC's and will be for T26 ). It would be a very straightforward job whilst in a refit to add 2 x12 cell VL blocks.

I would have thought the best place would be in the area behind the port front quarter Phalanx and at the stern starboard quarter. The cells are designed to be angled outwards slightly so that a missile that had a failure drops straight in the sea, rather than on deck. Those locations probably make the most sense as they would provide all round coverage, limiting missile flight over the deck, avoid area where personnel will be in the most numbers, keep the elevators clear and are as distant as possible from parked aircraft, aircraft movements and the islands.

pvpQCSE.jpg
 
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Strictly FLAADS is sensor agnostic, as long as a digital feed on the target is presented to the missile. It can fly.
Hence why Ceptor was easy to integrate into Patriot.
 
Thanks for that Timmy, you confirmed what my little amateur brain thought.

Zen, I assume FLAADS means Future Light Anti Aircraft Defence System? Also what is meant by sensor agnostic?

In addition why were the QE's fitted with Artisan/T-997 and not SAMPSON, Cavour and I assume Trieste?
 
JohnR said:
Zen, I assume FLAADS means Future Light Anti Aircraft Defence System? Also what is meant by sensor agnostic?

In addition why were the QE's fitted with Artisan/T-997 and not SAMPSON, Cavour and I assume Trieste?
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So 1. Yes that's FLAADS. Which took a lot of PAAMS and ported it into an open form of code.
2. In this context and to my understanding, the inputs being digital packets are run through FLAADS as software. No reliance on specific hardware.
As long as the radar can deliver through it's own processing that data, then the system can engage.
In theory this means that you could even manually input that data, though probably it's more theory than achievable reality.

As for no Sampson, that's a cost saving.
 
Stumbled across this while looking something else up on the MBDA site - looks like another CAMM-ER sale, and another CAMM compatible combat system - Albatros NG:

www.mbda-systems.com

MBDA awarded first contract for its new Albatros NG system | Press Release | MBDA

MBDA has been awarded a first contract for Albatros NG, a brand new CAMM-ER based air defence system.
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com

From the Albatross NG name and CAMM-ER I'd presume it's going onto an Italian-designed platform. Too much to hope it's the Constellation Class ;)
(And it's not the 1st anymore, in fact the release is a month old)
 
DWG said:
Stumbled across this while looking something else up on the MBDA site - looks like another CAMM-ER sale, and another CAMM compatible combat system - Albatros NG:

www.mbda-systems.com

MBDA awarded first contract for its new Albatros NG system | Press Release | MBDA

MBDA has been awarded a first contract for Albatros NG, a brand new CAMM-ER based air defence system.
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com

From the Albatross NG name and CAMM-ER I'd presume it's going onto an Italian-designed platform. Too much to hope it's the Constellation Class ;)
(And it's not the 1st anymore, in fact the release is a month old)
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Definitely not for the USN. Naval News thinks maybe for Brazil, for their Tamandaré Class MEKO frigates, which were announced as armed with CAMM. But this says the missile will be in service by 2024, when the Tamandaré Class isn't due until 2025, so maybe not?
 
TomS said:
DWG said:
From the Albatross NG name and CAMM-ER I'd presume it's going onto an Italian-designed platform. Too much to hope it's the Constellation Class ;)
(And it's not the 1st anymore, in fact the release is a month old)
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Definitely not for the USN. Naval News thinks maybe for Brazil, for their Tamandaré Class MEKO frigates, which were announced as armed with CAMM. But this says the missile will be in service by 2024, when the Tamandaré Class isn't due until 2025, so maybe not?
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I was definitely joking about the USN. The MBDA release says the contract "paves the way to further acquisitions by the same customer", and you would have to ask whether any other Brazilian ship is a likely platform for CAMM-ER.
 
DWG said:
TomS said:
DWG said:
From the Albatross NG name and CAMM-ER I'd presume it's going onto an Italian-designed platform. Too much to hope it's the Constellation Class ;)
(And it's not the 1st anymore, in fact the release is a month old)
Click to expand...

Definitely not for the USN. Naval News thinks maybe for Brazil, for their Tamandaré Class MEKO frigates, which were announced as armed with CAMM. But this says the missile will be in service by 2024, when the Tamandaré Class isn't due until 2025, so maybe not?
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I was definitely joking about the USN. The MBDA release says the contract "paves the way to further acquisitions by the same customer", and you would have to ask whether any other Brazilian ship is a likely platform for CAMM-ER.
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Sorry, sometimes I'm humor-impaired.

Three of the Niterois are supposedly going to be modernized. But even the youngest hulls would be nearly 50 years old! I haven't seen anything about a modernization of the surviving Type 22s, but it might make more sense.
 
TomS said:


Three of the Niterois are supposedly going to be modernized. But even the youngest hulls would be nearly 50 years old! I haven't seen anything about a modernization of the surviving Type 22s, but it might make more sense.
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I initially looked at the Brazilian fleet list and ruled out both the Niterois and Type 22s for lack of an easy VLS installation. But I'm starting to wonder if Albatross NG might not be a case of slotting CAMM-ER into an Aspide launcher. CAMM-ER without its VLS capsule is lighter than Aspide - 160kg vs 220kg, but a little bit longer - 4.00m vs 3.72m (about a foot). If the missile is suitable for that form of mounting* then it would be an attractive upgrade for all the Aspide, and potentially Sea Sparrow, mountings out there.

* CAMM was meant to have an airborne variant, so the basic missile is theoretically capable of hanging horizontally, though there's a difference between dropping off a fighter rail and flying horizontally off a shipboard one.
 
I think it's unlikely to use the Aspide launcher, if only because the cells aren't long enough. Retrofitting depends on what kind of launcher is required. If it fits in the 3-cell ExLS, for example, you can probably scab launchers on the side of the helicopter hangar on most of these ships and end up with at least 24 rounds, which is ample. If you do need to cut down through a deck, the opening would be very small.
 
Well the press release significantly hints that it builds on the Albatros system with minimal changes, which suggests integration of CAAM-ER with the NA-30 fire-control system and RTN-20X and RTN-30X series trackers.
MBDA already offer a range of launchers so it wouldn't be a big deal to make a slightly larger box. It should be relatively cheap to bolt on a new launcher and do some software reprogramming. Easier than stripping out all the electronics and cutting holes for VLS cannisters.
This could be a very attractive upgrade option if it really is a plug-and-play retrofit.

16 navies use Albatros, but it is a fairly old system, most of the frigates and corvettes using it were all built in the 1980s, excepting the last batch of Turkish Barabaros-class frigates. So I guess whoever has brought this has intentions to keep their frigates going for another decade or so. My bet would be placed on Turkey (their ships have Mk 41 so no need to worry about legacy Sea Sparrow boxes).
 
DWG said:
TomS said:


Three of the Niterois are supposedly going to be modernized. But even the youngest hulls would be nearly 50 years old! I haven't seen anything about a modernization of the surviving Type 22s, but it might make more sense.
Click to expand...
I initially looked at the Brazilian fleet list and ruled out both the Niterois and Type 22s for lack of an easy VLS installation. But I'm starting to wonder if Albatross NG might not be a case of slotting CAMM-ER into an Aspide launcher. CAMM-ER without its VLS capsule is lighter than Aspide - 160kg vs 220kg, but a little bit longer - 4.00m vs 3.72m (about a foot). If the missile is suitable for that form of mounting* then it would be an attractive upgrade for all the Aspide, and potentially Sea Sparrow, mountings out there.

* CAMM was meant to have an airborne variant, so the basic missile is theoretically capable of hanging horizontally, though there's a difference between dropping off a fighter rail and flying horizontally off a shipboard one.
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CAMM's air borne variant is to all intents and purposes ASRAAM CSP. This is new production ASRAAM for the UK (and anyone else who wants to buy it) using a new IR seeker, replacement of obsolescent components and other tech inserts from CAMM. The UK MoD realised that new production ASRAAM would be as cheap as a re-life of their existing stockpile of ASRAAM (which aren't that old either) and would also lower the unit cost of CAMM M and L.

What's interesting to date is that MBDA haven't pushed an active radar homing ASRAAM CSP out there for customers, or for that matter an air launched CAMM-ER. Active and IR ASRAAM CSP paired together would make an interesting combination, likely to be a lot cheaper than AMRAAM (and certainly so than Meteor). Not sure if CAMM-ER would be suitable for conformal carry on anything though....it's probably too long.

I actually think that the announced Albatross NG order is for a land system not a ship....got a feeling its for a Gulf customer who has seen the recent Iranian drone strikes on Saudi oil facilities and want something new to counter it...I'm thinking Kuwait...All the candidates for a ship based system either have ships that are too small, too old and near replacement or who have selected the MICA-VL recently.
 
timmymagic said:
I actually think that the announced Albatross NG order is for a land system not a ship...
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The press release announcement starts, "Albatros NG is a new CAMM-ER based air defence system for naval applications" and talks several places about navies and ships. Also, the Albatross name was always applied to the naval version of Aspide, not the land versions.
 
timmymagic said:

I actually think that the announced Albatross NG order is for a land system not a ship....got a feeling its for a Gulf customer who has seen the recent Iranian drone strikes on Saudi oil facilities and want something new to counter it...I'm thinking Kuwait...All the candidates for a ship based system either have ships that are too small, too old and near replacement or who have selected the MICA-VL recently.
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If it was for a land-based system I'd expect it to be marketed as Skyguard NG or Spada NG - and Kuwait is already a Skyguard user, and a repeat customer, so it would make marketing sense to use the Skyguard name.

There's a considerable number of Aspide/Albatross systems, and Sea Sparrow, still out there.
 
Another candidate user might be Qatar. They just fielded their Al Zubarah "corvettes," which are armed with 16 Sylver A50 cells with ASTER 30 (plus RAM for close-in defense). Adding CAMM-ER as an intermediate layer would be quite the force multiplier (especially if it quadpacks into Sylver).

www.navalnews.com

Qatar's New Air Defense Corvette Starts Sea Trials - Naval News

A new major milestone in the Qatar Emiri Naval Forces (QENF) fleet renewal and empowering program was reached by Fincantieri shipbuilding group on 18 November, when the First-of-Class (FoC) "Al Zubarah" (F 101) multirole corvette conducted the first seagoing out of Fincantieri’s Muggiano...
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
 
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timmymagic said:
TomS said:
It's been selected for the Canadian Type 26, at least.
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Has that been confirmed with a contract?
Presumably as LM are the Prime for Canada?
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Now with an official press release:

www.navalnews.com

MBDA Confirms Sea Ceptor Order for Canadian Surface Combatant - Naval News

MBDA has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin Canada to equip the Royal Canadian Navy's new Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) with the Sea Ceptor air defence weapon system.
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com

Utilising the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) as its effector, Sea Ceptor will undertake the Close-In Air Defence System (CIADS) role on-board the new CSC frigates.


Sea Ceptor provides exceptional self-defence performance, with a rapid response time and a high rate of fire to defeat multiple threats simultaneously. Its state-of-the-art Soft Vertical Launch (SVL) technology enables full 360° coverage with close range performance normally only associated with trainable launcher systems. Sea Ceptor will be integrated with Lockheed Martin Canada’s Combat Management System 330 (CMS 330) as part of a multi-tier air defence capability. The CAMM missiles will be quad packed in Lockheed Martin’s Extensible Launcher System (ExLS), which is part of the Mk41 family of vertical launcher systems.
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Well this is a genuine surprise...the un-named customer for CAMM-ER (in its Albatros-NG guise) has broken cover...no-one guessed at them....it's Pakistan..

CAMM-ER is being installed on their Turkish-designed MILGEM ships. The first 3 ships have already been built in Turkey, but the 4th is being built (and 'designed') in Pakistan as the first of the Jinnah Class, this is the ship class that will carry CAMM-ER. c3000 tonnes displacement.

www.defenceturkey.com

PN MİLGEM Corvettes to Be Equipped with Albatros NG NBAD System!

www.defenceturkey.com www.defenceturkey.com

MILGEM project - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Thorvic said:
Finally the Type 45 takes on the mantle of the Type 43/43 with a two tier Missile system ( now they just need to order the bleeding Anti-ship missile to replace Harpoon!! )
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That's a huge upgrade.

The fact that they are adding separate CAMM launchers suggests that CAMM Sylver quadpack is not a thing after all.
 
TomS said:
Thorvic said:
Finally the Type 45 takes on the mantle of the Type 43/43 with a two tier Missile system ( now they just need to order the bleeding Anti-ship missile to replace Harpoon!! )
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That's a huge upgrade.

The fact that they are adding separate CAMM launchers suggests that CAMM Sylver quadpack is not a thing after all.
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Possibly, or alternatively it permits the cells currently used for ASTER 15 to be used for additional ASTER 30s significantly increasing total weapons capacity.
 
Since CAMM cells are practically lighter than hot launch VLS silo array like Sylver. Then obviously extent silos would be best used for Aster-30 and instead of the cost/complexity of fitting more Sylver Silos, simply add on CAMM cells elsewhere on the ship.
 
I wonder where the CAMM silos will be? Sounds like possibly two 12-silo packs somewhere amidships?
I don't think a single 24-silo CAMM pack would fit in the supposedly reserved expansion space ahead of the Sylver.
 
Volkodav said:
TomS said:
Thorvic said:
Finally the Type 45 takes on the mantle of the Type 43/43 with a two tier Missile system ( now they just need to order the bleeding Anti-ship missile to replace Harpoon!! )
Click to expand...

That's a huge upgrade.

The fact that they are adding separate CAMM launchers suggests that CAMM Sylver quadpack is not a thing after all.
Click to expand...
Possibly, or alternatively it permits the cells currently used for ASTER 15 to be used for additional ASTER 30s significantly increasing total weapons capacity.
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Possibly, but if quadpack CAMM was available, it would only cost 6 cells to match this installation. Heck, they could have added a single Sylver in the reserved volume and come out ahead. But instead they're adding dedicated launchers. So I think it's likely that quadpack onto Sylver wasn't an easy or cheap option.
 
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Hood said:
I wonder where the CAMM silos will be? Sounds like possibly two 12-silo packs somewhere amidships?
I don't think a single 24-silo CAMM pack would fit in the supposedly reserved expansion space ahead of the Sylver.
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The MoD statement says the CAMM cells will be added in front of the current Sylver launchers.

www.gov.uk

£500m firepower upgrade for Type 45 destroyers

The Royal Navy’s Type 45 destroyers will receive a £500 million upgrade to enhance their firepower capability.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?
 
TomS said:
zen said:
Presumably there has been virtually modeling of scenarios and the loss of a few Aster-30 is viewed as an unacceptable risk?
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Or this was the cheaper option. It also has the benefit of simplifying logistics, as only one type of CAMM canisters has to be stocked.
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Perhaps they see the 'mushroom' launchers being adaptable for the CAMM-ER too. Either way, it's a local solution which does not not seem to have as big a cost, or impact on a ship, as a Sylver or US VLS farm.

ITER controls, I would assume would not be applicable (MILGEM, Pakistani Frigates), and if it's proving a nice earner on the export market as it is, why mess with it?

I also wonder if the mushroom tubes could be distributed around ships, fitted into available spaces (subject to safety constraints). Tubes hangarside perhaps, as in an early plan for Sea Wolf, IIRC. Or even between the Sylver arrays on the T45?
 

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