SAAB JAS 39A/B/C/D Gripen

[seruriermarshal]

Gripen of the Royal Thai Air Force defeated the Su-27 or J-11 in 4:0 victory

Discussion of recent military zone continental spread a less glorious past, the CPC and the end of 2015. Thailand joint military exercises in simulated air combat project, the CCP main fighter Su-27 and J-11 were Thai Air Force JAS-39 “Griffin “4: 0 result of defeat by the Continental Army fans talk.

This air combat simulation called “Eagle -2015” exercise, the CPC operating J-11 pilots, the latest against the Thai Air Force JAS-39C / D type, although at the end of the exercise, the two sides executives publicly say that “the outcome of each.” but the British magazine “Air Force Monthly” the latest was disclosed some details of the exercise, the Thai reporter author wrote to his personal experience as well as communication with the Thai Air Force pilot, insider account of the exercise, including the Chinese Communist Party sent best pilot participation, but also a test of Thailand JAS-39C / D, but the most shocking still air combat simulation results: in some subjects, the “Griffin” with a 4: 0 victory over the J-11.

Many military commentators noted that the performance difference between both fighters, to explain the final result, mostly classified as three reasons:

1. This is a 1-on-1 combat singled out, the comparison is purely aircraft performance, so the problem is not the quality of the pilot, but the aircraft performance issues.

2. Thailand operate Western-style electronic digital fighter for a long time, including the F-16 and JAS-39C / D is the most innovative avionics, can be called “fourth generation semi-fighter.”

3. The CCP dispatched J-11 avionics early configuration, although there is also shot from outside the missile, but compared with the JAS-39C / D, operating procedures excessive.

Some commentators also believe that, JAS-39C / D small and flexible, this type of heavy long-range J-11 fighter is not unexpected defeat. However, most of the military fans unhappy with this result, even if they think that these J-11 is not the most advanced, but still belong to the first line of the Guangzhou Military Region fighters, even if have to beat Thailand, how on Japan, South Korea, the United States? and Su-27 Flanker fighter series has always been to be able to show “stall maneuver” world-famous, it is difficult to accept that it is not flexible enough.

However, some comments are encouraged from the perspective that abroad against its meaning is quite important, purpose of the exercise is to understand their own lack of know opponents strengths, this is the most important. The test of the West’s most superb JAS-39C / D type Griffin, can thus learn better operating system configuration for the Chinese mainland next generation of aircraft development is very informative, and harvest more valuable.

 

[Avimimus]

Without knowing the rules used...

 

[SOC]

1. This is a 1-on-1 combat singled out, the comparison is purely aircraft performance, so the problem is not the quality of the pilot, but the aircraft performance issues.

That's completely untrue, pilot ability is going to matter a great deal. Furthermore, in a 1v1 environment, pilot ability is arguably even more important, given that you lack a wingman or wingmen to rely on for support.

 

[Rickshaw]

Without knowing the rules used...

Indeed. There is a simplistic assumption that all aspects of an aircraft's abilities will be utilised in such peacetime exercises. They aren't. These exercises are simplistic and only allow users to use as much as their owning services think are appropriate.

 

[Flyaway]

This sounds a right mess politically

Bulgaria is to restart its fighter procurement initiative, following recommendations made by a parliamentary investigation board after its review of the decision to name Saab's Gripen C/D as preferred candidate.

The review board – which completed its work on 20 September – indicates that a combined offer of used Lockheed Martin F-16s submitted by the governments of Portugal and the USA was disqualified in an improper manner, preventing a fair evaluation of all submitted bids. Sources suggest that the offer was disqualified because a request for a deferred payment scheme failed to comply with Sofia's requirements.

In its report, the investigation board recommends that the defence ministry rework the requirements contained in its request for proposals, and expand the number of countries which will receive an invitation to participate in the government-to-government tender. A decision on how to proceed sits with defence minister Krasimir Karakachanov.

Prime minister Boyko Borisov has questioned the need to acquire new fighters, and suggested that the Gripen is far from the best choice for the nation, and his centre-right GERB party has voiced its support for the option of purchasing F-16s. The US government and Lockheed delivered an unsolicited proposal in March 2017 promoting new-build examples in a Block 70 standard.

Bulgarian president and former air force commander-in-chief Rumen Radev opposes Borisov's view, and notes that the Swedish type complies with the terms of the earlier request for proposals.

Borisov also has suggested that Bulgaria could consider ordering a cheaper combat aircraft, such as Textron AirLand's Scorpion – which visited the country in June 2015.

Another factor in Bulgaria’s indecisiveness on the new fighter procurement stems from its willingness to maintain good relations with Russia, allowing investment in keeping its current MiG-29 and Sukhoi Su-25 fleets in operational condition. Karakachanov believes the types could fly on until around 2030.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bulgarian-government-backtracks-on-gripen-selection-441498/

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I've noticed that there ain't no general Gripen thread for the legacy models, so maybe it's okay to make a new thread about it I've thought. This thread is also intended to gather the links to numerous other Gripen related threads within the forum and other forums of SP. Mods, if you think this thread is unnecessary, I suggest deleting/merging it with "SAAB Gripen NG" thread and rename the said thread as simply "SAAB Gripen".

I will keep updating this post if the need arise.

Gripen development :rent set of design criteria for the Gripen
design and development of original Gripen (secret postwar aircraft projects)
Gripen E/F (aviation & space)

Gripen avionics :
radar and other general Gripen avionics (avionics and military/naval electronics forum)
Gripen MFD/WAD (avionics and military/naval electronics forum)
Gripen data link and other Swedish communications systems (avionics and military/naval electronics forum)

possible Gripen developments that have been discussed :
silent/stealthy Gripen (secret postwar aircraft projects)
imaginary stealth Gripen art and some discussions (the bar)
navalized Gripen (aviation & Space)
What if Sweden/Saab went for a different set of design criteria for the Gripen (alternative history and future speculation))

Gripen in competitions overseas :
Competitors to the Gripen? (alternative history and future speculation)
what-if about Gripen-like planes that didn't realize (alternative history and future speculation)
Gripen withdrawn from Belgian fighter contest (aviation & space)
Gripen backtracked by Bulgarian gov. in their fighter contest (aviation & space)
Brazilian Meteor acquisition for their Gripens (aviation & space)
Canada Fighter Competition: Gripen and Lightning II left (aviation & Space)

Gripen in action :
Gripen in joint Thai-Chinese exercise (military)

 

[Maro.Kyo]

There have been reports from Philippines that a deal for acquiring 14 MS20 Gripen C/Ds is near as part of their Horizon 2 military modernization efforts. The fighter acquisition plan included in the Horizon 2 is said to be a $1.2 billion program with aims to procure 12 or more airframes. Candidates of the program were block 70/72 Viper and Gripen or simply adding more FA-50s. Since the FA-50 is closer to a light-attack aircraft than a fighter, the Philippine Air Force wanted an actual fighter jet capable of BVR engagement. Problem was that any 4.5th gen fighter jets were too expensive and other used 4th gen options had too much flight-hours on the aircraft for the Filipino program.

The Swedes later on were able to strike the deal that is not only within the budget but actually cheaper. This was able due to the fact that there were surplus Gripen C/Ds that were produced during the 2010s to keep the Gripen production line alive. (https://www.svd.se/staten-betalade-saab-for-14-gripenskrov--star-oanvanda) The Swedish gov. funded the production but they were anticipating those 14 airframes to be able to be sold overseas. That anticipation has not been realized for quite some time until now. The stop-gap Gripens were comprised of 10 C models and 4 D models and were part of the contract for Gripen E/Fs of the Swedish AF.

The said deal is around $400 million cheaper than the LM proposal for 12 Block 70/72s, so that means the program cost for these Gripens are less than $84 million per airframe. I've never seen that cheap of a fighter jet in recent years. I guess there were some costs cut from the Swedish side as well since it is hard to expect for anyone to buy Gripen C/Ds nowadays and it's better to sell them off rather than leaving them sit with almost 0 flight hours.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Since noone has discussed much about MS20, I would like to talk about it as well. I think its the most interesting development for the Gripen in the recent years.

The known improvements are :

Meteor, SDB, RBS-15 Mk.4 integrated
Litening III integrated
4th iteration of PS-05 with new radar modes
Link-16 interoperability improved
improved peacetime operability with civil air control systems
GCAS

please add if anyone knows further improvements

 

[isayyo2]

Gripen C/Ds are probably the best option for the Philippines (baring any Indonesian type F-16 modernization)
MS20 also allows for small diameter bombs too, the perfect "swarming" weapon for any pesky boat incursion.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1348245943959826433

How many "legacy" Gripen's are being stored in Sweden? Several dozen A/B models were not modernized I believe.

 

[H_K]

How many "legacy" Gripen's are being stored in Sweden? Several dozen A/B models were not modernized I believe

I have the same question... Wikipedia is quite confusing.

If I remember correctly, Argentina was also interested but the UK veto made any deal impossible... or perhaps take some low hours Gripen A/Bs, strip out any UK gear and replace with Israeli components?

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Gripen C/Ds are probably the best option for the Philippines (baring any Indonesian type F-16 modernization)
MS20 also allows for small diameter bombs too, the perfect "swarming" weapon for any pesky boat incursion.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1348245943959826433

How many "legacy" Gripen's are being stored in Sweden? Several dozen A/B models were not modernized I believe.

By my counting, around 70, from which the majority are A/Bs. I wouldn't be surprised though, if a lot of those aircrafts were partially stripped/carnivalized for parts. It's a typical practice even for operational aircrafts, so I think it's a no-brainer. Saab also once talked about using existing C/D aircrafts to strip of its parts and use it for E/F productions so I don't expect much problem using stored A/B or C/D to harvest some parts for the operational ones.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

How many "legacy" Gripen's are being stored in Sweden? Several dozen A/B models were not modernized I believe

I have the same question... Wikipedia is quite confusing.

If I remember correctly, Argentina was also interested but the UK veto made any deal impossible... or perhaps take some low hours Gripen A/Bs, strip out any UK gear and replace with Israeli components?

I would really like to know where those aircrafts are stored as well, as like you've said, Wikipedia ain't much of a help, even the Swedish one.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

The Swedish Wikipedia actually confirms what I've said. I'v somehow skipped over that part.

"Since the decision in the Swedish Parliament, it is agreed that the future Gripen fleet will consist of only 100 Gripen planes, it may seem that 104 (204 - 100) Gripen planes are redundant. In fact, 40 have been sold / leased (all of which probably lead to purchases), 7 have crashed and several are used for both Swedish and English test pilot operations. Many have been scrapped to obtain "free" spare parts, so redundancy is very modest."

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Exact numbers from 2014:

Index of the 204 individuals. [ 46 ]

• 98 operational aircrafts of the C / D version.
• 32 dismantled or destroyed.
• 28 on lease to the Czech Republic and Hungary.
• 24 stocked in hangars pending settlement.
• 12 have been sold to Thailand
• 4 have been used as test aircraft.
• 4 have crashed.
• 2 have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Sweden, and the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Thailand.

Now the question will be where those 24 stocked aircrafts are and if the Swedes have any potential customers, be it sales or leasing.

 

[isayyo2]

Exact numbers from 2014:

Index of the 204 individuals. [ 46 ]

• 98 operational aircrafts of the C / D version.
• 32 dismantled or destroyed.
• 28 on lease to the Czech Republic and Hungary.
• 24 stocked in hangars pending settlement.
• 12 have been sold to Thailand
• 4 have been used as test aircraft.
• 4 have crashed.
• 2 have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Sweden, and the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Thailand.

View attachment 658386

Now the question will be where those 24 stocked aircrafts are and if the Swedes have any potential customers, be it sales or leasing.

Now that's a great infographic! A little shocked how few "standby" airframes remain, but the Swedish E/F models are going to be new built now anyways.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Exact numbers from 2014:

Index of the 204 individuals. [ 46 ]

• 98 operational aircrafts of the C / D version.
• 32 dismantled or destroyed.
• 28 on lease to the Czech Republic and Hungary.
• 24 stocked in hangars pending settlement.
• 12 have been sold to Thailand
• 4 have been used as test aircraft.
• 4 have crashed.
• 2 have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Sweden, and the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Thailand.

View attachment 658386

Now the question will be where those 24 stocked aircrafts are and if the Swedes have any potential customers, be it sales or leasing.

Now that's a great infographic! A little shocked how few "standby" airframes remain, but the Swedish E/F models are going to be new built now anyways.

The thing is, since the Swedes want to keep 100 fighter jets and will build total of 60 E/F aircrafts, there obviously would be another 60 C/D Gripens getting mothballed or stripped of parts. That would mean some airframes retiring before 30 years of service, unless they deliver every single one of those first 36 aircrafts to be manufactured to Brazil before Swedish AF.

In my view, that is, while there are airforces who still operate MiG-21s, F-4s, F-5s, A-4s, Mirage 3s and Mirage F1s, a bit of a waste of a good aircraft.

 

[helmutkohl]

Exact numbers from 2014:

Index of the 204 individuals. [ 46 ]

• 98 operational aircrafts of the C / D version.
• 32 dismantled or destroyed.
• 28 on lease to the Czech Republic and Hungary.
• 24 stocked in hangars pending settlement.
• 12 have been sold to Thailand
• 4 have been used as test aircraft.
• 4 have crashed.
• 2 have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Sweden, and the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Thailand.

View attachment 658386

Now the question will be where those 24 stocked aircrafts are and if the Swedes have any potential customers, be it sales or leasing.

Now that's a great infographic! A little shocked how few "standby" airframes remain, but the Swedish E/F models are going to be new built now anyways.

The thing is, since the Swedes want to keep 100 fighter jets and will build total of 60 E/F aircrafts, there obviously would be another 60 C/D Gripens getting mothballed or stripped of parts. That would mean some airframes retiring before 30 years of service, unless they deliver every single one of those first 36 aircrafts to be manufactured to Brazil before Swedish AF.

In my view, that is, while there are airforces who still operate MiG-21s, F-4s, F-5s, A-4s, Mirage 3s and Mirage F1s, a bit of a waste of a good aircraft.

im surprised they dont think there is a market for these used C/Ds.
in many ways the Gripen to me is like an updated F-20, just with a delta canard.

should sell them to Vietnam. they have a ton of MiG-21s that could be replaced.

 

[isayyo2]

Exact numbers from 2014:

Index of the 204 individuals. [ 46 ]

• 98 operational aircrafts of the C / D version.
• 32 dismantled or destroyed.
• 28 on lease to the Czech Republic and Hungary.
• 24 stocked in hangars pending settlement.
• 12 have been sold to Thailand
• 4 have been used as test aircraft.
• 4 have crashed.
• 2 have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Sweden, and the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Thailand.

View attachment 658386

Now the question will be where those 24 stocked aircrafts are and if the Swedes have any potential customers, be it sales or leasing.

Now that's a great infographic! A little shocked how few "standby" airframes remain, but the Swedish E/F models are going to be new built now anyways.

The thing is, since the Swedes want to keep 100 fighter jets and will build total of 60 E/F aircrafts, there obviously would be another 60 C/D Gripens getting mothballed or stripped of parts. That would mean some airframes retiring before 30 years of service, unless they deliver every single one of those first 36 aircrafts to be manufactured to Brazil before Swedish AF.

In my view, that is, while there are airforces who still operate MiG-21s, F-4s, F-5s, A-4s, Mirage 3s and Mirage F1s, a bit of a waste of a good aircraft.

im surprised they dont think there is a market for these used C/Ds.
in many ways the Gripen to me is like an updated F-20, just with a delta canard.

should sell them to Vietnam. they have a ton of MiG-21s that could be replaced.

Thailand wants to buy another squadron, but their cash is non-existent for the next few years. Vietnam will be an interesting play, I think they’re getting P-3s and a coast guard cutter too. Maybe Saab could sweeten the deal with local manufacturing.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

im surprised they dont think there is a market for these used C/Ds.
in many ways the Gripen to me is like an updated F-20, just with a delta canard.

should sell them to Vietnam. they have a ton of MiG-21s that could be replaced.

Well, the problem is exactly that : it is the modern day equivalent of F-20. We all know what happened to F-20 once the US was okay with selling F-16s abroad without much compromise. There were some close calls like in Morocco, Korea and Bahrain but those never materialized. Taiwan was the other close call as well, but I wouldn't call the Taiwanese case a "general" case from which I could make an argument for other chances the F-20 had. I mean, the whole premise was to sell this plane where the F-16 wasn't allowed.

Gripen, quite frankly, shares the same problem to the F-20. Obviously very understandable since they use the same engine. Most of the times, anyone who does have a functional air force and an economy big enough to buy 4th gen fighter jet was able to buy F-16. Anyone who doesn't are more interested in the FA-50 since its orders of magnitude cheaper. And just like the F-20, Gripen's sales weren't spot free of corruption allegations.

 

[helmutkohl]

im surprised they dont think there is a market for these used C/Ds.
in many ways the Gripen to me is like an updated F-20, just with a delta canard.

should sell them to Vietnam. they have a ton of MiG-21s that could be replaced.

Well, the problem is exactly that : it is the modern day equivalent of F-20. We all know what happened to F-20 once the US was okay with selling F-16s abroad without much compromise. There were some close calls like in Morocco, Korea and Bahrain but those never materialized. Taiwan was the other close call as well, but I wouldn't call the Taiwanese case a "general" case from which I could make an argument for other chances the F-20 had. I mean, the whole premise was to sell this plane where the F-16 wasn't allowed.

Gripen, quite frankly, shares the same problem to the F-20. Obviously very understandable since they use the same engine. Most of the times, anyone who does have a functional air force and an economy big enough to buy 4th gen fighter jet was able to buy F-16. Anyone who doesn't are more interested in the FA-50 since its orders of magnitude cheaper. And just like the F-20, Gripen's sales weren't spot free of corruption allegations.

unlike the F-20 however, the Gripen at least has some solid user base, even if its small.
could be good for a country like Vietnam, an entry way to western muntions, but not a direct sale by the US, which might alarm China.

as for the F-16.. well not wanting to open a can of worms.. but is the F-16 superior to the Gripen?
at least looking at these older ones.. Gripen C/D vs F-16 block 50s and older

 

[Maro.Kyo]

im surprised they dont think there is a market for these used C/Ds.
in many ways the Gripen to me is like an updated F-20, just with a delta canard.

should sell them to Vietnam. they have a ton of MiG-21s that could be replaced.

Well, the problem is exactly that : it is the modern day equivalent of F-20. We all know what happened to F-20 once the US was okay with selling F-16s abroad without much compromise. There were some close calls like in Morocco, Korea and Bahrain but those never materialized. Taiwan was the other close call as well, but I wouldn't call the Taiwanese case a "general" case from which I could make an argument for other chances the F-20 had. I mean, the whole premise was to sell this plane where the F-16 wasn't allowed.

Gripen, quite frankly, shares the same problem to the F-20. Obviously very understandable since they use the same engine. Most of the times, anyone who does have a functional air force and an economy big enough to buy 4th gen fighter jet was able to buy F-16. Anyone who doesn't are more interested in the FA-50 since its orders of magnitude cheaper. And just like the F-20, Gripen's sales weren't spot free of corruption allegations.

unlike the F-20 however, the Gripen at least has some solid user base, even if its small.
could be good for a country like Vietnam, an entry way to western muntions, but not a direct sale by the US, which might alarm China.

as for the F-16.. well not wanting to open a can of worms.. but is the F-16 superior to the Gripen?
at least looking at these older ones.. Gripen C/D vs F-16 block 50s and older

There surely are some arguments to be made about the avionics, but size matters for the fighters, too, you know. At least I would take the F-16 Blk.50/52 over Gripen C/D for most of the cases, given that their costs are more or less equivalent. This was clearly the case in reality as well I feel.

As for potential customers of used Gripens in SEA region, I would rather count Vietnam out, as it doesn't seem to be the case that they are seriously considering a transition into western systems. They seem more than happy to stick with their Russian stuffs imo, unlike its neighbors Indonesia and Malaysia.

Countries like Thailand, Philippines and Malaysia are rather more suitable customers and 2 of them already have/are getting the Gripen. I think more Gripens in those countries is a possibility as well.

 

[Archibald]

The F-16 is superior to the F-20 / Grippen on one peculiar point: size and growth margins. The Tigershark and Gripen were designed as small and light as possible for historical reasons.

In the case of the F-20, it was obviously related to the F-5 legacy.

In the case of Gripen, the reason was called Viggen. When I first heard of the Gripen 25 years ago, I was shocked to see it was something like 20 or even 30% smaller than the Saab before it. Usually fighters grow larger and heavier with each generation, or at best stick close (Mirage III & 2000 are case in point).
Sweden deliberately went the opposite way but they pushed a little too far, the Gripen paid a price to that related to range and growth potential.

Gripen's bane is indeed the F-16 4500+ airframes production run that obviously led to a very large number of second or even third hand aircraft at absurdly low prices... this also befell the Mirage 2000 late variants and partially explains why post 2006 Dassault dropped it and concentrated on the Rafale. The 2000 was already a lost cause to F-16s and at the time, the Rafale was fast becoming a lost cause to the coming F-35 steamroller.

It is a shame because on paper at least, a Mirage 2000-20 (let's call it this way for the fun of it) could have benefited from digital FBW, a growth variant of the M88 plus all the shiny avionics and weaponry created for the Rafale.

 

[helmutkohl]

The F-16 is superior to the F-20 / Grippen on one peculiar point: size and growth margins. The Tigershark and Gripen were designed as small and light as possible for historical reasons.

In the case of the F-20, it was obviously related to the F-5 legacy.

In the case of Gripen, the reason was called Viggen. When I first heard of the Gripen 25 years ago, I was shocked to see it was something like 20 or even 30% smaller than the Saab before it. Usually fighters grow larger and heavier with each generation, or at best stick close (Mirage III & 2000 are case in point).
Sweden deliberately went the opposite way but they pushed a little too far, the Gripen paid a price to that related to range and growth potential.

Gripen's bane is indeed the F-16 4500+ airframes production run that obviously led to a very large number of second or even third hand aircraft at absurdly low prices...

I wonder if the lack of export success in the Viggen,
pushed them to reconsider size, and go back to a lighter design.. like the Draken which was successful.

i wish they stuck with the Splinter camo too

 

[TomcatViP]

It's hard to say that Gripen suffered from a lighter weight.
First, Gripen customers are not the same as those of the Falcon or M2K which have a far greater emphasis on expeditionary OP.
Secondly, the weight loss is mostly a result of CFRP. Had the M2K been upgraded that way, it would have weighted only a couple of hundred kilogrammes more.
Last but not least, Gripen avionics has always been in par with any medium fighter but the latest blocks F-16 at any time.
To this day, Gripen C/D have a radar equivalent in performance to that of a non AEASA Rafale (most of them). Their wide angle HUD and flat screen pannels were top notch at the time.

 

[kaiserd]

The Gripen is an excellent machine.
The problem is that the F-16 is also excellent and was the more mature design and because of the scale of the project behind it (including substantial US Military aid) would be invariably cheaper and more directly plugged into US weapon and system developments.
And with the F-16C and subsequent developments (conformal tanks etc.) the range/ payload advantage of the F-16 opened up (offering very meaningful advantage over the Gripen A-D, particularly for long range mission profiles and capacity in the strike fighter role.)
The Swedes themselves saw they needed more payload/ range capacity as reflected in the Gripen E/F. This doesn’t make the Gripen A-D a bad aircraft, there’s just a limit of how much capacity can be generated from an aircraft of a certain weight class of a given level of technology.
And if countries can buy a slightly heavier longer range and at least equally capable aircraft for less, it’s really not that hard a decision unless there are political aspects or other factors at play.

 

[helmutkohl]

The Gripen is an excellent machine.
The problem is that the F-16 is also excellent and was the more mature design and because of the scale of the project behind it (including substantial US Military aid) would be invariably cheaper and more directly plugged into US weapon and system developments.
And with the F-16C and subsequent developments (conformal tanks etc.) the range/ payload advantage of the F-16 opened up (offering very meaningful advantage over the Gripen A-D, particularly for long range mission profiles and capacity in the strike fighter role.)
The Swedes themselves saw they needed more payload/ range capacity as reflected in the Gripen E/F. This doesn’t make the Gripen A-D a bad aircraft, there’s just a limit of how much capacity can be generated from an aircraft of a certain weight class of a given level of technology.
And if countries can buy a slightly heavier longer range and at least equally capable aircraft for less, it’s really not that hard a decision unless there are political aspects or other factors at play.

so do you think the Gripen E/F solves what was missing in the A-D and keeps it within range of late development F-16s, despite sharing a lotof the same form factor as its predecessor?

 

[kaiserd]

At this stage it’s not really a “versus the F-16” game for the Gripen E/F anymore, the F-16 is also a niche player (though the fact that the F-16V or other new F-16s are likely significantly cheaper certainly won’t help prospective Gripen sales).
The reality is that the Gripen E/F keeps the Gripen alive and competitive versus the likes of the Typhoon and Rafale, but it is still living on relatively small potential sales and markets as the F-35s sells in far larger numbers and other countries look to develop and field their own domestic fighters, or just won’t be in a position to be allowed to buy and/ or afford the Gripen E/F (with the US being in a position to block any proposed export they wish to, though unlikely the Swedes would wish to pursue any such cases).
Don’t get me wrong I think for many countries everything else being equal for many countries the Gripen E/F would be a very sensible choice. But everything is seldom equal for such decisions (economics, budgets, local and international politics, details of off-set deals, development of local industries, etc.).

 

[helmutkohl]

At this stage it’s not really a “versus the F-16” game for the Gripen E/F anymore, the F-16 is also a niche player (though the fact that the F-16V or other new F-16s are likely significantly cheaper certainly won’t help prospective Gripen sales).

is the F-16V that much cheaper than the Gripen E/F?

i get arounnd 100-125 million USD for Gripen E/F based on the Brazil sale (including support and other items)

not sure about the f-16V, but the recent Slovak sale (not sure which version) seems to put their F-16 around 60 million?
although this link says the Taiwan one is about 122 million, roughly the same as Gripen

Taiwan secures bargain price for F-16Vs

Taiwan has officially appropriated NT$250 billion (US$8 billion) for buying 66 F-16V fighter jets from the US, and the money to pay for the single largest

asiatimes.com

 

[Maro.Kyo]

get arounnd 100-125 million USD for Gripen E/F based on the Brazil sale (including support and other items)

not sure about the f-16V, but the recent Slovak sale (not sure which version) seems to put their F-16 around 60 million?

IIRC the sales to Brazil was quite a desparate, do or bust kind of a deal. Would be hard to expect those numbers offered everywhere.

Slovak deal for Block 70/72 was around $170 million program cost per aircraft, iirc. The aircraft themselves are just around $50~60 million flyaway.

 

[red admiral]

Brazil is the only major export for Gripen. All the others are small numbers, and most of those "exports" are actually leases of aircraft Saab already built. Far fewer than Typhoon or Rafale.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Brazil is the only major export for Gripen. All the others are small numbers, and most of those "exports" are actually leases of aircraft Saab already built. Far fewer than Typhoon or Rafale.

40, to be exact, were those leased/sold from the original Flygvapnet order. Afaik only the SAR has bought a non-Flygvapnet Gripen C/D.

 

[helmutkohl]

hmm just for personal reference, but probably useful for others here

Exports (includes planned)

Gripen C/D
South Africa - 26 (counting the 2 lost)
Thailand - 18
Czech - 14 (lease)
Hungary - 14 (lease to buy)

Gripen E/F
Brazil - 28 (but likely another purchase of 72)

Gripen CD Total - 72
All Gripen total - 100 (or up to 172)

Viggen - 0 exports
Draken - 125 (24 Austria 50 Finland 51 Denmark).

if the Brazilian order gets fully realized, then Gripen could be more successful on the export market than the Draken?

on a related note
Golden Eagle (64 exports thus far, Indonesia 16, Iraq 24, Philippines 12, Thai 12)
not bad either, close to that of the C/D Gripens

 

[Maro.Kyo]

hmm just for personal reference, but probably useful for others here

Exports (includes planned)

Gripen C/D
South Africa - 26 (counting the 2 lost)
Thailand - 18
Czech - 14 (lease)
Hungary - 14 (lease to buy)

Gripen E/F
Brazil - 28 (but likely another purchase of 72)

Gripen CD Total - 72
All Gripen total - 100 (or up to 172)

Viggen - 0 exports
Draken - 125 (24 Austria 50 Finland 51 Denmark).

if the Brazilian order gets fully realized, then Gripen could be more successful on the export market than the Draken?

on a related note
Golden Eagle (64 exports thus far, Indonesia 16, Iraq 24, Philippines 12, Thai 12)
not bad either, close to that of the C/D Gripens

Small corrections,

Brazil's initial batch are 36 aircrafts. Same number for the second batch as well and probably even for the third batch, given the discussed number for the additional Gripen order was 72. So 108 aircrafts in total divided in 3 batches of 36 aircrafts.

Thailand is getting another 4 Golden Eagles. Actually, I can't find any reportings about those 4 additional Gripens for Thailand. Maybe you've mixed it up with the T-50?

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Photos from 2018 during the Bulgarian fighter jet program.

It seems to be that the MS20 is divided into 2 iterations : one from 2016 and further improved, more radical upgrade package that was planned for 2020.

It reminds me of Rafale standard F4-1 and F4-2. I'd say the Gripen MS20 (2020) is comparable to the F4-2 in terms of that the F4-2 is much more radical change over the F4-1.

I'm not sure though, if that plan of developing a further improved MS20 package (MS20 (2020))actually realised or not. As we know the Gripen lost out in every single fighter jet program since Brazil, including the one in Bulgaria where these slides were presented. Those articles from Janes or FG and other defence related news outlets were only mentioning the components of MS20 (2016) when reporting the recent upgrade of Thai Gripens to MS20. (in every article I've read the Mk.4 radar or improved ECCM planned for 2020 were not mentioned but only the "new radar modes", which according to these slides seems to be LRS and LPI mode.)

Courtsey @gripennews and @krasi_grozev on twitter.

 

[chestpain]

View attachment 658546View attachment 658547View attachment 658548

Photos from 2018 during the Bulgarian fighter jet program.

It seems to be that the MS20 is divided into 2 iterations : one from 2016 and further improved, more radical upgrade package that was planned for 2020.

It reminds me of Rafale standard F4-1 and F4-2. I'd say the Gripen MS20 (2020) is comparable to the F4-2 in terms of that the F4-2 is much more radical change over the F4-1.

I'm not sure though, if that plan of developing a further improved MS20 package (MS20 (2020))actually realised or not. As we know the Gripen lost out in every single fighter jet program since Brazil, including the one in Bulgaria where these slides were presented. Those articles from Janes or FG and other defence related news outlets were only mentioning the components of MS20 (2016) when reporting the recent upgrade of Thai Gripens to MS20. (in every article I've read the Mk.4 radar or improved ECCM planned for 2020 were not mentioned but only the "new radar modes", which according to these slides seems to be LRS and LPI mode.)

Courtsey @gripennews and @krasi_grozev on twitter.

FYI "MS20" has little to do with 2020 - it's version 20 and much older; in fact, it rolled out in Sweden in 2016, Czech and Hungary in 2018 and so on.
What you seem to assume as a new, big, new "MS20-2020" upgrade package, that's probably either a regular minor (dot) upgrade on MS20 or the next big standalone, new one that will come later, with the new MK4 AESA radar etc.

BTW while Saab kept touting Meteor, SDB and other integration, I recall an interview dropping the fact that they silently bumped the radar range about 50-60% in MS20 as well (presumably by upgrading the computing unit including the algo.)
Their range was ahead of old F16s until they got the more powerful APG68 upgrade (not sure starting with which block) then MS20 brought it back to be competitive again. That being said Gripen radars can work together over large distances, their proprietary network link is a lot more advanced and modern than L16 in F16s so I doubt it is an issue for them.

Your comment on Gripen losing everywhere vs MS20 makes no sense to me - Gripen C/D lost against Block 70s purely due to American political pressure, like in Bulgaria, and C/D is basically a budget option, not a top proposition and MS20 was never about to make it to compete with a new Block 70 but to extend the weaponry of existing Gripens well beyond Block 50-70.
Gripen E, the current top offer, is competing in Finland, Canada and India and it's an open secret that Czechs and Hungarians, both are in the middle of their largest military modernization and rearmament, will both order at least a squadron of Es in the next year or two.
I suspect they will simultaneously upgrade the order of their existing C/D fleets to Mk4 and everything the new package brings. Saab is already marketing the AESA etc upgrades for every Gripen-flying country and just recently Sweden contracted Saab to upgrade their own C/D fleet and keep them flying and upgrading for years to come:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1389874940912996354

View: https://twitter.com/Saab/status/1389874940912996354


They have already started boosting their overall military size and budget, I suspect the 60 E and 40 C/D (6 squadron) will end up being a lot more, like 120-140 fighters in total

 

[isayyo2]

@chestpain
I like your optimism and do hope to see further orders from existing customers too

 

[Maro.Kyo]

(presumably by upgrading the computing unit including the algo.)

You are correct. It's got a new back end with increased signal processing capabilities, meaning improved SNR. New radar mkdes as well. The actual prototype was tested in early-mid 2010s. Mk.5 is an AESA that uses the same back end to Mk.4 but has a new antenna. Was also tested a couple of year back in late 2010s. What I mean is that I'm not sure if anyone other than the Swedes themsleves bought this complete package, since the news articles around MS20 upgrade for Thailand doesn't mention Mk.4 radar.

Your comment on Gripen losing everywhere vs MS20 makes no sense to me - Gripen C/D lost against Block 70s purely due to American political pressure,

It doesn't really matter if that was down to diplomatic pressure or other things like performance and price-value. The thing is it was beaten up by the F-16 time and time, and that could hinder the furturenof the program.

 

[TomcatViP]

More appropriatly placed here:

View: https://youtu.be/rot0DSccTU0

PLAAF J-11 beat RTAF Gripen 16-0 on first day of Falcon Strike 2015 – Alert 5

(title is misleading)

 

[helmutkohl]

translation..

Hungary will buy IRIS-T as part of the MS20 upgrade for its Gripen C-Ds

Megvették a világ legkorszerűbb légiharc-rakétáit a magyar Gripenekhez

A legkorszerűbb légiharc-rakétákkal bÅvül a Magyar Honvédség Gripen harci gépeinek fegyverzete - olvasható Maróth Gáspár védelmi fejlesztésekért felelÅs kormánybiztos titkárságának közleményében.

www.portfolio.hu

 

[chestpain]

Lezárultak a tárgyalások - Megvan, milyen fejlesztéseket kapnak a magyar Gripenek

A magyar védelmi fejlesztésekért felelÅs kormánybiztosi hivatal és a svéd hadfelszerelési hivatal (FMV) sikeresen lezárta a magyar Gripen vadászrepülÅgép-flotta MS20 Block 2 képességfejlesztésérÅl szóló tárgyalásokat - jelentette be frissen a SAAB Group.

www.portfolio.hu

Hungary announced they have ordered the MS20 Block 2 upgrade and even disclosed some of the details:

- radar upgrade to Mark4
- updated/new jamming and ECCM
- Link16 latest version
- latest secure (encrypted) communication systems
- NATO IFF Mode 5
- GBU-49 and Meteor integration*

*As a hint of the HunAF's upcoming weapon modernization, Meteor was already displayed last Summer on a Gripen along the IRIS-T, at the Kecskemet Air Show 2021 - similar to the recent IRIS-T order, I expect the Meteor will arrive after the Block2 upgrades:

It's interesting: the Mark4 was available since 2017, I would have sworn that the Hungarian ones, being leased Swedish Air Force planes, already received it...


Considering all this info I bet they will also buy the Mark 5 AESA upgrade (earlier I made a typo, Mk5 is the AESA one) in a few years: the planes will be paid off by 2026 and become Hungarian property, with easily another 10-15 years left in them (due to excellent maintenance and average hours.)

Saab to Deliver Upgrade for Hungarian Gripen Fleet

The Hungarian Government Commissioner Office responsible for defence development and the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) have successfully completed the negotiations for the MS20 Block 2 capability upgrade to the Hungarian fleet of Gripen fighter aircraft. Saab will deliver the...

www.saab.com

Hungary to upgrade Gripens

Hungary is to upgrade its Saab Gripen C/D combat aircraft to the latest MS20 Block 2 standard, the original equipment manufacturer announced on 12 January.

www.janes.com