SAAB JAS 39A/B/C/D Gripen

TomcatViP said:
It's probably one of the cheapest way to Meteor.
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For sure. Their security context is always about their neighbors, most of them with large areas gained from historic Hungarian lands in 1920, still full of Hungarian-speaking natives - I think that was a lesson for centuries to come...
Meteor easily provides air superiority against refurbished old F-16 and Sukhois (Romania and Ukraine), basically none of their neighbor will have anything comparable anytime soon (sans perhaps Croatia, I bet they will eventually buy a few for their new Rafales but they are historically rather friendly, Hungary even supplied them weapons during the Yugo wars.)

The question is more about the numbers, I think.
Having a single squadron isn't really an air force, it's more like an airspace policing force, nothing more. Considering the red hot issues around Ukraine and the order of dozens of F-16s by Romania, albeit 40+ years old planes, these suggest the Hungarians must be looking at least another squadron - of what, that's the question, more upgraded C/D or new Es? (I think we can exclude going with a second vendor at this point.)
After the Finnish loss Saab desperately needs some *new* sales. Soon more Rafale will be flying than Gripens, if they won't bag something this year...
 
I don't think that's that simple. I mean owning a missile that has range and air superiority.
To truly score a hit, any long range missile must be able to find its target and have a superiorly robust ECCM. Finding a target means also being passed coordinates from a survivable airframe able to refresh them. Upgraded F-16 are quite credible in that domain. S-27 also, at least with the tremendous power of their radar suite and acceleration.
Meteor mostly widen the buffer zone from where you are able to safely operate against pseudo-static enemy systems. Think long range Sam kill zone.

Meteor is then mostly a defensive countermeasure able to extend owner credibility over IADS deployment. Not an aggressive capability to wage war against any adversary. It fits perfectly Hungarian air force needs.
 
TomcatViP said:
I don't think that's that simple. I mean owning a missile that has range and air superiority.
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Well, it is still BVR 101: if someone can fire at you 20-30-40 clicks earlier than you can fire at him, and his missile has a much larger no-escape zone, then you won't engage, I guarantee you. :p
Granted, engagement is not only about one-on-ones but nevertheless fighters carrying AMRAAM, as of today, have nothing against fighters carrying Meteor in BVR fights.
TomcatViP said:
To truly score a hit, any long range missile must be able to find its target and have a superiorly robust ECCM. Finding a target means also being passed coordinates from a survivable airframe able to refresh them.
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I'm not sure what do you mean - Gripen C/D is perfectly capable to maximize the advantage of Meteor and IRIS-T, every possible way.
And if we specifically look at in-flight updates then the Gripen was ahead of F-16 long time ago, not to mention their far more advanced peer-to-peer networked warfare skills - something F-16 basically does not have at all, nor will ever have.
Not only that but IRIS-T is LOAL (and can even act as an interceptor.)

TomcatViP said:
Upgraded F-16 are quite credible in that domain.
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Hold on: in what domain any 40-y old F-16A, even if "upgraded" to Block 15-20 MLU, is "quite credible" against a Meteor or IRIS-T or, in general, an up-to-date Gripen? I'm all ears! :)
Just looking at the most basic thing, even those Mk3+ Gripen radars (updated Mk3s, around 2018, apparently the current state of those Gripens in Hungary) are superior to old APG-66 v2 (F-16A MLU) radars - and the Mk4 will give the Gripens another advantage over the old F-16As, I'd guess anywhere between 50-100% in terms of range.

TomcatViP said:
S-27 also, at least with the tremendous power of their radar suite and acceleration.
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I'm not sure what do you mean by "tremendous" - I vaguely recall both max output and its max radar range is below even the updated Mk3 of the PS05... or not? :confused:

TomcatViP said:
Meteor mostly widen the buffer zone from where you are able to safely operate against pseudo-static enemy systems. Think long range Sam kill zone.

Meteor is then mostly a defensive countermeasure able to extend owner credibility over IADS deployment. Not an aggressive capability to wage war against any adversary. It fits perfectly Hungarian air force needs.
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Well, that's exactly my point. :) There's no way any neighbor without Meteor will pick a fight with fighters carrying these missiles - unless they have quantitative advantage, hence my assumption of a pending Hungarian order for at least another squadron.
 
They spilled some beans about the Gripen's future and further fighter developments in Hungary:
  • confirmed Meteor and GBU-49 will be also entering service (as part of the MS20 Block II upgrade package), without mentioning time frame (final decision was made, they are working on allocating budget etc.)
  • they are already engaged with Elbit regarding TARGO II including joining the development (I'm guessing the fact that Elbit offers this HMS for helis, fighters and cargo planes makes it ideal to co-develop their custom version in Hungary?)
  • with all these upgrades they expect their C/D Block II will be technologically superior to most fourth-gen fighters (sounds like a polite bragging to me, aimed at certain neighbors :D)
  • no plan for fifth-gen fighters, F-35 would make little sense in terms of ROI; they expect a technological jump by 2030-40 in sixth-gen
  • they are watching both FCAS and Tempest, utilizing their existing political and industrial channels to gather information about the directions of both projects (and meanwhile are clearly ramping up the build-out of an industrial ecosystem: a new Airbus heli plant starts production in Gyula in July, Embraer's new R&D office already open in Budapest, last year they bought the Czech Aero V. aircraft maker and there's a mysterious joint development program with Saab, with pretty much zero info about it)
  • on the other hand they did confirm their plan to set up a 2nd fighter squadron and that it only makes sense to stay with Gripens (i.e. Gripen E), no final decision so far (my guess is they are working on budgeting issues - the current global inflationary cycle still seems to be on an upward trajectory and it's pretty rough on the HUF, and with elections coming in April they need to focus on securing the votes so measures supporting living standards clearly take priority over a new fighter squadron...)
Interesting. My bet is on the latter, they will be re-elected and will order a new E squadron this year - sans some global economic downturn, that would probably put new orders on hold.
 
chestpain said:
  • with all these upgrades they expect their C/D Block II will be technologically superior to most fourth-gen fighters (sounds like a polite bragging to me, aimed at certain neighbors :D)
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interesting news. about this part, which neighbor?
 
helmutkohl said:
chestpain said:
  • with all these upgrades they expect their C/D Block II will be technologically superior to most fourth-gen fighters (sounds like a polite bragging to me, aimed at certain neighbors :D)
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interesting news. about this part, which neighbor?
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Ukraine, Romania and Serbia, respectively (though Serbia is only if something bad breaks out down there, on the long run.)
Czech can match everything (same Gripens), obviously, and since Croatians are getting Rafales they will also be roughly on par, assuming they also get Meteor (no IRIS for Rafales, as I remember.)
 
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www.seznamzpravy.cz

Stíhačky za miliardy chce vláda řešit v červenci, Švédové přišli s nabídkou - Seznam Zprávy

Vláda Petra Fialy chce v červenci řešit, jaké stíhačky budou čeští piloti používat po konci pronájmu současných gripenů. Na výběr jsou americké nebo švédské stíhačky. Švédové nabízejí ponechání současných gripenů téměř zdarma.
www.seznamzpravy.cz www.seznamzpravy.cz

TLDR: Sweden tells the Czechs they can keep their Gripes for free
earlier they were considering ending the lease and going for F-35s
 
isayyo2 said:
helmutkohl said:
TLDR: Sweden tells the Czechs they can keep their Gripes for free
earlier they were considering ending the lease and going for F-35s
Click to expand...
Desperation, or good negotiating?
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Just good sense, The Swedes probably weren't going to have much luck reselling those used aircraft, (the market isn't much interested in used right now) . And they would love it if the Czechs would keep buying spare parts and upgrades from Saab instead of going elsewhere. Plus, it's a good way to say "thanks for letting us into NATO."
 
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chestpain said:
TomcatViP said:
"It's probably one of the cheapest way to Meteor.
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"For sure. Their security context is always about their neighbors, most of them with large areas gained from historic Hungarian lands in 1920, still full of Hungarian-speaking natives - I think that was a lesson for centuries to come... ... "
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History is full of ethnic exclaves in every long-settled country.
For example, the first wave of Ukrainian-speaking immigrants to Canada actually came from the Austro-Hungarian territory between Odesa and Lviv in present-day Ukraine. Back a century ago, the Austro-Hungarian Empire's eastern-most border was well into modern day Ukraine. Ukraine's borders have been redrawn - so many times - by invaders from Austrian, German, French, Hungarian, Kazack, Lithuanian, Mongol, Polish, Russian, Turkish, etc. that any modern border-line on a map is at best temporary.
The modern challenge is getting along politely with all these ethnic exclaves.
 
helmutkohl said:
TLDR: Sweden tells the Czechs they can keep their Gripes for free
earlier they were considering ending the lease and going for F-35s
Click to expand...
The question has been already decided several months ago. We (I am Czech) are going to buy 24 F-35s, it is almost a "public secret" in the Czech defence community, everybody here knows it and the government will officially announce it soon. No chance for Gripen this way or another.
 
Very detailed interview about Hungary's Gripen updates (with some new info about their incoming Milleniums as well; all directly from officials):
- MS20 Block2 is split to 2.1 and 2.2 upgrades, no comment about their feature list
- 2.1 by sometime in 2023 and 2.2 by 2024 – I suspect it's due to financial reasons: they are paying off new Leopard 2A7+ and PzH bns, hundreds of MRAPS on a new 4x4 platform (Gidran), and started receiving the first batch of their incoming brand-new 240+ Lynx IFVs, Skyrangers etc, all being built on the Lynx tracked platform
- the reason they went with Elbit's Targo II for HMS was not just that it is well ahead of BAE's promised, yet-to-be-materialized Striker II (first-gen Striker I = Cobra I in Swedish C/D service), but the Targo II is already available for Brazil's Gripen E/F, making it future-proof; they also reached out to Elbit to see if they can join its development program directly – to me these news are the most solid hints about their future Gripen E orders..
- the direction the upgrades are developed along is mainly set by Saab (obviously), but it's almost an a' la carte for the customers, they can pick their own bundles (due to their requirements based on the role of their air forces)
- their Gripens are halfway into their lifecycle, it's only logical to keep upgrading the SW/HW; as MS20 really upgraded their capabilities a future MS21 will likely bring further new features; the lease is paid off by 2026 and they will keep flying them
- looking around: when compared to the latest F16 Block 70 (Slovakia is expecting a few by 2026) they are already ahead of it many ways, except the Mk5 AESA radar – they didn't say it but I expect it to be part of that 2024 upgrade (Block 2.2)
- looking around: the old, used F-16 in Romania are ex-Portuguese Block 20 MLUs with rather limited capabilities, and their expected purchase of more used F-16 from Norway won't be much different (sans their different original configs)
- the better missiles, radars make a difference in missions too (they are in the Baltic Air Policing program) hence all the Meteors, IRIS-Ts etc.
 
just a question, some time ago there were suggestions that Ukraine would recieve used Gripen-C's in the future (although no official deal is made, yet).
but i was just wondering, given that they managed to integrate the AGM-88 HARM on theyre MiG-29's and Su-27's, how difficult would it be to integrate the missile on the Gripen, being a western-type aircraft, i guess it wont be that hard, the gripen would be an ideal SEAD platform.
 
Upgrade for Sweden's Gripen Fleet via Saab

Saab and the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) have today signed a contract and Saab has received an order to ensure the continued operability of and provide capability enhancements to the fighter aircraft JAS 39 Gripen C/D. The order value is approximately SEK 3.5 billion and the contract period is 2023-2029. The contract also includes options that enable FMV to place additional orders for capability enhancements during 2023.
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The enhancements will provide Sweden with a more effective and powerful fighter capability. The aircraft will be equipped with a new version of the engine, which will enhance flight performance. A more effective electronic warfare system will also be introduced and the upgrade will create conditions for increased attack capability with a new payload.
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www.saab.com

Saab Receives Order for Upgrade of Gripen C/D

Saab and the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) have today signed a contract and Saab has received an order to ensure the continued operability of and provide capability enhancements to the fighter aircraft JAS 39 Gripen C/D. The order value is approximately SEK 3.5 billion and the...
www.saab.com www.saab.com
 
The Czechs are negotiating their Gripen lease by a few more years as a hedge against F-35 delays:
“Negotiations with the U.S. do not close the door for other platforms. The basic goal of the Czech Republic has always been and remains to be able to protect our airspace with our own means even during the transition to a new platform,” said Defense Spokesman David Jareš to Novinky when queried on the talks with Sweden.
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GTX said:
TomcatViP said:
12 isn't that much for a country with a territory the size of Philippine.
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It's not the size of the country that drives things here but rather the size of their budget...
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agreed, the Philippines always had a small armed forces for its size due to their budget limitations.

Another thing worth pointing out.. they didn't operate fighter jets for some time after retiring their F-8s.
They only recently started re-developing fast jet operational skills through the purchase of the FA-50s.
So the next step up would be a small number of Gripen or F-16
 
The Swedish government has now formally announced plans to provide training to pilots and ground personnel from Ukraine on the operation and maintenance of JAS-39 Gripen fighter jets. This is in response to a Ukrainian desire for an "operational evaluation" of the type, which could imply interest in acquiring these aircraft.
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www.thedrive.com

Ukrainian Fighter Pilots Will Get Training On Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen

Sweden say Ukraine wants an "operational evaluation" of Gripen, which could point to an interest in acquiring the jets in the future.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
Latest Sweden aid package released today for Ukraine includes Gripen test flights for UAF pilots:

www.reuters.com

Sweden inks $24 million support package to Ukraine

The Swedish government has decided on a 12th support package to Ukraine, worth 250 million crowns ($23.7 million), that includes Ukrainian pilots test flying the Nordic country's Gripen fighter jets, it said on Friday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
I'm sceptical about multiple fighter types potentially being offered to Ukraine. The aircraft might be very good but the logistics of operating and maintaining multiple types would be a pain. ... assuming that the aircraft will survive long enough to need maintenance.
 
most likely sweden is lookin at long term buy later on perhaps years from now.
 
Presumably. However, they have so few Gripen that switching to the E/F won't affect much their logistics.
 

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