Russia vs Ukraine: Crimean Crisis

[bigvlada]

I am perpetually perplexed by all the bullcrap around the world with, say, the Russian government worrying specifically about non-Russian citizens in a non-Russian nation simply because they happen to speak Russian, or have similar ethnic roots. To me it makes as much sense as the US government worrying about the fifth-generation descendants of American citizens who, say, gave up their US citizenship and moved to Argentina a century ago, over the *other* Argentinians.

When you have people like these in the government, you should be worried, not perplexed.

Ihor Tenyukh – interim defense minister and a member of Svoboda’s political council. Formerly commander of Ukraine’s navy, in 2008, during Russia’s war with Georgia, he ordered Ukrainian warships to block the entrance of the Russian Navy to the bay of Sevastopol.
Andriy Parubiy – National Security Council chief, co-founded Svoboda back when it was the “Social National” (ahem!) party.
Dmytro Yarosh – deputy head of the National Security Council, i.e. the police, and the founder-leader of "Right Sector," a militant neo-Nazi paramilitary group that took charge of security in the Maiden.
Oleh Makhnitsky – Svoboda member of parliament, is prosecutor-general.
Oleksandr Sych – Svoboda parliamentarian and the party’s chief ideologist, is deputy prime minister for economic affairs.
Serhiy Kvit – a leading member of Svoboda, is to head up the Education Ministry.
Andriy Moknyk – the new Minister of Ecology, has been Svoboda’s envoy to other European fascist parties. Last year, he met with representatives of Italy’s violent neo-fascist gang, Forza Nuovo.
Ihor Shvaika – agro-oligarch and a member of Svoboda, has been appointed Minister of Agriculture. One of the richest men in the country, His massive investments in agriculture would seem to indicate a slight conflict of interest.


EU supports these people. I wonder what the German public thinks about their government supporting the Nazis in Ukraine?
Those two organizations (Svoboda party and Right Sector paramilitaries) want ethnically clean Ukraine, and according to them, anyone who does not like it should move to Russia. I won’t go into details about their anti Russian rants, but those people want nuclear weapons, in a country which possess stockpiles of nuclear waste and missile technology. Just what the world needs, nazis with dirty A-bomb. People who call Chechen terrorists of Doku Umarov for help in a fight against Russia.
I don’t know, perhaps their strategy is to poke the bear with stick enough times in order to provoke a full invasion and then call for help from the west in order to fight the “Communists”.
Let’s go to the timetable of events again.
EU forced Ukraine to choose between EU led customs union and Russian led one. Look at the problem from the perspective of Ukrainian industry. I’ll mention two examples:
Avto Zaz produces local version of Dewoo Lanos. A mediocre car, but because all the parts are produced in Ukraine, which has free trade agreement with Russia, they can export them there without taxes (Serbia for instance has that agreement too, but because not all the parts for Fiat 500L are made in Serbia, it cannot export them without taxes). In fact, 80% of their production goes to Russia. With EU affiliation, there would be regular import taxes for Russian market, and more expensive gas for Ukrainian industry. They would be uncompetitive in both east and west.
Motor Sich company from the same city (Zaporozhye) produces aircraft and helicopter engines for Russian market. If Ukraine moves solely towards the west, they would be more expensive than their Russian competitors, and again, no one would buy the stuff they make on the west.
In both cases, the conversion to western standards is possible (hell, we managed to bring Zastava which produced Yugo back from the dead J) but who would foot the bill? US? EU? For a country that has several times the population of Greece?
Can anyone in those circumstances blame the former Ukrainian government from choosing the Russian offer instead of EU one? EU is to blame here, they forced them to choose instead of trying to make them an offer which does not prevent Ukraine from joining the Russian customs union if it is in Ukraine’s best interest.
US foreign policy is in standard fuck the EU, let’s stick it to the Russians mode, without any regards to consequences to the people involved.

People who want Ukraine as EU member protested, and they had all the right to do so. Protests were peaceful and on one occasion there were 200.000 participants. The reality of their wishes is another matter. They had the chance to vote in the 2015 elections.
The number of protesters declined as far right organizations took the initiative in the protests. In the end, president and opposition (with EU signatories as well) signed a treaty on February 21st which called for an early elections in December. A few days later, the paramilitaries stormed the parliament and new government was formed, with one of the three opposition parties being Svoboda. The legality of the government is dubious, having no parties from the south and east of the country and with questionable parliament voting which ousted the former president.
EU recognized that government, and sent the message that it is okay to topple the government using nazis if the goal is right.
I won’t speculate about the sniper killings. EU (according to intercepted phone conversation between baroness Eshton and Estonian foreign minister) contemplated the possibility that one of the opposition groups hired them to shoot both protesters and the police. But I have a problem with the new government not investigating those killings.

Given how good crony capitalism has been to Putin, he's unlikely trying to reconstitute the USSR as such... but a Russian Empire seems not unlikely. Anyone willing to expend political capital and military forces on a mission of such dubious value as ethnicity is capable of pretty much anything.

Wait, where have I seen that before?
Ukraine 2014 Is Grenada 1983
Posted: 03/04/2014 3:29 pm EST Updated: 03/04/2014 5:59 pm EST
Before the U.S. gets too worked up about the Russian "invasion" of Ukraine, it should recall its own invasion in 1983 of the idyllic island of Grenada some 100 miles from the United States. America invaded Grenada to install a U.S.-friendly government after a Communist coup had led to the breakdown of law and order on the island. The pretext for the invasion was the danger the situation posed for the lives of a few hundred U.S. medical students on Grenada. I was in favor of that invasion. After all, the Cold War was in full bloom, and like President Reagan, I did not want a Communist foothold in America's backyard.
Well, Ukraine and Georgia are Russia's backyard. Russian President Vladimir Putin made that clear in 2008 by making the Bush administration back down in its attempt to pull Georgia into NATO. When Mikheil Saakashvili, the tempestuous leader of Georgia, then lobbed artillery shells on ethnic Russians in their Georgian enclaves, it gave Russia the pretext to invade Georgia, rout its armed forces and demonstrate its intent to not let NATO and Western influence creep up to Russia's borders. President Bush huffed and puffed but could do nothing to reverse Russia's actions.
Flash forward to December 2013. When Viktor Yanukovych, the Kremlin-leaning president of Ukraine, vetoed an association agreement between his country and the European Union that would have established a free-trade zone and bolstered political ties between the former Soviet republic and the EU, Ukrainians who favored closer EU ties turned out to protest in the streets. A highly charged political drama began to unfold in Kiev. It was a drama driven at its core by Russia's belief that, for its vital national interests, Ukraine could not be allowed to tilt towards the EU, for many reasons, chief among them Russia's alarm at being surrounded by NATO, the Western military alliance led by the United States and including the Central and Eastern European countries of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, Albania, and Croatia. (It did not help that the State Department sent an American diplomat to publicly demonstrate solidarity with the protesters by handing out cookies and openly supporting their cause.)
Notwithstanding the establishment of a NATO-Russia Council and other hand-holding gestures loudly trumpeted by Mr. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO's secretary general, Russia still believes NATO to be an existential threat to its security. I discovered this first-hand during the Brussels release of my book on NATO three years ago, when I asked Dmitri Rogozin, then Russia's ambassador to NATO, whether he thought Russia would cozy up to the new, kinder, gentler NATO. The big, burly ambassador, who is now in charge of Russia's defense industry, leaned over to me and said, "Kashmeri, if your grandmother grows whiskers, does she become your grandfather?"
Unless the U.S. and the EU want to start another cold war in the heart of Europe, they need to recognize Russia's interests as they are, and not as the West would like them to be. With that in mind, here are my two cents' worth of advice for the Obama administration:
Stop making threats to financially strangle Russia through sanctions. They will not work. Yes, the world is an interconnected, seamless global enterprise now. But that means the U.S. and the EU are also plugged into the same global network and cannot escape being hurt by such steps. No wonder Britain is already drawing up plans to ensure that any EU action against Russia over Ukraine will exempt the City of London.
Let the EU take the lead to work out a diplomatic route forward in this debacle. The Obama administration would do well to remember that the Georgian war ended with EU mediation, with EU monitors on the ground to track the ceasefire agreement. The Russians agreed to this arrangement because they did not trust Americans. They still don't.
Stop the talk about NATO expansion to Georgia and Ukraine. And for heaven's sake stop NATO's secretary general from making bellicose statements against Russia. He is the head of a military alliance that is part of the problem.
Finally, the Obama administration should also recall that Vladimir Putin has won every KGB award there is. He is surely not for turning.
So let's cool the temperature and "jaw, jaw" instead of "war, war," as Winston Churchill was fond of saying.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarwar-kashmeri/ukraine-2014-is-grenada-1983_b_4897596.html

US and Russia will respect the international law only when it suits them. Nothing new under the sun. Just another “unique case” declaration of independence.

Neat:

Ukraine Secession Referendum Does Not Have a ‘No’ OptionCheck one of the following. If neither is checked, the ballot is rejected as illegitimate:
[list type=disc]
[*] “Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a citizen of the Russian Federation?”’
[*] “Do you support restoration of 1992 Crimean Constitution and Crimea’s status as a part of Ukraine?”
[/list] The second option is *not* a "I want to keep things as they are" vote, but a vote for Crimean autonomy.

Status quo is already gone, the government wants to revert to the previous constitution which gives more power to the government and less to the president. Without referendum I might add. This is the reaction to that decision. Option a is independence, option b is going back to Crimean constitution of 1992 which defines Crimea as state in Ukraine.

Sure. To some people, murder, rape, genocide, theft all on industrial scales all make some sort of sense.

There are parts of the world where these terms are used to describe the “taming” of the “wild” west.

The funny thing is, new Russian troops coming to Crimea had no insignia but forgot to remove Russian military licence plates from their trucks in first few days.
As to the questions of EU sanctions, the press photographed one page of UK’s delegation papers on EU summit. Chelsea fans will be relieved, UK would insist that City of London financial market will be exempted from any decision regarding the sanctions against Russian oligarchs citizens.

Meanwhile, David Blackadder Cameron is executing the standard four stage strategy of Foreign Office:
We have got to make sure we have Russia and Ukraine talking to each other, and demonstrate that we will help the people of Ukraine in their hour of need, and send a message to the Russian government that what has happened is unacceptable and if any further actions were taken that would be even more unacceptable and would require further consequences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSD1d-6P6qI#t=9

 

[bigvlada]

Meanwhile, Russian propaganda is in full CNN/FOX mode.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Cyber Snake plagues Ukraine networks (ft.com article, registration may be required)

An aggressive cyber weapon called Snake has infected dozens of Ukrainian computer networks including government systems in one of the most sophisticated attacks of recent years.

Also known as Ouroboros, after the serpent of Greek mythology that swallowed its own tail, experts say it is comparable in its complexity with Stuxnet, the malware that was found to have disrupted Iran’s uranium enrichment programme in 2010.

The cyber weapon has been deployed most aggressively since the start of last year ahead of protests that climaxed two weeks ago with the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovich’s government.

Ouroboros gives its operators unfettered access to networks for surveillance purposes. But it can also act as a highly advanced “digital beachhead” that could destroy computer networks with wide-ranging repercussions for the public.
Cyber warfare experts have long warned that digital weapons could shut off civilian power or water supplies, cripple banks or even blow up industrial sites that depend on computer-controlled safety programmes.

The origins of Ouroboros remain unclear, but its programmers appear to have developed it in a GMT+4 timezone – which encompasses Moscow – according to clues left in the code, parts of which also contain fragments of Russian text. It is believed to be an upgrade of the Agent.BTZ attack that penetrated US military systems in 2008.

The malware has infected networks run by the Kiev government and systemically important organisations. Lithuanian systems have also been disproportionately hit by it.
Ouroboros has been in development for nearly a decade and is too sophisticated to have been programmed by an individual or a non-state organisation, according to the applied intelligence unit at BAE Systems, which was the first to identify and analyse the malware.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Remember the Morgenthau Plan?

Nope. I cannot remember things that not only didn't happen, but didn't happen decades before I was born. In any event, from your link:

The contemporary historical assessment is that the Morgenthau Plan was of no significance for later occupation and policy in Germany, but that Nazi propaganda on the subject had a lasting effect and that it is still used for propaganda purposes by extreme right-wing organizations.

Not really sure what your point was here, since the MP not only didn't happen, it wasn't massive murder or theft or rape based on ethnicity.

Why is your viewpoint any more valid than theirs' ?

Because it's mine.

Sorry, doesn't work that way.


Actually, that's *exactly* how it works. Every human on this planet, and even those in orbit, have the right and duty to determine what viewpoints are most valid for them.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Meanwhile, Russian propaganda is in full CNN/FOX mode.

Actually, it's more like Palestinian Authority mode.

 

[Rickshaw]

Remember the Morgenthau Plan?

Nope. I cannot remember things that not only didn't happen, but didn't happen decades before I was born. In any event, from your link:

The contemporary historical assessment is that the Morgenthau Plan was of no significance for later occupation and policy in Germany, but that Nazi propaganda on the subject had a lasting effect and that it is still used for propaganda purposes by extreme right-wing organizations.

Not really sure what your point was here, since the MP not only didn't happen, it wasn't massive murder or theft or rape based on ethnicity.

*WHOOSH*! Straight over your head. My point was that someone as senior as Henry Morgenthau in the US Government in the middle of the 20th century believed such a plan was a good idea. Just as various other senior American politicians in the previous century believed it was a good idea to wipe out the indigenous population of the United States.

Remember my point about many Americans believing "last week is ancient history". Appears you've proved it (again)...

Why is your viewpoint any more valid than theirs' ?

Because it's mine.

Sorry, doesn't work that way.


Actually, that's *exactly* how it works. Every human on this planet, and even those in orbit, have the right and duty to determine what viewpoints are most valid for them.


But you're trying to tell us what viewpoints are valid for Ukrainians, Crimeans and Russians, aren't you?

Since when were you a citizen of any of those states/nations? : :

 

[Rickshaw]

Meanwhile, Russian propaganda is in full CNN/FOX mode.

Actually, it's more like Palestinian Authority mode.

I suspect you think Fox and/or CNN are the best sources for information...

 

[Grey Havoc]

(Courtesy of Da_Vinci over at MilitaryPhotos.net)

 

[Orionblamblam]

*WHOOSH*! Straight over your head.

Perhaps you could explain how the Morganthau plan was ethnic genocide, conquest or theft. If you cannot, then it is, like so much of what you spout, irrelevant trolling.

 

[Orionblamblam]

When you have people like these in the government, you should be worried, not perplexed.

Clearly the best response to foreign politicians you don't like is to invade, part out the country and annex chunks of it.

EU supports these people. I wonder what the German public thinks about their government supporting the Nazis in Ukraine?

I wonder what German people - and others - who remember *actual* Nazis think when they hear every political party to the right of Trotsky being labeled as "Nazis."

 

[Rickshaw]

*WHOOSH*! Straight over your head.

Perhaps you could explain how the Morganthau plan was ethnic genocide, conquest or theft. If you cannot, then it is, like so much of what you spout, irrelevant trolling.

You really didn't read the source I provided, did you? The plan...

...advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area.

[Source]

How were they going to achieve that except by conquest or theft? : :

 

[Grey Havoc]

17.22 REUTERS - UKRAINE BORDER GUARDS SAY ONE OF THEIR OBSERVATION PLANES COMES UNDER FIRE ON PATROL ON CRIMEA REGIONAL BORDER, NOBODY HURT

 

[Orionblamblam]

How were they going to achieve that except by conquest or theft? : :

OK, it's obvious you're just trolling. Done with you.



Mods: Can we *please* get an IGNORE THE MORONS feature installed?

 

[Grey Havoc]

17.50 More details on the shooting of the observation plane.


The border guards said their patrol plane came under fire while flying at about 3,000 feet near the administrative border with Russian-occupied Crimea on Saturday.


No one was hurt when gunmen opened fire on the unarmed aircraft, a spokesman said. The Diamond light aircraft was flying three crew on an observation mission.


Moscow says it has no troops in Crimea beyond those normally stationed there with its Black Sea Fleet, an assertion ridiculed by the West.

 

[GTX]

17.22 REUTERS - UKRAINE BORDER GUARDS SAY ONE OF THEIR OBSERVATION PLANES COMES UNDER FIRE ON PATROL ON CRIMEA REGIONAL BORDER, NOBODY HURT

The problem here is that the shooting could have come from just about anyone.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The problem here is that the shooting could have come from just about anyone.

That's one of the problems with playing a game of geopolitical "I'm not touching you." You're carefully choreographed little dance can be upset by some joker wanting to spread a little chaos. Or just drunk.

 

[CJGibson]

Or just drunk.

Apparently that's how Ukraine gained Crimea in the first place - a tired and emotional Nikita Khrushchev gifted it.

Chris

 

[shedofdread]

Some of the media speculation about this situation rather brings to mind of this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IEwBrJzhlg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[bobbymike]

Ukrainian 80th and 95th Airborne Regiments Deploy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6blKRuLfN84

 

[Orionblamblam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoYazAAScOE

 

[SOC]

Bunch of videos reportedly showing Ukrainian units beginning to deploy.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-08/ukraines-military-mobilizes-prepares-combat-trucks-apcs-tanks-rolling-out

 

[bigvlada]

Clearly the best response to foreign politicians you don't like is to invade, part out the country and annex chunks of it.

So you are supporting the return of several US states to Mexico?
There is an alternative, you can always depose of any leftist president you don’t like and install some right wing junta. It’s cheaper. I see no difference between US and Russian (Soviet) foreign policy.

I wonder what German people - and others - who remember *actual* Nazis think when they hear every political party to the right of Trotsky being labeled as "Nazis."

First picture is photo of Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of Svoboda. Any similarities with unsuccessful Austrian painter are superficial.
In WW2 there were a dozen or so quisling movements in Yugoslavia. After the fall of Berlin Wall, a lot of dissidents returned to the Balkans, including those who had some family members in some of these organizations. When you worship people like Dragomir Mihajlovic, Ante Pavelic or Momcilo Djujic (a chetnik voivoda who fled to US and died a free man there) as part of your party program, you are a nazi.
Ukrainian version of a quisling is Stepan Bandera, and yes, Svoboda supports his views.
You don’t seem to grasp the gravity of the situation, and the rise of the far right movements in Europe. For instance, every year, the followers of Serbian chetnik movement have they festival on the Ravna Gora hill. In Croatia, the same festivities that glorify the Ustaša movement are held in town of Čavoglave. A lot of teenagers visit those festivities. Both Serbian and Croatian governments do nothing to suppress those movements.
Hell, current Serbian president is Tomislav Nikolic, a chetnik voivoda, and ruling coalition is consisted of Slobodan Milosevic’s Socialist Party and Progressive party, which took almost all of the members of Serbian far right Serbian Radical Party of Vojislav Šešelj. But they are doing everything the EU tells them to do so they are acceptable although their party had paramilitaries in Bosnia and Croatia. They are trying to rehabilitate Dragomir Mihalovic and repackage him as anticommunist fighter only, never mind the mass murders.
That kind of thinking (the far right will be a well behaved parliamentary party) was present in 1933 too, and we know the consequences.
Members of the Ukrainian Wafen SS division Galizia fought in Yugoslavia, and fled to the west. They were given refuge in Britain and Canada because „they fought against the communism“. That kind of attitude towards the far right spawned the situation where you have a falangist in IOC and an officer of the ss as Secretary General of the UN.
Here’s two articles about Svoboda and Right Sector.
http://southsideantifa.blogspot.sk/2014/03/who-are-ukraines-fascists.html
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-dark-side-of-the-ukraine-revolt-the-rise-of-the-quasi-fascists#.UxsCmhAw1LZ

Second one is a photo of the last page of the February 21st agreement, between deposed president Yanukovitch and the opposition. The Russian observer didn’t sign the document probably because of the Svoboda party.
Right Sector paramilitary rejected the deal, and 24 hours later, we have "liberator" painting on the front wall of government building. The guy in the third picture is hanging the sign with the name of Stepan Bandera.
Not the kind of atmosphere in which you have to pick an interim government that should represent all regions of Ukraine.
Fourth picture is group photo of Vitali Klitschko, leader of UDAR; Radoslaw Sikorski, Foreign Minister of Poland; Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Foreign Minister of Germany;Oleh Tyahnybok, and Arseniy Yatsenyuk, member of the Batkivshchyna party of Yulia Tymoshenko.
You still don’t see any Nazis, do you? I see a German foreign minister signing a documents with a nazi party and German prime minister supporting the government with Nazis in it. I don’t think that’s the platform on which they won the last elections.
So, how much is the Polish and German foreign minister signature worth these days? 12 hours? A full day?

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a more light hearted note: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236054-2nd-attempt-at-the-Ukraine-discussion-thread&p=7078604&viewfull=1#post7078604

 

[Orionblamblam]

Clearly the best response to foreign politicians you don't like is to invade, part out the country and annex chunks of it.

So you are supporting the return of several US states to Mexico?

Not really sure how you draw that conclusion.

I see no difference between US and Russian (Soviet) foreign policy.

Uh-huh. And has, within living memory, the US invaded a neighbor and annexed chunks of their territory?

You don’t seem to grasp the gravity of the situation, and the rise of the far right movements in Europe.

From the perspective of European history... it's just a natural part of the swing of the pendulum of history. For generations much of Europe has been under the boot heel of the far left; now there are some less-far-left movements such as you are complaining about.

Of course, it would be nice if Europe could get some *real* far-right movements, such as the Libertarians or Objectivists. But Europe seems mired in Big Government Solutions.

Both Serbian and Croatian governments do nothing to suppress those movements.

And what movements should be "suppressed?" And what happens when you suppress movements?

Not the kind of atmosphere in which you have to pick an interim government that should represent all regions of Ukraine.

And so... Putin should do it?

Look: if you want to get rid of fascists, sending a commie stooge to prove the fascists fears true is not the way to do it. If you want to *embolden* fascists, having foreigners come in and chop up your country would seem to do the job nicely.

Support of the Russian conquest of Crimea is, in effect, support of Nazis.

 

[bobbymike]

Clearly the best response to foreign politicians you don't like is to invade, part out the country and annex chunks of it.

So you are supporting the return of several US states to Mexico?

Not really sure how you draw that conclusion.

I see no difference between US and Russian (Soviet) foreign policy.

Uh-huh. And has, within living memory, the US invaded a neighbor and annexed chunks of their territory?

You don’t seem to grasp the gravity of the situation, and the rise of the far right movements in Europe.

From the perspective of European history... it's just a natural part of the swing of the pendulum of history. For generations much of Europe has been under the boot heel of the far left; now there are some less-far-left movements such as you are complaining about.

Of course, it would be nice if Europe could get some *real* far-right movements, such as the Libertarians or Objectivists. But Europe seems mired in Big Government Solutions.

Both Serbian and Croatian governments do nothing to suppress those movements.

And what movements should be "suppressed?" And what happens when you suppress movements?

Not the kind of atmosphere in which you have to pick an interim government that should represent all regions of Ukraine.

And so... Putin should do it?

Look: if you want to get rid of fascists, sending a commie stooge to prove the fascists fears true is not the way to do it. If you want to *embolden* fascists, having foreigners come in and chop up your country would seem to do the job nicely.

Support of the Russian conquest of Crimea is, in effect, support of Nazis.

As the saying goes - Fascism is coming to America but keeps landing in Europe.

 

[Avimimus]

Fascism has existed to varying degrees in every European country and in America.

The question is - how much security and transparency of elections can you have under these circumstances? Violent radicals have prevent any chance of us seeing just what proportion of the population is pro-fascist and we can't be confident that any side will be good at protecting minorities (or its opponents).

Meanwhile people from the outside pile their support on a side because the media says-so, the other side was an enemy during that stupid 20th century Cold War, and the CIA has excessive cash for covert ops - while very few such people actually have a clue of what the real issues are or the actual experience of Ukrainians.

...and one way or another an Oligarch gets fat on the chaos which provides ample distraction and division to prevent anti-corruption laws.

You guys do realise that an Independent Crimea isn't in Russian interests and funding dissidents typically isn't in American interests don't you? Big budgets and little benefits...

 

[GTX]

Meanwhile people from the outside pile their support on a side because the media says-so, the other side was an enemy during that stupid 20th century Cold War, ... while very few such people actually have a clue of what the real issues are or the actual experience of Ukrainians.

Exactly! Unfortunately, I think this is also not limited to the general public. I think more than a few governments have also been caught up in the same.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Fascism has existed to varying degrees in every European country and in America.

Yeah, but if you point out the fascist tendencies of the likes of Woodrow Wilson or FDR, some people get snippy.

Meanwhile people from the outside pile their support on a side because the media says-so,

Actually, people pile their *opposition* to one side because that side is clearly acting in a villainous manner. Most people not really involved have as little knowledge of - or interest in - Ukrainian internal politics as they had in Egyptian or Syrian politics. But people can still tell that one side in particular is acting really badly.

And there's this: if Ukrainian politics has a fascist side... basically, who cares? What people do with or to *themselves* is of a fundamentally far lower interest level to what people do to *others.* And while Europeans (or Africans, or Asians) segregating themselves into monumentally arbitrary tribal groups is basically not newsworthy, one European nation invading and annexing another *is* newsworthy, especially if it appears to be a trend for that invading nation.

You guys do realise that an Independent Crimea isn't in Russian interests

And that's why few people actually expect a truly independent Crimea, but instead de facto annexation.

 

[Rickshaw]

Uh-huh. And has, within living memory, the US invaded a neighbor and annexed chunks of their territory?

Ah, "Last week is ancient history to many Americans...," again.

We should not forget the US annexation of the Hawaiian Islands nor Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Cuba, the Virgin Islands, Wake Island, American Samoa, the Panama Canal Zone nor most of the west of their nation. "Manifest Destiny" and all that...

Oh and before you claim "it's not in 'living memory'", the annexation of the US Pacific Territories occurred in 1947, while the Northern Pacific Territories (North Marianas Islands) joined the United States in 1978, both of which are within, "living memory". :

Ain't history a bitch? Always reminding you how black your nation's own bottom is? ;D ;D

 

[Orionblamblam]

Always reminding you how black your nation's own bottom is? ;D ;D

Ah. Racism. Yet another reason to ignore you.

 

[GTX]

Racism? No! More of a reference to:

I suspect.

 

[bobbymike]

http://defense-update.com/20140309_russia-welcomes-us-destroyer-truxtun-moving-bastion-anti-ship-missiles-crimea.html

 

[Orionblamblam]

Blocked By Sunken Russian Ships, Ukraine's Navy Stays Defiant

The Ochakov — a Soviet-era warship decommissioned in 2011 and set to be sold for scrap — was towed to the entrance to Lake Donuzlav on Crimea’s western coast from the Russian base at Sevastopol on Thursday and blown up.
It capsized and, along with two smaller Russian vessels, is now blocking the narrow gap between two spits of land, its hull beaten by rough Black Sea waves.

Note: now there are *three* ships blocking off those Ukrainian naval vessels.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I suspect.

Given the troll-in-questions predilection for nonsensical irrelevancy, it's hard to tell. And at this point, harder to givadam.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Note: now there are *three* ships blocking off those Ukrainian naval vessels.

Its a pretty silly strategy by the Russians. Don't they want to drive the Ukrainian forces and government out of the Crimea? So why are they blockading one of the Ukrainian Navy ships so it can't escape? Shouldn't they be offering it a port tug, free fuel, a course to Odessa? Blocking the port is something they should do AFTER the Ukrainians put to sea so they can never return.

This Russian gambit seems to be very poorly thought out and planned. The Ukrainian's response of just sitting tight has confounded the Russian strategy of using threatening force to try and drive them out.

 

[SOC]

We should not forget the US annexation of the Hawaiian Islands nor Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Cuba, the Virgin Islands, Wake Island, American Samoa, the Panama Canal Zone nor most of the west of their nation. "Manifest Destiny" and all that...

Hawaii: the Queen was deposed by a bunch of white immigrant dudes, not the US government.
Puerto Rico: taken from Spain after their defeat in the Spanish-American war. Don't look now but a majority of Puerto Ricans support actual statehood.
Philippines: taken from Spain after their defeat in the Spanish-American war.
Cuba: remained occupied and under varying degrees of control after the Spanish-American war but was "independent" in 1902. Yeah, that one we totally dorked up.
Virgin Islands: bought from Denmark.
Wake Island: first permanent settlers - Pan Am.
American Samoa: acquired through the Tripartite Convention in 1899.
Panama Canal Zone: granted to the US by the Panamanian government through treaty.

So where's all the nefarious activity by the US government i nevery one of these cases, with the admitted exception of screwing up Cuba?

 

[Rickshaw]

Always reminding you how black your nation's own bottom is? ;D ;D

Ah. Racism. Yet another reason to ignore you.

"Racism"? Where? As GTX has pointed out, it's a reference to "pots" telling "kettles" that their bottoms are "blacker" than theirs'.

You really are getting desperate now. What's wrong, unwilling to own your own nation's history? : :

 

[Rickshaw]

We should not forget the US annexation of the Hawaiian Islands nor Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Cuba, the Virgin Islands, Wake Island, American Samoa, the Panama Canal Zone nor most of the west of their nation. "Manifest Destiny" and all that...

Hawaii: the Queen was deposed by a bunch of white immigrant dudes, not the US government.
Puerto Rico: taken from Spain after their defeat in the Spanish-American war. Don't look now but a majority of Puerto Ricans support actual statehood.
Philippines: taken from Spain after their defeat in the Spanish-American war.
Cuba: remained occupied and under varying degrees of control after the Spanish-American war but was "independent" in 1902. Yeah, that one we totally dorked up.
Virgin Islands: bought from Denmark.
Wake Island: first permanent settlers - Pan Am.
American Samoa: acquired through the Tripartite Convention in 1899.
Panama Canal Zone: granted to the US by the Panamanian government through treaty.

So where's all the nefarious activity by the US government i nevery one of these cases, with the admitted exception of screwing up Cuba?

What you are missing is that the point being made is not about the method of acquisition but that these territories were annexed, something that OBB claimed hadn't happened. Annexation is a political act, whereby territories acquired through one means or another are made part of the acquiring nation's territory, politically.

The Panama Canal Zone is an interesting case in point. You seem to be implying that the "granting" of the zone was done freely and fairly. Apart from that fact that Panama was created by US pressure on Columbia to allow it to secede in 1903. It's creation was definitely one of the murkier episodes of US interference in Latin American politics. Then the US pressured the Panamanian government to hand over the Canal Zone, which was so vital to US naval plans.

Then we have the example of the Hawaiian islands:

After William McKinley won the presidential election in 1896, Hawaii's annexation to the U.S. was again discussed. The previous president, Grover Cleveland, was a friend of Queen Liliʻuokalani. McKinley was open to persuasion by U.S. expansionists and by annexationists from Hawaii. He met with three annexationists from Hawaii: Lorrin Thurston, Francis March Hatch and William Ansel Kinney. After negotiations, in June 1897, Secretary of State John Sherman agreed to a treaty of annexation with these representatives of the Republic of Hawaii.[72]
The treaty was never ratified by the U.S. Senate. Instead, despite the opposition of a majority of Native Hawaiians,[73] the Newlands Resolution was used to annex the Republic to the United States and it became the Territory of Hawaii. The Newlands Resolution was passed by the House June 15, 1898, by a vote of 209 to 91, and by the Senate on July 6, 1898, by a vote of 42 to 21.

[Source]
Appears the Hawaiians had little choice over whether or not they were become part of the United States. An excellent example of US imperialism, I think.

While interesting, it is not material to the point being made - the US has annexed other territories, often against the will of their inhabitants and done so in "living memory".

 

[Rickshaw]

Racism? No! More of a reference to:

I suspect.

Nothing suspicious about it. It is an obvious reference to it but we need to remember, OBB is just looking for excuses to run away and hide from his own nation's history. : :

 

[Avimimus]

Isn't it nice when tongue-in-cheek deliberate misinterpretations and things getting personal can allow us all to hide from world issues? ;D

So much more relaxing.